NationStates

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Duhon wrote:
Indeed. Which is why you say shoot them all. Or torture them till they can't be recognized as human anymore (even as dirty filthy foreigners they still have humanity, and you can't have that, only you are human), then shoot them.

Nobody has said any such thing. Stop fearmongering.

The logic is inexorable, your gagging the only reason you won't treat them any harsher.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Ifreann wrote:I've never found "deserve" to be a useful word. Who cares what people deserve? The government shouldn't torture people, even if they "deserve" it. The government should treat people humanely even if they don't "deserve" it.

I care what people deserve. There's no reason for us to waste our time money and resources on people who aren't our citizens. Nobody forced them to come here, so they don't get to make demands. As I've said, if they don't like it they're free to not come here. We will continue on without them.

Everyone deserves basic human rights. And as you yourself admitted, they're our fucking problem if we're going to the trouble of putting them in camps. If you really were concerned about not wasting time, money, and resources, there's better things they could be used for and you could leave these people the fuck alone.

Duhon wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
No one is asking for special treatment. Just a modicum if respect, which we pretty much afford to all people, including criminals.

But American criminals are still human. Foreigners, by the very definition of the term, they can't possibly be human. Oh, and American criminals in solitary confinement too. Not human at all.

One would think that’s the logic.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Ifreann wrote:I've never found "deserve" to be a useful word. Who cares what people deserve? The government shouldn't torture people, even if they "deserve" it. The government should treat people humanely even if they don't "deserve" it.

I care what people deserve. There's no reason for us to waste our time money and resources on people who aren't our citizens.

Yes there is. Do you think that you will be safe if your government is allowed to torture people?

Nobody forced them to come here, so they don't get to make demands. As I've said, if they don't like it they're free to not come here. We will continue on without them.

People being tortured in ICE custody are, by definition, not free.

Necroghastia wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:I care what people deserve. There's no reason for us to waste our time money and resources on people who aren't our citizens. Nobody forced them to come here, so they don't get to make demands. As I've said, if they don't like it they're free to not come here. We will continue on without them.

Everyone deserves basic human rights. And as you yourself admitted, they're our fucking problem if we're going to the trouble of putting them in camps. If you really were concerned about not wasting time, money, and resources, there's better things they could be used for and you could leave these people the fuck alone.

Why won't they just go home?

Necroghastia wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:No, they should be treated however we choose. If they don't like it, they don't have to come here. There's no reason for us to show respect to people who did nothing to deserve it. Walking across the border doesn't get you special treatment.

That's horrifying. Are people not worthy of basic dignity simply by virtue of being people? And hell, you're still dodging the main subject, which is that people in these camps are being singled out for being disabled or LGBT. What's your justification for that?

Anyone who is not a citizen of our country is not our concern. I don't believe that they should be singled out. So here's how we solve the problem. Send them all home. And then no one is being held in solitary.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:
That's horrifying. Are people not worthy of basic dignity simply by virtue of being people? And hell, you're still dodging the main subject, which is that people in these camps are being singled out for being disabled or LGBT. What's your justification for that?

Anyone who is not a citizen of our country is not our concern. I don't believe that they should be singled out. So here's how we solve the problem. Send them all home. And then no one is being held in solitary.

This is a voice of reason.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:
That's horrifying. Are people not worthy of basic dignity simply by virtue of being people? And hell, you're still dodging the main subject, which is that people in these camps are being singled out for being disabled or LGBT. What's your justification for that?

Anyone who is not a citizen of our country is not our concern. I don't believe that they should be singled out. So here's how we solve the problem. Send them all home. And then no one is being held in solitary.

How do you think we should determine if they are a citizen or not?

Ifreann wrote:

Novus America wrote:
Many people are screaming “abolish ICE”.
It is a common meme.

Ah, so "screaming" here means "saying something I disagree with".

But good you agree it is stupid.

I don't, ICE should be abolished and everyone associated with it investigated to establish their complicity in acts of torture such as these.

And yes waste and redundancy in the government is common.
That is why we should look at reducing the number of redundant organizations and consolidate many.

But they're not redundant. They do different things. Ports of entry don't have one customs check by CBP and then another by ICE. Other agencies can assume their duties on an interim basis.

Glad to hear you want to fire thousands of people as an act of collective punishment.

Other agencies like CBP?
They do a lot of the same things.

And it several people in Congress already proposed they be merged.

We do not need two Customs agencies.

Rea wrote:LGBT people are often fleeing hostile settings, and countries which are far less tolerant of their kind than the US. To have them mix with the general populace from said hostile setting would be exposing them to a far greater risk of harm. Would you really put a transgender woman in the same general populace as a bunch of young men fresh off the streets of Colombia and Afghanistan?

This is why no one likes Conservatives.

Because they're all fake as Liberals.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:
That's horrifying. Are people not worthy of basic dignity simply by virtue of being people? And hell, you're still dodging the main subject, which is that people in these camps are being singled out for being disabled or LGBT. What's your justification for that?

Anyone who is not a citizen of our country is not our concern. I don't believe that they should be singled out. So here's how we solve the problem. Send them all home. And then no one is being held in solitary.

By that logic, no one who’s a foreigner should visit the US then.

Ifreann wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:I care what people deserve. There's no reason for us to waste our time money and resources on people who aren't our citizens.

Yes there is. Do you think that you will be safe if your government is allowed to torture people?

