ICE putting LGBT and disabled immigrants in solitary...

[Nova Cyberia]

ICE is not fascist, and stop misusing the word fascist.

This has been a public service announcement.


That being said, solitary confinement is torture, and should be considered as such.

Pretty much this.

Liri is incorrect as always with his use of the term fascist.

ICE needs some reform to stamp out abuses such as this, but that being said I still don't see much of a reason to abandon immigration security and give in to the 'Abolish ICE' fetishists.

[Israeli Commonwealth]

Is the cost guard part of the armed forces? Also cite a link that they do that

The Coast Guard is considered one of the five armed forces yes. Still has nothing to do with ICE and you definitely shouldn’t put them on a pedestal.

Honestly I’d like for the military to not be put on a pedestal as well, ya the discounts are nice but that’s not what I did it for.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... e-they-are
https://theintercept.com/2018/04/11/imm ... e-ice-dhs/
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kzg ... nd-threats
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigr ... rs-n954781
https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... ble-abuses
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/04/som ... on-center/
https://www.aclu.org/other/words-prison ... use-prison
https://partners.vice.com/starz/starzpo ... on-system/
https://www.nsfogel.com/Articles/Inmate ... able.shtml
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/p ... abuse.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/half-sexual-a ... d=21892170
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zZvqFcUkj0
https://www.newsweek.com/prison-inmate- ... hts-723943

Thank you for the links. Also it is not ICE who is doing the rape in many cases, it is other detainees. So blame the mexicans, or he venezualians

[Fartsniffage]

The Coast Guard is considered one of the five armed forces yes. Still has nothing to do with ICE and you definitely shouldn’t put them on a pedestal.

Honestly I’d like for the military to not be put on a pedestal as well, ya the discounts are nice but that’s not what I did it for.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... e-they-are
https://theintercept.com/2018/04/11/imm ... e-ice-dhs/
https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/kzg ... nd-threats
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigr ... rs-n954781
https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-ri ... ble-abuses
https://theintercept.com/2018/03/04/som ... on-center/
https://www.aclu.org/other/words-prison ... use-prison
https://partners.vice.com/starz/starzpo ... on-system/
https://www.nsfogel.com/Articles/Inmate ... able.shtml
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/p ... abuse.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/half-sexual-a ... d=21892170
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5zZvqFcUkj0
https://www.newsweek.com/prison-inmate- ... hts-723943

Thank you for the links. Also it is not ICE who is doing the rape in many cases, it is other detainees. So blame the mexicans, or he venezualians

If I lock you up in a place with Rapey McFuckIsrealiCommonwealthInTheAss and then don't protect you from him properly while denying you your 2nd Amendment rights, do I not hold at least some responsibility?

[Israeli Commonwealth]

Thank you for the links. Also it is not ICE who is doing the rape in many cases, it is other detainees. So blame the mexicans, or he venezualians

If I lock you up in a place with Rapey McFuckIsrealiCommonwealthInTheAss and then don't protect you from him properly while denying you your 2nd Amendment rights, do I not hold at least some responsibility?

Yeah, you shouldn't be letting me stay. Easy fix, immediate deportation. You come. Oh you can't enter? Leave or die

[Senkaku]

If I lock you up in a place with Rapey McFuckIsrealiCommonwealthInTheAss and then don't protect you from him properly while denying you your 2nd Amendment rights, do I not hold at least some responsibility?

Yeah, you shouldn't be letting me stay. Easy fix, immediate deportation. You come. Oh you can't enter? Leave or die

So your solution to the problem may be different, but you agree that the organization doing the imprisoning-with-rapists here is ultimately also to blame.

[The Republic of Fore]

Let's be generous and say they only reported ten percent of cases. That's still 15,000 people, out of probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions of arrests.

you don't think thousands of people being wrongfully arrested with even less recourse than in the normal justice system is a problem?

A small failure rate is going to happen no matter what you're doing. Can't really be avoided, unless we don't arrest anyone. And that's not going to happen.

[The Republic of Fore]

I do understand the difference. But if It's unlikely, I'm not going to worry about it. As I said before, if we're worrying about things that are unlikely why do literally anything at all? Just stay in bed all day. But make sure you don't have a ceiling fan, it could fall off and crush you.

It's unlikely that your house will be broken into, but you do lock your doors.

No It's really not that unlikely. Especially in the area I live in.

[The Republic of Fore]

:D

Yes it is, It's our country. We can do whatever we want. The UN, or any other foreign body who tries to whine at us can shove their opinion up their airlock.

