Homeless shelters in US may soon be able to deny transgender

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Damn. And here I thought America was shit enough as is. As a place founded on civil rights, I'm surprised it's gotten this way already.

Which narrative are you reading from? Maybe if you mean civil rights for christian, straight, white males, preferably wealthy, then yeah.

I dunno dudes. Why should they even care for gender? It's a homeless shelter, not non-transgender exclusive club or something, so... this is just plain illogical.

It's logical to prevent rape. You do not put men of unknown background alone with women who might be there because of abuse. The whole transgender issue is: what's to stop a man from claiming he is a woman for nefarious reasons?

I'm sorry but there's got to be a better way at preventing rape then letting some poor transgender woman sleep in the cold.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Which narrative are you reading from? Maybe if you mean civil rights for christian, straight, white males, preferably wealthy, then yeah.



It's logical to prevent rape. You do not put men of unknown background alone with women who might be there because of abuse. The whole transgender issue is: what's to stop a man from claiming he is a woman for nefarious reasons?

I'm sorry but there's got to be a better way at preventing rape then letting some poor transgender woman sleep in the cold.

I’d like to point out that the first thing that needs to happen is not to assume that transgender people are rapists. If a trans woman is at a shelter, you should bet that it’s because she needs sheltering.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Presumably homeless shelters are open plan purely to make them cheaper?

[Aclion]

Aclion, I would advise you against using this type of argument where your counter-argument is based on what you predict someone else is going to say, in particular putting it in quote boxes assigned to that person's hypothetical future self.

Even if Mystic Warriors does end up making the arguments outlined above, this can be misconstrued.

It can't reasonably be misconstrued. But as has been demonstrated it can be misrepresented.

Should white shelters be required to allow black people in?

And that's the answer I landed on.

Do white people need separate shelters to be safe from abusers the way women do with men(and vice versa but good luck setting one of those up)? Because outside of some Birth of a Nation knock off I don't see that as a relevant issue.

It's logical to prevent rape. You do not put men of unknown background alone with women who might be there because of abuse. The whole transgender issue is: what's to stop a man from claiming he is a woman for nefarious reasons?

Like male-female rape is the only bad and criminal thing that can happen when people of unknown background are bunched together. There are other crimes, and they are handled somehow. So... this segregation does very little. Let's get rid of it and that's all.

No, those other crimes aren't handled, that's why for a lot of people it's preferable to sleep in the street then in a shelter. The ideal solution would be to stop standing in the way of more housing so that fewer people will be homeless, but that's not going to happen because "solutions" to homelessness are a much better scource of graft then solutions to homelessness.

Presumably homeless shelters are open plan purely to make them cheaper?

and to stop them being used as drug dens, brothels ect.

I’d like to point out that the first thing that needs to happen is not to assume that transgender people are rapists. If a trans woman is at a shelter, you should bet that it’s because she needs sheltering.

The issue is that depressingly abusive relationships are really common. Much more then trans people. So it's more reasonable to assume that a person seeking entry to a shelter is an abuser then it is to assume they are transgender.

[Galloism]

I'll go out on a limb and say yes to this.

If segregation is the answer, you're probably answering the wrong question.

In choosing to answer this question, I asked myself the following:



And that's the answer I landed on.

I suppose you didn't see Arch's post advising Aclion not to do the "Future Somebody" prediction thing because, well ...

I would advise you against using this type of argument where your counter-argument is based on what you predict someone else is going to say, in particular putting it in quote boxes assigned to that person's hypothetical future self.

Even if Mystic Warriors does end up making the arguments outlined above, this can be misconstrued.

As a one-time thing, it's not actionable, but if it becomes a trend we'll have to discuss that in the Mod Lair.

Thanks.

This is clearly not me predicting what someone else is going to say, unlike what Arch was talking about. This is a rhetorical device I use on myself to test myself and make sure I'm being nonsexist in a world that's filled with sexism and teaches us sexist things that we accept as "normal".

By juxtapositioning sex and race we can see that segregation for what it really is, which is why is a frequent self-test on my part. Despite my best efforts, sometimes I slip, and running a separate mental test replacing "women" with "white people" and "men" with "black people" gets me, and others, to consider it more carefully.

What I did has nothing to do with what Arch was talking about.

[Galloism]

Do white people need separate shelters to be safe from abusers the way women do with men(and vice versa but good luck setting one of those up)? Because outside of some Birth of a Nation knock off I don't see that as a relevant issue.

Men are not universal abusers just like black people are not universal abusers. The actions of a particular man should not impugn all men who need help, just the actions of a particular black person should not impugn all black people who need help.