Nobody forced them to come here, so they don't get to make demands. As I've said, if they don't like it they're free to not come here. We will continue on without them.

People being tortured in ICE custody are, by definition, not free.

Yes, because I don't buy into fearmongering nonsense. When this is happening to US citizens who didn't commit a crime, I'll be concerned. And they're only in ICE custody because they came here. They could've chosen not to. I don't feel sympathy for people who choose to do something.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Anyone who is not a citizen of our country is not our concern. I don't believe that they should be singled out. So here's how we solve the problem. Send them all home. And then no one is being held in solitary.

By that logic, no one who’s a foreigner should visit the US then.

They're free to come and visit. Tourism and immigration are not the same thing.

Conserative Morality wrote:

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Abuse by the state is not inherently fascism. Fascism is an actual doctrine you know.

"Fascism is an actual doctrine"

That's pretty generous to fascism.

I really don't care how "generous" a fact is. Fascism is an ideology, with a specific doctrine or doctrines behind it. It is terrible ideology, but a specific one. It is not just a single abusive policy not liked by a leftist.

Galloism wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Anyone who is not a citizen of our country is not our concern. I don't believe that they should be singled out. So here's how we solve the problem. Send them all home. And then no one is being held in solitary.

How do you think we should determine if they are a citizen or not?

By the methods we already use to decide who's a citizen and who isn't.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Ifreann wrote:Yes there is. Do you think that you will be safe if your government is allowed to torture people?

People being tortured in ICE custody are, by definition, not free.

Yes, because I don't buy into fearmongering nonsense. When this is happening to US citizens who didn't commit a crime, I'll be concerned. And they're only in ICE custody because they came here. They could've chosen not to. I don't feel sympathy for people who choose to do something.

How many Americans are in solitary confinement? Take a guess.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
By that logic, no one who’s a foreigner should visit the US then.

They're free to come and visit. Tourism and immigration are not the same thing.

How do you figure they’ll ask for asylum, for example, when they come to the US? Many of them are, and the reason they cross the border is to be able to ask for asylum, which can only be done once in the country. How exactly you figure we shouldn’t care about how they’re been treated if they’re awaiting to have their petitions for asylum heard? How are they not our concern? Why are you ok with other human beings been tortured when they’ve committed no crime worthy of that treatment?

Necroghastia wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:I care what people deserve. There's no reason for us to waste our time money and resources on people who aren't our citizens. Nobody forced them to come here, so they don't get to make demands. As I've said, if they don't like it they're free to not come here. We will continue on without them.

Everyone deserves basic human rights. And as you yourself admitted, they're our fucking problem if we're going to the trouble of putting them in camps. If you really were concerned about not wasting time, money, and resources, there's better things they could be used for and you could leave these people the fuck alone.

Yep, they could be used for improving their own country. We owe them nothing. They are not owed the chance to come here.

Act a fool gurl act a fool.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Necroghastia wrote:Everyone deserves basic human rights. And as you yourself admitted, they're our fucking problem if we're going to the trouble of putting them in camps. If you really were concerned about not wasting time, money, and resources, there's better things they could be used for and you could leave these people the fuck alone.

Yep, they could be used for improving their own country. We owe them nothing. They are not owed the chance to come here.

I concede the US is under no obligation to accept every person seeking entry or asylum in the US. That’s true. But it’s not ok to mistreat people who are in your custody either.

Sounds like they are doing a pretty good job to me.

Don't try to illegally enter a country.

Galloism wrote:Thank you. One of the problems with people constantly misusing "fascist" and "communist" is that it's been worn out and now when actual legitimate fascists and communists show up, no one believes you when you tell them, because we repeatedly and thoughtlessly used it for the woman who said she wanted drug users arrested or the man who wanted government funded healthcare.

Sorry, personal pet peeve.

Except in this case, OP isn't talking about healthcare or drug policy. It's talking about an agency of the state imprisoning people under conditions of psychological torture because they don't meet some (arguably) right-wing and nationalist criteria for acceptability.

Sure, we can still vote in what is technically a multi-party system, so were not quite shitting like a duck yet, but walking and talking? It's at least debatable, especially when we've got an Administration which openly seeks a support base among authoritarian right-wing nationalists.

Crying wolf presents problems, true, but the equal and opposite danger is being the metaphorical frog in the slowly boiling pot.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:They're free to come and visit. Tourism and immigration are not the same thing.

How do you figure they’ll ask for asylum, for example, when they come to the US? Many of them are, and the reason they cross the border is to be able to ask for asylum, which can only be done once in the country. How exactly you figure we shouldn’t care about how they’re been treated if they’re awaiting to have their petitions for asylum heard? How are they not our concern? Why are you ok with other human beings been tortured when they’ve committed no crime worthy of that treatment?

I don't think we should take people for asylum. We spend enough of our money helping foreign countries. And as I've said before, I don't feel sympathy for people who put themselves in situations. The heroin junkie laying in a gutter down the street? Unless he was held down while a needle was forced into his arm, he people himself in that situation. (Note, this is just a hypothetical.)

Martinsburgia wrote:Sounds like they are doing a pretty good job to me.

Don't try to illegally enter a country.

There's a word for illegal entry into another country: invasion.

The Republic of Fore wrote:Easy solution, don't try to cross the border. We don't owe them anything.

No excuse to treat them like animals.