Sounds athortation and nightmearish but ok.

No. You do not treat people like that. End of story.

Or what? It's our country, we'll do what we like.

[The Republic of Fore]

Out of all the people they detain in a year, that's honestly not that much.

"This government agency is violating the human rights of so many people every year that them wrongfully violating the human rights of 1500 American citizens is not significant" is some fine suicide by words.

Oh no, a government agency is actually doing It's job for once. The horror! We're under no obligation to take any immigrants period.

[The Republic of Fore]

1. Why should we whine about what the US did if It's irrelevant that other nations have done it.
2. One happened several hundred years ago, and only keeps getting brought up because it makes middle class white people feel woke to act guilty over something they had nothing to do with.
3. That's still no reason for us to take them. Nothing that happens to any non US citizen is our issue.

It's a minor point in the meandering nonsense that has informed the notion that torture is acceptable if it is inflicted by the US on non US citizens, but, literally, economics don't work this way. Economic exchanges on the municipal level ripple to the state level and ripple to the national level in exactly the same way that economics ripples from municipal Brazil to municipal Japan -- i.e. things that happen to non US citizens is an issue for US citizens, often.

If you don't understand this, aside from any questions on your grasp of the English language, you should perhaps reconsider any and all political positions you have assumed under the laughably false assumption that citizenship determines the radius of affect.

Our economy has survived just fine without wasting resources on these people. Better in fact, considering we're hitting record low unemployment rates. And besides, any money we spend on them could be spent on our own citizens.

[Lamoni]

There's also the acts of child molestation, general abuse of both children and other detained people, the abuse of the LGBTQ+ and disabled as we're seeing in this thread, etc.

First thing, please cite a source. Second thing, what counts as abuse? They are arrested! They are not going to get world class food, perfect housing, a T.V, and an IPhone X, sorry! And abuse of LGBTTQQIIAA+++++ and disabled I doubt but I shall humor you and say it happened due to this whole thread being about it. Third thing, it is rare for that to happen as much as it is rare for cops to shoot black people without reason. ICE and border patrol do much good for the country and hating them is like hating the armed forces. Shame on all who think that. And go to hell.

*** Warning for Flaming ***

Telling other users to "Go to Hell," crosses the line. You can disagree with people without insulting them. You should also read the rules.

[Wallenburg]

This is why ICE needs to be dismantled. It is rotten to its fucking core. It kidnaps and abuses children. It works to deport legal residents and even US citizens that have the wrong kind of last name. It tortures people simply for the pleasure of watching other people, especially LGBT people, the disabled, and the mentally ill, suffer. There is no justification for preserving this institution of violence and bigotry.

Solitary is too much and should be revised, but this was never going to be pretty. These people are as criminal as any other criminal, because they broke a law that is reasonable and grounded and were caught doing it. I can't say I don't have sympathy for them because those conditions really do sound poor, but let's not pretend we're talking about innocents.

Seeking asylum is a crime? Fuck, I learn something new every day.

[Novus America]

This is why ICE needs to be dismantled. It is rotten to its fucking core. It kidnaps and abuses children. It works to deport legal residents and even US citizens that have the wrong kind of last name. It tortures people simply for the pleasure of watching other people, especially LGBT people, the disabled, and the mentally ill, suffer. There is no justification for preserving this institution of violence and bigotry.

Solitary is too much and should be revised, but this was never going to be pretty. These people are as criminal as any other criminal, because they broke a law that is reasonable and grounded and were caught doing it. I can't say I don't have sympathy for them because those conditions really do sound poor, but let's not pretend we're talking about innocents.

Seeking asylum is a crime? Fuck, I learn something new every day.

Any evidence it tortures and arrests people just for the lols?
As the article I posted suggested this is more a matter of ICE ERO being overwhelmed by a dramatic shift in the nature of migration and a sudden increase in immigration numbers. It appears it does not have the resources to always see what happens (these detainees are held by other organizations).

And please review the actual arguments in the thread, not just skim the OP and repost the same thing a bunch of people did that has already been addressed.
Even if you believe in open borders (I addressed why this would be a disaster) ICE does not only deal with enforcing immigration laws.
The majority of ICE does not do immigration enforcement. Even if ERO was “rotten to the core” what about HSI? Do you even know the difference?

It deals with all illegal movement of persons and goods across borders. Including human trafficking and arms trafficking.
Please first review how ICE is organized and structured.

