Homeless shelters in US may soon be able to deny transgender

[Ostroeuropa]

I reject sexism, discrimination, and segregation being the answer. It just doesn't make any sense to see person A to be afraid for something person Z did to you, even if they share some immutable characteristics. This is not reasonable if the immutable character is that person A and Z are both men, or if the immutable characteristic is that they're both black.

The reason we have women's only shelters isn't that victims of domestic violent fear men(though it is true that many might) but that it's not possible to allow men in and also ensure that we're only allowing the non-abusive ones.

We wouldn't do whites only support systems for victims of black crime, and the current status quo is unacceptable for the same reason

You're right, we wouldn't. But we would totally create black shelters. Those are a real thing.

You also can't prevent the abusive women from entering the shelter either, so I fail to see why that's relevant. I guess nobody can enter the shelter and that way we'll be sure nobody who enters is abusive.

[Wallenburg]

Trump and his cronies are misanthropic bigots, news at 11.

[Wallenburg]

Sorry, fake tits and some makeup dont make you a woman! Nor does pumping your body full of unnatural levels of hormones! Better luck next time

You are absolutely right, fake tits and makeup don't make you a woman. Identifying as a woman makes you a woman.

[Necroghastia]

So putting the man on the bottom in a women-only shelter and the woman on the top in a men-only shelter is going to cause less disruption and confusion?

Also, y'know, it's funny, I could've sworn that every credible mental health professional agrees that trans people are the gender they identify as... mind posting your credentials? Since you're so sure about what goes on in mental hospitals and all.

"an individual’s sex for the purposes of determining accommodation within such shelters and for purposes of determining sex for admission to any facility or portion thereof." Doesn't mean biological sex. They'll probably go by what you present as, since they know what the abusers present as.

I was responding to the person who was making a big stink about bio. sex, though.

>alt-right meme
>clearly anti-bathroom bill image
????????????

Thats an alt right meme right out of a facebook echo chamber.

She wouldn't be forced to use the mens, he wouldn't obliged to use the womans.

Odd. I've only ever seen it shared in pro-trans circles. I think the first time I ever saw that pic was in NSG's trans thread, actually.

[Aclion]

You also can't prevent the abusive women from entering the shelter either, so I fail to see why that's relevant. I guess nobody can enter the shelter and that way we'll be sure nobody who enters is abusive.

It's relevant because the people at women shelters are fleeing form abusive men.

I was responding to the person who was making a big stink about bio. sex, though.

Why? That's not what the policy being discussed does.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Thats an alt right meme right out of a facebook echo chamber.

She wouldn't be forced to use the mens, he wouldn't obliged to use the womans.

Odd. I've only ever seen it shared in pro-trans circles. I think the first time I ever saw that pic was in NSG's trans thread, actually.

Wait shit I made a mistake.

I misread who was born what gender.

I misread the meme, sorry.

[Ostroeuropa]

You also can't prevent the abusive women from entering the shelter either, so I fail to see why that's relevant. I guess nobody can enter the shelter and that way we'll be sure nobody who enters is abusive.

It's relevant because the people at women shelters are fleeing form abusive men.

I was responding to the person who was making a big stink about bio. sex, though.

Why? That's not what the policy being discussed does.

Not all of them. There's a higher rate of abuse in lesbian couples than heterosexual ones, and those lesbian couples are more likely to face socioeconomic and societal issues that make them need the shelters. Moreover, the segregation policy means a lack of resources for men attempting to flee relationships. It's a matter of numbers. You can subject 50% of the abused population to no escape options in order to protect 45% from a hypothetical situation (With 5% of them being non-protected due to being lesbians), or take another approach.

If we assume one in ten abusers will exploit the situation, then we get the following;
90% of the population now has protection and the means to avoid their abuser. An increase of 45%.

If we assume one in five, you get 80% for an increase of 35%.

One in three, and you get 66%, still a 20% increase in number of abuse victims protected.

A full fifty percent of abusers exploiting the situation?

Still means you protect 5% of the population more than you do currently.

The situation is unjustifiable unless you prioritize womens wellbeing over mens.

Are you seriously suggesting more than 50% of all abusers would follow their victim to the shelter, sign up for shelter, and continue to abuse them?

If not, then the segregation has no possible defense except by erasing male victimhood and female perpetration. Precisely what they did in order to justify it. Segregated shelters are a legacy of misandry and statistical manipulation by the feminist movement, and the "Well what if male abusers turn up?" is the same. It makes no sense when you think about the actual figures, and only makes sense if you roll with their manipulated statistics that ignore female perpetration.

The reason those figures are so lopsided is the lack of male shelters. In effect, the segregation policy means that men are mandatorially placed in the situation you apparently are keen to avoid. By default, their abuser is kept in their lives and place of sleep and so on. That's half of all victims.

Given the lack of actual incidents over lesbian abusers turning up to batter their ex-partners, I think we can assume this is basically the same paranoia about men turning up to rape women in bathrooms if you desegregate them, and abusers will not as a norm turn up to the shelter their victim has gone to. It's a fantasy, a paranoid fantasy based in feminist hatred of men that subjects those men to the exact situation the feminists supposedly find so dangerous in the first place, but who cares about the men, right? So long as we protect women from their paranoid fears, that's more important than protecting men from actual danger.

[Necroghastia]

You also can't prevent the abusive women from entering the shelter either, so I fail to see why that's relevant. I guess nobody can enter the shelter and that way we'll be sure nobody who enters is abusive.

It's relevant because the people at women shelters are fleeing form abusive men.

I was responding to the person who was making a big stink about bio. sex, though.

Why? That's not what the policy being discussed does.

The factors that shelter operators can consider to determine someone's sex include "privacy, safety, practical concerns, religious beliefs," the proposed rule says, and "the individual’s sex as reflected in official government documents."

[Galloism]

It's relevant because the people at women shelters are fleeing form abusive men.

Given the lack of actual incidents over lesbian abusers turning up to batter their ex-partners,

This is actually a really good callout. Given lesbian relationships are the most likely to be violent, do we have any documented evidence of a lesbian partner or spouse turning up to further abuse the abuse victim AT a shelter?

[Ostroeuropa]

Given the lack of actual incidents over lesbian abusers turning up to batter their ex-partners,

This is actually a really good callout. Given lesbian relationships are the most likely to be violent, do we have any documented evidence of a lesbian partner or spouse turning up to further abuse the abuse victim AT a shelter?

None so far as i'm aware. So it seems to me to be a fantasy that this would occur, much like "If we let trans folk in the bathrooms, there will be rapes", despite no recorded instances of that happening. My bet would be that they don't want to disrupt their psychological abuse attempts, as turning up to the shelter too is difficult to explain away and blame on their victim, and occurs in the presence of witnesses. That disrupts the typical pattern abusers take.

The environment is one where their abuse cannot be projected back onto their victim for "doing something wrong", and the witnesses are the sort to immediately call out what is happening. The abuser is more likely imo to straight up deny any abuse has occurred and wait for the victim to come home, rather than play into this situation. Alternatively, they will pretend their victim is the abuser and say they don't want them to come home at all.

[Galloism]

This is actually a really good callout. Given lesbian relationships are the most likely to be violent, do we have any documented evidence of a lesbian partner or spouse turning up to further abuse the abuse victim AT a shelter?

None so far as i'm aware. So it seems to me to be a fantasy that this would occur, much like "If we let trans folk in the bathrooms, there will be rapes", despite no recorded instances of that happening. My bet would be that they don't want to disrupt their psychological abuse attempts, as turning up to the shelter too is difficult to explain away and blame on their victim, and occurs in the presence of witnesses. That disrupts the typical pattern abusers take.

The environment is one where their abuse cannot be projected back onto their victim for "doing something wrong", and the witnesses are the sort to immediately call out what is happening. The abuser is more likely imo to straight up deny any abuse has occurred and wait for the victim to come home, rather than play into this situation. Alternatively, they will pretend their victim is the abuser and say they don't want them to come home at all.

I'd say the notion that an abuser might show up at a shelter to trail the abused is not necessarily a crazy notion, but in this case, I'm sure these shelters already have relevant procedures - after all, they somehow have magically handled this for lesbian couples for the last few decades without even a single documented incident (so far as we can see).

And if the abuser shows up pretending to be the abused to try and document some DARVO, the abused person certainly isn't going to follow them there. They'll go home. The abuser's gone, so home's a good place.

[Pope Joan]

How would they determine if someone is transgender?

Besides its a shitty and dubious move.

It would be easier to be fair if only there were some objective standards upon which to base such a determination

[Sapientia Et Bellum]

Sorry, fake tits and some makeup dont make you a woman! Nor does pumping your body full of unnatural levels of hormones! Better luck next time

So putting the man on the bottom in a women-only shelter and the woman on the top in a men-only shelter is going to cause less disruption and confusion?

Also, y'know, it's funny, I could've sworn that every credible mental health professional agrees that trans people are the gender they identify as... mind posting your credentials? Since you're so sure about what goes on in mental hospitals and all.

I honestly couldnt give a rats ass about what politicized professionals think... Its been proven countless times that transitioning is not at all an effective treatment for gender dysphoria and frankly it never will be... I'm all for exploring alternative care that allows the individual to live healthy and happy without butchering themselves because they reject reality... We dont tell your crazy uncle the voices are real nor should we tell these people that they are actually the sex/gender that they are not....

[Necroghastia]

So putting the man on the bottom in a women-only shelter and the woman on the top in a men-only shelter is going to cause less disruption and confusion?

Also, y'know, it's funny, I could've sworn that every credible mental health professional agrees that trans people are the gender they identify as... mind posting your credentials? Since you're so sure about what goes on in mental hospitals and all.

I honestly couldnt give a rats ass about what politicized professionals think... Its been proven countless times that transitioning is not at all an effective treatment for gender dysphoria and frankly it never will be... I'm all for exploring alternative care that allows the individual to live healthy and happy without butchering themselves because they reject reality... We dont tell your crazy uncle the voices are real nor should we tell these people that they are actually the sex/gender that they are not....

