Sweden considering banning Nordic runes to deter hate

[Nova Cyberia]

You can't claim self-defense when you're the one attacking them.

Who said anything about attacking them?

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

[Scomagia]

Who said anything about attacking them?

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

Setting the groundwork for it, anyway. That's the real point of it. Doxx them and then hope they get "dealt" with.

[Liriena]

Unlike those on the left most neo-Nazis don't try to hide who they are, idk what outing them again is supposed to do.

To get them fired and render them unemployable, homeless, hungry, destitute, and leave them to die in the gutter, of course.

Ideally, getting them fired while, in parallel, somebody far more patient and better prepared helps rehabilitate them. It's a good combo, I think: it undermines the movement's ability to organize in public due to public shame, it can potentially make the targets of neo-nazis safer (specially when a lot of neo-nazis happen to be work for institutions like the military or law enforcement), while also giving individual neo-nazis a way out and a chance to start over. A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.

[Ruskland-Preuben]

So you support violence and harassment against people who have differing opinions.

[beleaguered sigh]

They're fucking neo-nazis. We don't have "differing opinions". They want to kill people like me en masse and I want to live safely. If that means society coming together to violently confront them in self-defense, it sucks but it's gotta happen. As for "harassment", I do support publicly revealing the identities of neo-nazis to their families, employers, etc.

Just tell them that daddy Hitler wants them to reenact the Holocaust with them as the Jews. No more neo-nazi issues.

[Nova Cyberia]

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

Setting the groundwork for it, anyway. That's the real point of it. Doxx them and then hope they get "dealt" with.

The coward's way of dealing with a foe.

[Galloism]

Who said anything about attacking them?

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

I really struggle with the doxxing vs free speech vs free association paradox thing.

I mean, on the one hand, telling people who is an asshole is clearly speech. Them being an asshole is also speech. But telling people who the assholes are can lead to them being literally killed, which is a problem.

I mean, you think about the people who post the home addresses and schedules of abortion doctors. They clearly think the abortion doctors are killing people by the thousands. So they have at least as good an excuse as Liri does to want to try and tell everyone about the nazis. Yet, we look at this as beyond pale, because it can get them literally killed. Well, it can also get the neo nazis literally killed.

This is a super hard problem and one I'm not sure how to address.

[Liriena]

Who said anything about attacking them?

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

I don't think doxxing, in and of itself, counts as an attack. What would count as an attack, to me, would be people using the information they get from the doxxing to try to phyisically hurt the doxxed and/or their loved ones, or threaten to do so.

[Inkopolitia]

And? Does that change my point?

"Change" your point? No.
Does it reveal it to be a point built on shoddy information, laziness and gullibility? Yes.

It's still a part of Nordic history that is being erased.

No, it's not. It's a neo-nazi logo that's being banned. All actual Nordic runes will still be present in historical texts and historical artifacts and, I imagine, school textbooks.

By the way, the people behind the organization will just switch the symbol. Wait, we can also ban that one, and the next one they use, until we end up banning all of the runes?

Your slippery slope fallacy is duly noted.

"Let's ban it so now neo-pagans with no Nazi ideological leanings can't use it."

[Galloism]

To get them fired and render them unemployable, homeless, hungry, destitute, and leave them to die in the gutter, of course.

Ideally, getting them fired while, in parallel, somebody far more patient and better prepared helps rehabilitate them. It's a good combo, I think: it undermines the movement's ability to organize in public due to public shame, it can potentially make the targets of neo-nazis safer (specially when a lot of neo-nazis happen to be work for institutions like the military or law enforcement), while also giving individual neo-nazis a way out and a chance to start over. A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.

I'd like to introduce you to the concept of the internet, where nothing ever dies and everything is archived forever.

[Nova Cyberia]

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

I don't think doxxing, in and of itself, counts as an attack. What would count as an attack, to me, would be people using the information they get from the doxxing to try to phyisically hurt the doxxed and/or their loved ones, or threaten to do so.