[Aclion]

Do white people need separate shelters to be safe from abusers the way women do with men(and vice versa but good luck setting one of those up)? Because outside of some Birth of a Nation knock off I don't see that as a relevant issue.

Men are not universal abusers just like black people are not universal abusers. The actions of a particular man should not impugn all men who need help, just the actions of a particular black person should not impugn all black people who need help.

This counterargument would work a lot better if I hadn't already acknowledged that women abuse men as well.

[Galloism]

Men are not universal abusers just like black people are not universal abusers. The actions of a particular man should not impugn all men who need help, just the actions of a particular black person should not impugn all black people who need help.

This counterargument would work a lot better if I hadn't already acknowledged that women abuse men as well.

I'm not saying you didn't - but the simple fact is men who are abused are routinely turned away on the basis of their sex, having done nothing wrong, and only seeking help.

Separate but equal facilities are inherently unequal.

EDIT: and to keep this on topic, transwomen are so discriminated against the same way, because they are viewed as men.

[Aclion]

This counterargument would work a lot better if I hadn't already acknowledged that women abuse men as well.

I'm not saying you didn't - but the simple fact is men who are abused are routinely turned away on the basis of their sex, having done nothing wrong, and only seeking help.

Separate but equal facilities are inherently unequal.

EDIT: and to keep this on topic, transwomen are so discriminated against the same way, because they are viewed as men.

Not comparable. Battered men aren't just being turned away from womens shelters on the basis of their sex. They're also being denied the resources to establish men's shelters.

And men are discriminated against when they're told they can't work at shelters for battered women. There's really not much we can do about that. It's what we in the GA call a "compelling practical purpose". We offer shelters that aren't restricted by gender and sex specific shelters to protect people who are being targeted by an abuser of the opposite sex. It isn't practical to offer tran people this service just as it isn't practical to offer it to people who's abusers are the same sex. So the >1% of people who are trans will need to settle for the general shelter, along with the 49% of the population which is male and also doesn't have access to the facilities Trans people are demanding.

[Galloism]

I'm not saying you didn't - but the simple fact is men who are abused are routinely turned away on the basis of their sex, having done nothing wrong, and only seeking help.

Separate but equal facilities are inherently unequal.

EDIT: and to keep this on topic, transwomen are so discriminated against the same way, because they are viewed as men.

Not comparable. Battered men aren't just being turned away from womens shelters on the basis of their sex. They're also being denied the resources to establish men's shelters.

Yes, this does bear a remarkable similarity to the circumstances leading up to Brown v. Board of Education, except even more disparate.

And men are discriminated against when they're told they can't work at shelters for battered women.

Yes, this should be considered illegal employment discrimination under The Civil Rights Act.

There's really not much we can do about that. It's what we in the GA call a "compelling practical purpose".

Or we could not discriminate on the basis of sex? It can totally work.

We offer shelters that aren't restricted by gender and sex specific shelters to protect people who are being targeted by an abuser of the opposite sex. It isn't practical to offer tran people this service just as it isn't practical to offer it to people who's abusers are the same sex. So the >1% of people who are trans will need to settle for the general shelter, along with the 49% of the population which is male and also doesn't have access to the facilities Trans people are demanding.

Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine if you will you see a society that looks like this:

50% of jobs are open to men only. They specifically exclude women by virtue of being women. Because, in the wake of the mass hysteria, men are afraid of women as a group knowing that they can be ruined by women just based on sex. This is a real fear, by the way. Working men fear being abused by women and are afraid to even interact with them.
50% of jobs are open to men, women, and trans persons.

Is this a problem? They do have access to the other facilities.

I say it's a problem.

[Aclion]

I say it's a problem.

Yes it's a problem. It's also a problem that people are homeless, and that people need to flee abuse. If you came to talk policy related to homeless shelters for abuse victims expecting to come out will all the problems gone then I'm afraid you are simply not being realistic.

The solution to your scenario is not to force these men to work with women, but to eliminate the institutions that allow women to ruin the lives of innocent male coworkers.

What's the equivalent in the scenario we're dealing with here? How can we ensure everyone has access to safe shelters?

[Galloism]

I say it's a problem.

Yes it's a problem. It's also a problem that people are homeless, and that people need to flee abuse. If you came to talk policy related to homeless shelters for abuse victims expecting to come out will all the problems gone then I'm afraid you are simply not being realistic.

I reject sexism, discrimination, and segregation being the answer. It just doesn't make any sense to see person A to be afraid for something person Z did to you, even if they share some immutable characteristics. This is not reasonable if the immutable character is that person A and Z are both men, or if the immutable characteristic is that they're both black.

We wouldn't do whites only support systems for victims of black crime, and the current status quo is unacceptable for the same reason.