Again, I ask that you post your credentials and relevant studies, since you know so much better. I'd also like you to prove that said "politicized professionals" are, in fact, politicized and not actually stating the truth.

[Wallenburg]

So putting the man on the bottom in a women-only shelter and the woman on the top in a men-only shelter is going to cause less disruption and confusion?

Also, y'know, it's funny, I could've sworn that every credible mental health professional agrees that trans people are the gender they identify as... mind posting your credentials? Since you're so sure about what goes on in mental hospitals and all.

I honestly couldnt give a rats ass about what politicized professionals think... Its been proven countless times that transitioning is not at all an effective treatment for gender dysphoria and frankly it never will be... I'm all for exploring alternative care that allows the individual to live healthy and happy without butchering themselves because they reject reality... We dont tell your crazy uncle the voices are real nor should we tell these people that they are actually the sex/gender that they are not....

Literally everything you just said contradicts scientific facts and the academic consensus with regard to medicine, sex, and gender.

[Sapientia Et Bellum]

I honestly couldnt give a rats ass about what politicized professionals think... Its been proven countless times that transitioning is not at all an effective treatment for gender dysphoria and frankly it never will be... I'm all for exploring alternative care that allows the individual to live healthy and happy without butchering themselves because they reject reality... We dont tell your crazy uncle the voices are real nor should we tell these people that they are actually the sex/gender that they are not....

Again, I ask that you post your credentials and relevant studies, since you know so much better. I'd also like you to prove that said "politicized professionals" are, in fact, politicized and not actually stating the truth.

Collection of various research on the topic concerning the lack of success when its comes to using transition as a cure for dysphoria...

https://www.heritage.org/gender/comment ... e-evidence

[Wallenburg]

Again, I ask that you post your credentials and relevant studies, since you know so much better. I'd also like you to prove that said "politicized professionals" are, in fact, politicized and not actually stating the truth.

Collection of various research on the topic concerning the lack of success when its comes to using transition as a cure for dysphoria...

https://www.heritage.org/gender/comment ... e-evidence

The Heritage Foundation...don't make me laugh.

[Necroghastia]

Collection of various research on the topic concerning the lack of success when its comes to using transition as a cure for dysphoria...

https://www.heritage.org/gender/comment ... e-evidence

The Heritage Foundation...don't make me laugh.

^

[The Blaatschapen]

I'll go out on a limb and say yes to this.

If segregation is the answer, you're probably answering the wrong question.

In choosing to answer this question, I asked myself the following:



And that's the answer I landed on.

I suppose you didn't see Arch's post advising Aclion not to do the "Future Somebody" prediction thing because, well ...

I would advise you against using this type of argument where your counter-argument is based on what you predict someone else is going to say, in particular putting it in quote boxes assigned to that person's hypothetical future self.

Even if Mystic Warriors does end up making the arguments outlined above, this can be misconstrued.

As a one-time thing, it's not actionable, but if it becomes a trend we'll have to discuss that in the Mod Lair.

Thanks.

So future mods might have to decide on it?

[Mettaton-EX]

Collection of various research on the topic concerning the lack of success when its comes to using transition as a cure for dysphoria...

https://www.heritage.org/gender/comment ... e-evidence

The Heritage Foundation...don't make me laugh.

the actual research, of course, tells rather a different story

[Wallenburg]

The Heritage Foundation...don't make me laugh.

the actual research, of course, tells rather a different story

Well that's how think tanks like Heritage work. They cherry pick a couple studies that stick out from the greater consensus, misinterpret their findings, and push a political agenda simply not rooted in reality.

[Odinburgh]

Very stupid . Then again this is Trump that has no respect for anyone but cater to bigots.

[UIJ]

Why not just have transgender shelters?

I'm sure transgender person would rather be with people who care and understand them then getting possibly discriminated against in a male or female one. Just because a trans can get in a single sex shelter doesn't mean jack shit if they're hated and/or abused in that shelter. Having trans shelters would probably be a better move, tbh.

[Country of CityTowne]

The reason we have women's only shelters isn't that victims of domestic violent fear men(though it is true that many might) but that it's not possible to allow men in and also ensure that we're only allowing the non-abusive ones.

Ah geez because ONLY women are victims of domestic abuse from the opposite sex and all that bullshit. If the genders were reversed all the feministsfemale supremacists'd be triggered as all hell.

Homeless shelters're for everybody. I understand the need for homeless shelters for specific demographics for people but if you want one you've to do all of them.

And back to the regularly scheduled CCTCorp brand Political Views(TM).

Transgender--and all-- people should be allowed in a shelter if they need it. Gender, sex, sexual orientation, race, national origin or any of that stuff doesn't matter. If someone needs help, it shouldn't be up to the GOP to decide whether or not they get it.

[Mettaton-EX]

Why not just have transgender shelters?

I'm sure transgender person would rather be with people who care and understand them then getting possibly discriminated against in a male or female one. Just because a trans can get in a single sex shelter doesn't mean jack shit if they're hated and/or abused in that shelter. Having trans shelters would probably be a better move, tbh.

population density