Right, right. I get it. You're not attacking them. You're just putting the information out there knowing full well that they're going to be harassed, stalked and potentially assaulted. It's a bit like putting in a gun in the middle of a prison and then acting surprised when someone gets shot.

Like I said, the coward's way of dealing with a foe. Rather than dirtying your hands yourself you just opt to leave it to someone else.

[Uiiop]

"Change" your point? No.
Does it reveal it to be a point built on shoddy information, laziness and gullibility? Yes.


No, it's not. It's a neo-nazi logo that's being banned. All actual Nordic runes will still be present in historical texts and historical artifacts and, I imagine, school textbooks.


Your slippery slope fallacy is duly noted.

"Let's ban it so now neo-pagans with no Nazi ideological leanings can't use it."

Exaggerating your slope argument does not in fact validate it.
There's enough difference between those things that can will realize the logic for banning is dumb on one thing but not the other.

[Scomagia]

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

I don't think doxxing, in and of itself, counts as an attack. What would count as an attack, to me, would be people using the information they get from the doxxing to try to phyisically hurt the doxxed and/or their loved ones, or threaten to do so.

So you admit your stupid idea lays the foundation for vigilante violence. If you oppose said violence, you should oppose doxxing since it is not only a likely result, regardless of the doxxer's intention, it's also likely that the doxxer hopes for specifically that outcome.

[Liriena]

[beleaguered sigh]

They're fucking neo-nazis. We don't have "differing opinions". They want to kill people like me en masse and I want to live safely. If that means society coming together to violently confront them in self-defense, it sucks but it's gotta happen. As for "harassment", I do support publicly revealing the identities of neo-nazis to their families, employers, etc.

Do you support the same treatment for Marxists, Stalinists, Leninists, and Trotskyists? Those ideologies have repeatedly led to mass murder due to intrinsically hateful parts of their doctrine. Logically, traditional Communists must be violently opposed in "self defense", too.

This is like when you people try to "own" me by asking me if I'd be okay with left-wing politicians getting egged or heckled, and my answer is the same as then: yes, I'm okay with the tactic as a matter of principle and, therefor, my criticism would not be towards the tactic itself, but towards the painfully lazy and unoriginal motivation you've provided for it.

[Nakena]

If you're doxxing them then you're attacking them.

I don't think doxxing, in and of itself, counts as an attack. What would count as an attack, to me, would be people using the information they get from the doxxing to try to phyisically hurt the doxxed and/or their loved ones, or threaten to do so.

Thats a very slippery slope on some very thin ice, with the cracks already spreading across the shelf.

This is like when you people try to "own" me by asking me if I'd be okay with left-wing politicians getting egged or heckled, and my answer is the same as then: yes, I'm okay with the tactic as a matter of principle and, therefor, my criticism would not be towards the tactic itself, but towards the painfully lazy and unoriginal motivation you've provided for it.

*more cracks in the ice*

[Kowani]

Unlike those on the left most neo-Nazis don't try to hide who they are, idk what outing them again is supposed to do.

To get them fired and render them unemployable, homeless, hungry, destitute, and leave them to die in the gutter, of course.

Do Swedish welfare programs have ideological requirements? ‘Cause if so, that’s not gonna work.

[Galloism]

To get them fired and render them unemployable, homeless, hungry, destitute, and leave them to die in the gutter, of course.

Do Swedish welfare programs have ideological requirements? ‘Cause if so, that’s not gonna work.

I'm not super familiar with the Swedish welfare system, but if it's good enough to give you three hots and a cot for the rest of your days, and a reasonable clothing allowance, the neo nazis would probably be better off under Liri's plan. Instead of working most of the time and only being able to lobby and march on weekends, now they have free time to do it all week, paid for and supported by the government.

That's... better?

[Scomagia]

Do you support the same treatment for Marxists, Stalinists, Leninists, and Trotskyists? Those ideologies have repeatedly led to mass murder due to intrinsically hateful parts of their doctrine. