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ICE putting LGBT and disabled immigrants in solitary...

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri May 24, 2019 9:09 am

Ifreann wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:No, who would enforce our borders? Not everyone buys into the ancom open borders nonsense.

Two points. One: ICE don't "enforce" your borders. That's not their job. They enforce immigration and customs law. It's literally their name. Do you know who does "enforce" your borders? CBP. Customs and Border Protection. And two: ICE was founded in 2003. You really think that without ICE, America would have open borders?


ICE actually does many functions once done by the Customs Service (founded in 1789) and the INS (1933). It did not appear out of thin air in 2003. It was formed from existing law enforcement.

Admittedly having CBP and ICE as separate agencies is stupid. They should be merged.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri May 24, 2019 9:14 am

Novus America wrote:Admittedly having CBP and ICE as separate agencies is stupid. They should be merged.

Agreed, and I would say that enforcing customs law still falls in the category of enforcing our borders, especially when they arrest illegal aliens who managed to cross the border and enter the country.
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Skyhooked
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Postby Skyhooked » Fri May 24, 2019 9:19 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Ifreann wrote:But if America abolishes ICE, who will torture vulnerable people?

No, who would enforce our borders? Not everyone buys into the ancom open borders nonsense.


I, a libertarian left pro-guns guy, buy it completely and entirely, so let's just get rid of ICE and celebrate it with some whiskey with ice. But it would be better to get rid of discrimination, the cause, not the symptome.

How do we do that? Affirmative action is... not the correct way we do it. Cultural heritage gotta be preserved too. We need social equality, where different people have equal rights. But that's another story.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri May 24, 2019 9:21 am

Galloism wrote:ICE is not fascist, and stop misusing the word fascist.

This has been a public service announcement.


That being said, solitary confinement is torture, and should be considered as such.


Segregation of certain detainees is necessary.
But should only been done when strictly necessary.
Or when the detainee requests it.

Here I think it appears it might be being done excessively and we should correct that.
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri May 24, 2019 9:24 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Novus America wrote:Admittedly having CBP and ICE as separate agencies is stupid. They should be merged.

Agreed, and I would say that enforcing customs law still falls in the category of enforcing our borders, especially when they arrest illegal aliens who managed to cross the border and enter the country.


True. The issue is we have two often redundant agencies for it.
Well the DEA could probably be merged in too.
Last edited by Novus America on Fri May 24, 2019 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri May 24, 2019 10:24 am

Novus America wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Agreed, and I would say that enforcing customs law still falls in the category of enforcing our borders, especially when they arrest illegal aliens who managed to cross the border and enter the country.


True. The issue is we have two often redundant agencies for it.
Well the DEA could probably be merged in too.

I think the DEA should be significantly scaled down to be honest. Drug prohibition is not working. (Though this is a topic for another thread, and I don't want to threadjack.)
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri May 24, 2019 10:29 am

Novus America wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Two points. One: ICE don't "enforce" your borders. That's not their job. They enforce immigration and customs law. It's literally their name. Do you know who does "enforce" your borders? CBP. Customs and Border Protection. And two: ICE was founded in 2003. You really think that without ICE, America would have open borders?


ICE actually does many functions once done by the Customs Service (founded in 1789) and the INS (1933). It did not appear out of thin air in 2003. It was formed from existing law enforcement.

You mean America didn't have open borders before ICE was formed? But...that means that ICE being abolished isn't "ancom open borders nonsense"...

Admittedly having CBP and ICE as separate agencies is stupid. They should be merged.

Why? They don't really do the same thing.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri May 24, 2019 11:04 am

Ifreann wrote:
Novus America wrote:
ICE actually does many functions once done by the Customs Service (founded in 1789) and the INS (1933). It did not appear out of thin air in 2003. It was formed from existing law enforcement.

You mean America didn't have open borders before ICE was formed? But...that means that ICE being abolished isn't "ancom open borders nonsense"...

Admittedly having CBP and ICE as separate agencies is stupid. They should be merged.

Why? They don't really do the same thing.


It did not. But simply “abolishing ICE” does create problems in it would eliminate functions that have been needed hundreds and of years.
It is a meme, not a thought out policy.

And yes they do a lot of the same things.
Both are customs agencies. Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
Last edited by Novus America on Fri May 24, 2019 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri May 24, 2019 11:08 am

Stay classy, ICE. -_-

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Fri May 24, 2019 11:26 am

Perhaps the supervision to the concentration summer camps should be delegated to a different authority that is more sensible in their handling of the internees.

Cruel and unusual practices seem to be widespread in ICE.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Fri May 24, 2019 11:29 am

Novus America wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You mean America didn't have open borders before ICE was formed? But...that means that ICE being abolished isn't "ancom open borders nonsense"...


Why? They don't really do the same thing.