[The South Falls]

This is rather barbaric, but I have no sympathy for newcomers. Americans are well known for their love of torture, and we persecute each other on a daily basis. They are simply getting an education on what it means to be American.

How are they going to even begin to function in an unfamiliar nation if their mind is shattered from months of solitary? Solitary confinement is absolutely torture.

[Israeli Commonwealth]

Yeah, you shouldn't be letting me stay. Easy fix, immediate deportation. You come. Oh you can't enter? Leave or die

So your solution to the problem may be different, but you agree that the organization doing the imprisoning-with-rapists here is ultimately also to blame.

Yes we can agree there

[Ifreann]

I didn't say only.


It is when you're not planning to give them a trial or even charge them.

It's much easier to abuse people when you don't give them any of the rights and protections associated with a criminal trial, yes.


I'm not making any claim about the average length of detention. You are. I've pointed out that the source you provided refers to 2012. No part of this means that I must now go off and find evidence to support your claims. I don't "lose" because I'm not doing your homework for you.


I don't care what the average length of detention is, so feel free to just stop bringing it up and I'll stop pointing out that your numbers are from 2012.

So they are not “camps” for Hispanic immigrants.
They are detention facilities for a small percentage of illegal immigrants of various origins.

They're camps for Hispanic illegal immigrants. Trump wants them to be abused so that other people will be too scared to enter America.

And they are being charged, though not always with a formal criminal charge (though often they actually are charged) with migrating without authorization and given a hearing.

They aren't being charged and don't get a trial or any of the associated legal protections.

They are not be held on basis of belong to a certain ethnic group, but because they immigrated without authorization. Most are held a fairly short time.

How many white people do you think get stopped on the streets by ICE and ordered to prove their citizenship?

The get a hearing. Oh and they am leave anytime the wish if the want to return to their home countries too BTW.

Yeah, you can just walk out of a "detention facility" and be free to go.

Yes we could and should definitely improve the process. Make visa overstays a crime as well, so we can charge them formally with a crime too. Fine with me.

People are being tortured and killed and you want to change policies and start throwing the victims of that abuse in prisons. You don't seem to have any interest in bringing the perpetrators to justice.

[Novus America]

So they are not “camps” for Hispanic immigrants.
They are detention facilities for a small percentage of illegal immigrants of various origins.

They're camps for Hispanic illegal immigrants. Trump wants them to be abused so that other people will be too scared to enter America.

And they are being charged, though not always with a formal criminal charge (though often they actually are charged) with migrating without authorization and given a hearing.

They aren't being charged and don't get a trial or any of the associated legal protections.

They are not be held on basis of belong to a certain ethnic group, but because they immigrated without authorization. Most are held a fairly short time.

How many white people do you think get stopped on the streets by ICE and ordered to prove their citizenship?

The get a hearing. Oh and they am leave anytime the wish if the want to return to their home countries too BTW.

Yeah, you can just walk out of a "detention facility" and be free to go.

Yes we could and should definitely improve the process. Make visa overstays a crime as well, so we can charge them formally with a crime too. Fine with me.

People are being tortured and killed and you want to change policies and start throwing the victims of that abuse in prisons. You don't seem to have any interest in bringing the perpetrators to justice.

See there is no point in continuing when you just repost the same blatant lie over and over.
As I have shown some detention facilities have a population that is mostly non Hispanic!

Also Russians are white. And illegal immigrants from Russia have been detained.

So stop lying to promote your cause.
Nah, but we both know you would never do that.

And yes you can leave, if you volunteer to be returned to your home country.

And if you want them to get official criminal charges and a full trial instead of a Immigration hearing, I was simply pointing out that can be arranged.
And that would not necessarily result in them going to jail, usually they are deported in lieu of jail anyways regardless of if they are charged with a crime or not.

And I have stated I am for investigation and holding the employees in these facilities accountable if they broke the law.

[Nova Cyberia]

They're camps for Hispanic illegal immigrants. Trump wants them to be abused so that other people will be too scared to enter America.


They aren't being charged and don't get a trial or any of the associated legal protections.


How many white people do you think get stopped on the streets by ICE and ordered to prove their citizenship?


Yeah, you can just walk out of a "detention facility" and be free to go.


People are being tortured and killed and you want to change policies and start throwing the victims of that abuse in prisons. You don't seem to have any interest in bringing the perpetrators to justice.

See there is no point in continuing when you just repost the same blatant lie over and over.
As I have shown some detention facilities have a population that is mostly non Hispanic!