And for the record, white people do, statistically, fear black people in general and black men in particular, based on the color of their skin. That doesn't mean we should adopt racist solutions to accommodate their prejudices.

[Aclion]

I reject sexism, discrimination, and segregation being the answer. It just doesn't make any sense to see person A to be afraid for something person Z did to you, even if they share some immutable characteristics. This is not reasonable if the immutable character is that person A and Z are both men, or if the immutable characteristic is that they're both black.

The reason we have women's only shelters isn't that victims of domestic violent fear men(though it is true that many might) but that it's not possible to allow men in and also ensure that we're only allowing the non-abusive ones.

We wouldn't do whites only support systems for victims of black crime, and the current status quo is unacceptable for the same reason

You're right, we wouldn't. But we would totally create black shelters. Those are a real thing.

[Galloism]

We wouldn't do whites only support systems for victims of black crime, and the current status quo is unacceptable for the same reason

You're right, we wouldn't. But we would totally create black shelters. Those are a real thing.

I think I'd need to see some sauce on this.

[Sapientia Et Bellum]

I mean, biological males should be kept with biological males and biological females should be kept with biological females... Pretty cut and dry, doesnt matter if you feel like the other gender or not

Seems like a good proposal, good on The President

The best solution of course is to tranfer "trans" individuals to mental hospitals so they can get the help they actually need

[Aclion]

You're right, we wouldn't. But we would totally create black shelters. Those are a real thing.

I think I'd need to see some sauce on this.

They're called safe spaces.

[Necroghastia]

I mean, biological males should be kept with biological males and biological females should be kept with biological females... Pretty cut and dry, doesnt matter if you feel like the other gender or not

Seems like a good proposal, good on The President

The best solution of course is to tranfer "trans" individuals to mental hospitals so they can get the help they actually need

An old image, obviously, but unfortunately still relevant.

[Sapientia Et Bellum]

I mean, biological males should be kept with biological males and biological females should be kept with biological females... Pretty cut and dry, doesnt matter if you feel like the other gender or not

Seems like a good proposal, good on The President

The best solution of course is to tranfer "trans" individuals to mental hospitals so they can get the help they actually need

Sorry, fake tits and some makeup dont make you a woman! Nor does pumping your body full of unnatural levels of hormones! Better luck next time

[Galloism]

I think I'd need to see some sauce on this.

They're called safe spaces.

I'm looking at both resources and services - where's their shelter?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

I mean, biological males should be kept with biological males and biological females should be kept with biological females... Pretty cut and dry, doesnt matter if you feel like the other gender or not

Seems like a good proposal, good on The President

The best solution of course is to tranfer "trans" individuals to mental hospitals so they can get the help they actually need

An old image, obviously, but unfortunately still relevant.

Old artifacting alt right memes are not good arguments.

She wouldn't be obliged to use the mens restroom and vise versa.

[Necroghastia]

Sorry, fake tits and some makeup dont make you a woman! Nor does pumping your body full of unnatural levels of hormones! Better luck next time

So putting the man on the bottom in a women-only shelter and the woman on the top in a men-only shelter is going to cause less disruption and confusion?

Also, y'know, it's funny, I could've sworn that every credible mental health professional agrees that trans people are the gender they identify as... mind posting your credentials? Since you're so sure about what goes on in mental hospitals and all.

[Necroghastia]

An old image, obviously, but unfortunately still relevant.

Old artifacting alt right memes are not good arguments.

She wouldn't be obliged to use the mens restroom and vise versa.

>alt-right meme
>clearly anti-bathroom bill image
????????????

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Sorry, fake tits and some makeup dont make you a woman! Nor does pumping your body full of unnatural levels of hormones! Better luck next time

If they want to live there life as a woman, then they can.

Not the governments place to juge. If the government has no place in the bedroom it has no place in the bathroom.

[Aclion]

So putting the man on the bottom in a women-only shelter and the woman on the top in a men-only shelter is going to cause less disruption and confusion?

Also, y'know, it's funny, I could've sworn that every credible mental health professional agrees that trans people are the gender they identify as... mind posting your credentials? Since you're so sure about what goes on in mental hospitals and all.

"an individual’s sex for the purposes of determining accommodation within such shelters and for purposes of determining sex for admission to any facility or portion thereof." Doesn't mean biological sex. They'll probably go by what you present as, since they know what the abusers present as.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Old artifacting alt right memes are not good arguments.

She wouldn't be obliged to use the mens restroom and vise versa.

>alt-right meme
>clearly anti-bathroom bill image
????????????

Thats an alt right meme right out of a facebook echo chamber.

She wouldn't be forced to use the mens, he wouldn't obliged to use the womans.