It did not. But simply “abolishing ICE” does create problems in it would eliminate functions that have been needed hundreds and of years.

The same way that abolishing the Customs Service and the INS eliminated those functions. America currently has no immigration or customs services, clearly.
It is a meme, not a thought out policy.

And yes they do a lot of the same things.
Both are customs agencies. Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

And both the army and the navy do war.
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Nationalist Teksas
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nationalist Teksas » Fri May 24, 2019 11:42 am

Surely frozen water isn't *that* bad.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Fri May 24, 2019 11:51 am

No one said fascism will come to America with an announcement.
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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Fri May 24, 2019 11:52 am

I support having secure borders and legal immigration/asylum seeking, along with vetting of potential immigrants to keep out criminals and terrorists (and before anyone jumps on me, I do realize that the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals and terrorists and just want to seek a better life).

What I don’t support is human rights abuse, and this crosses the line.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Fri May 24, 2019 11:58 am

-Ocelot- wrote:No one said fascism will come to America with an announcement.


Since the departure of Darth Bannon that possibility seems to have passed for good.
Last edited by Nakena on Fri May 24, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri May 24, 2019 12:01 pm

-Ocelot- wrote:No one said fascism will come to America with an announcement.

Abuse by the state is not inherently fascism. Fascism is an actual doctrine you know.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Fri May 24, 2019 12:10 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:No one said fascism will come to America with an announcement.

Abuse by the state is not inherently fascism. Fascism is an actual doctrine you know.

Abuse by the state is a little light of a term, though. This is more like rounding up the undesirables and putting them in torture camps.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri May 24, 2019 12:10 pm

Xmara wrote:I support having secure borders and legal immigration/asylum seeking, along with vetting of potential immigrants to keep out criminals and terrorists (and before anyone jumps on me, I do realize that the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals and terrorists and just want to seek a better life).

What I don’t support is human rights abuse, and this crosses the line.


Therein lies the rub. Yes. Having border control and immigration vetting is important to every country. Legal channels and all. But this? Not cool.
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Fri May 24, 2019 12:13 pm

My god, this is fucking horrifying. Solitary confinement should be an absolute last resort, used temporarily when someone presents a real and serious threat to other inmates. I can hardly blame Rivera for attempting suicide after a month; I doubt that I could even last a week.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Fri May 24, 2019 12:19 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Abuse by the state is not inherently fascism. Fascism is an actual doctrine you know.

Abuse by the state is a little light of a term, though. This is more like rounding up the undesirables and putting them in torture camps.

Rounding up illegal aliens is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society. This is not fascism; this is an agency that requires reform to make it more humane.
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Call me Liber for short.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri May 24, 2019 12:20 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Novus America wrote:
It did not. But simply “abolishing ICE” does create problems in it would eliminate functions that have been needed hundreds and of years.

The same way that abolishing the Customs Service and the INS eliminated those functions. America currently has no immigration or customs services, clearly.
It is a meme, not a thought out policy.

And yes they do a lot of the same things.
Both are customs agencies. Customs and Border Protection and Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

And both the army and the navy do war.


The Customs Service was never abolished. It was merged with the Border Patrol.

So if you want to “abolish ICE” by merging it with CBP cool, because that is the same thing I am saying.

See memes are not a well thought out policy.

Instead of screaming “abolish ICE” how about an actually thought plan on how to reorganize our Customs and Immigration functions?

And most countries do fine with just one Customs agency.
Why does the US need two?
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri May 24, 2019 12:34 pm

-Ocelot- wrote:No one said fascism will come to America with an announcement.


Umm you clearly have no understanding of Fascism.
It is a complex ideology. Not just one policy you do not like.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Nationalist Teksas
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nationalist Teksas » Fri May 24, 2019 12:36 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Abuse by the state is a little light of a term, though. This is more like rounding up the undesirables and putting them in torture camps.

Rounding up illegal aliens is not on par with a massive purge of "undesirables" from society. This is not fascism; this is an agency that requires reform to make it more humane.

I will say, it is ironic that the organization responsible for vetting who gets into the country is in need of some serious vetting.
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Postby Conserative Morality » Fri May 24, 2019 12:39 pm

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:No one said fascism will come to America with an announcement.

Abuse by the state is not inherently fascism. Fascism is an actual doctrine you know.

"Fascism is an actual doctrine"

That's pretty generous to fascism.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri May 24, 2019 12:40 pm

Solitary confinement is torture and is not an acceptable practice under any circumstances. The US Supreme court has already ruled that for torture, universal jurisdiction applies. (They did so in response to south American torturers asking what jurisdiction the US had to try and convict them for torturing south americans in south America.) These workers can theoretically find themselves arrested by any US authority including state authorities, even if the crime did not occur in their state.

ICE workers may want to avoid blue states.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri May 24, 2019 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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