Also Russians are white. And illegal immigrants from Russia have been detained.

So stop lying to promote your cause.
Nah, but we both know you would never do that.

And yes you can leave, if you volunteer to be returned to your home country.

And if you want them to get official criminal charges and a full trial instead of a Immigration hearing, I was simply pointing out that can be arranged.
And that would not necessarily result in them going to jail, usually they are deported in lieu of jail anyways regardless of if they are charged with a crime or not.

And I have stated I am for investigation and holding the employees in these facilities accountable if they broke the law.

He doesn't really care if people are being abused or not. He just wants an excuse to abolish ICE. That's all this is really about.

[Ifreann]

They're camps for Hispanic illegal immigrants. Trump wants them to be abused so that other people will be too scared to enter America.


They aren't being charged and don't get a trial or any of the associated legal protections.


How many white people do you think get stopped on the streets by ICE and ordered to prove their citizenship?


Yeah, you can just walk out of a "detention facility" and be free to go.


People are being tortured and killed and you want to change policies and start throwing the victims of that abuse in prisons. You don't seem to have any interest in bringing the perpetrators to justice.

See there is no point in continuing when you just repost the same blatant lie over and over.
As I have shown some detention facilities have a population that is mostly non Hispanic!

What you're failing to understand here is that other people being detained doesn't change the purpose of these camps.

Also Russians are white. And illegal immigrants from Russia have been detained.

I'm sure they have, Russian sounds pretty distinct from English. I asked how many white people you think get stopped in the streets and told to show their papers. Personally I'd bet it's Hispanic looking people who get that treatment most of the time.

So stop lying to promote your cause.
Nah, but we both know you would never do that.

But I'm not lying. I'm saying things you don't like.

And yes you can leave, if you volunteer to be returned to your home country.

Free flight anywhere on Earth, courtesy of Uncle Sam. But only if they believe that you live there. And only if you'd actually be safe going back there.

And if you want them to get official criminal charges and a full trial instead of a Immigration hearing, I was simply pointing out that can be arranged.
And that would not necessarily result in them going to jail, usually they are deported in lieu of jail anyways regardless of if they are charged with a crime or not.

I want people at these hearings to have a lawyer there advocating for them.

And I have stated I am for investigation and holding the employees in these facilities accountable if they broke the law.

Which is to say, those responsible for the legal, government-endorsed torture will get to carry on. The organisation responsible will get to carry on, less a few scapegoats.

---

He doesn't really care if people are being abused or not. He just wants an excuse to abolish ICE. That's all this is really about.

Sorry, who are you?

[Nova Cyberia]

See there is no point in continuing when you just repost the same blatant lie over and over.
As I have shown some detention facilities have a population that is mostly non Hispanic!

What you're failing to understand here is that other people being detained doesn't change the purpose of these camps.

Also Russians are white. And illegal immigrants from Russia have been detained.

I'm sure they have, Russian sounds pretty distinct from English. I asked how many white people you think get stopped in the streets and told to show their papers? Personally I'd bet it's Hispanic looking people who get that treatment most of the time.

So stop lying to promote your cause.
Nah, but we both know you would never do that.

But I'm not lying. I'm saying things you don't like.

And yes you can leave, if you volunteer to be returned to your home country.

Free flight anywhere on Earth, courtesy of Uncle Sam. But only if they believe that you live there. And only if you'd actually be safe going back there.

And if you want them to get official criminal charges and a full trial instead of a Immigration hearing, I was simply pointing out that can be arranged.
And that would not necessarily result in them going to jail, usually they are deported in lieu of jail anyways regardless of if they are charged with a crime or not.

I want people at these hearings to have a lawyer there advocating for them.

And I have stated I am for investigation and holding the employees in these facilities accountable if they broke the law.

Which is to say, those responsible for the legal, government-endorsed torture will get to carry on. The organisation responsible will get to carry on, less a few scapegoats.

---

He doesn't really care if people are being abused or not. He just wants an excuse to abolish ICE. That's all this is really about.

Sorry, who are you?

Tacitus Kilgore.

Who are you?

[Ifreann]

What you're failing to understand here is that other people being detained doesn't change the purpose of these camps.


I'm sure they have, Russian sounds pretty distinct from English. I asked how many white people you think get stopped in the streets and told to show their papers? Personally I'd bet it's Hispanic looking people who get that treatment most of the time.


But I'm not lying. I'm saying things you don't like.


Free flight anywhere on Earth, courtesy of Uncle Sam. But only if they believe that you live there. And only if you'd actually be safe going back there.


I want people at these hearings to have a lawyer there advocating for them.


Which is to say, those responsible for the legal, government-endorsed torture will get to carry on. The organisation responsible will get to carry on, less a few scapegoats.

---

Sorry, who are you?

Tacitus Kilgore.

Who are you?

You're the one acting like you know my motivations. Surely you already know me. But I don't know you, so I suspect you're just talking shit.

[Nova Cyberia]

Tacitus Kilgore.

Who are you?

You're the one acting like you know my motivations. Surely you already know me. But I don't know you, so I suspect you're just talking shit.

Talking shit? Not in the least. I'm making a general observation. You want to abolish ICE. This just simply provides you with a convenient excuse.

Also, there's the little fact that even though you don't have any proof you're still totally sure that Hispanics get stopped by ICE more than anyone else.

Making allegations of racism without evidence? Yep, you don't actually give a shit if abuse is happening or not. You just wanna abolish ICE.

[Novus America]

See there is no point in continuing when you just repost the same blatant lie over and over.
As I have shown some detention facilities have a population that is mostly non Hispanic!

What you're failing to understand here is that other people being detained doesn't change the purpose of these camps.

Also Russians are white. And illegal immigrants from Russia have been detained.

I'm sure they have, Russian sounds pretty distinct from English. I asked how many white people you think get stopped in the streets and told to show their papers. Personally I'd bet it's Hispanic looking people who get that treatment most of the time.

So stop lying to promote your cause.
Nah, but we both know you would never do that.

But I'm not lying. I'm saying things you don't like.

And yes you can leave, if you volunteer to be returned to your home country.

Free flight anywhere on Earth, courtesy of Uncle Sam. But only if they believe that you live there. And only if you'd actually be safe going back there.

And if you want them to get official criminal charges and a full trial instead of a Immigration hearing, I was simply pointing out that can be arranged.
And that would not necessarily result in them going to jail, usually they are deported in lieu of jail anyways regardless of if they are charged with a crime or not.

I want people at these hearings to have a lawyer there advocating for them.

And I have stated I am for investigation and holding the employees in these facilities accountable if they broke the law.

Which is to say, those responsible for the legal, government-endorsed torture will get to carry on. The organisation responsible will get to carry on, less a few scapegoats.

---

He doesn't really care if people are being abused or not. He just wants an excuse to abolish ICE. That's all this is really about.

Sorry, who are you?

So you have no evidence whatsoever for your claims that detention is somehow for Hispanics when they are clearly for unauthorized immigrants, of different ethnic origins.
Great. Par for your course though.

[Ifreann]

You're the one acting like you know my motivations. Surely you already know me. But I don't know you, so I suspect you're just talking shit.

Talking shit? Not in the least. I'm making a general observation. You want to abolish ICE. This just simply provides you with a convenient excuse.

And since you don't know me, how can you say that I don't want to abolish ICE because of things like this?

That's right, you can't. You're just talking shit.

Also, there's the little fact that even though you don't have any proof you're still totally sure that Hispanics get stopped by ICE more than anyone else.

I'm not totally sure, but I rather suspect that to be the case. Do you really think otherwise?

Making allegations of racism without evidence? Yep, you don't actually give a shit if abuse is happening or not. You just wanna abolish ICE.

Your attempts at mind-reading are underwhelming, to say the least.

[Nova Cyberia]

Talking shit? Not in the least. I'm making a general observation. You want to abolish ICE. This just simply provides you with a convenient excuse.

And since you don't know me, how can you say that I don't want to abolish ICE because of things like this?

That's right, you can't. You're just talking shit.

Because of your post on page 1 of this very thread.

But if America abolishes ICE, who will torture vulnerable people?

You made it clear where you're coming from from the very beginning.

You don't care about the people ICE abuses. You just want an excuse to abolish it.

Also, there's the little fact that even though you don't have any proof you're still totally sure that Hispanics get stopped by ICE more than anyone else.

I'm not totally sure, but I rather suspect that to be the case. Do you really think otherwise?

"I'm not totally sure."

Ah, the backpedal. One of the first signs of someone being dishonest.

Making allegations of racism without evidence? Yep, you don't actually give a shit if abuse is happening or not. You just wanna abolish ICE.

Your attempts at mind-reading are underwhelming, to say the least.

Is this what passes for snark these days? Yeesh.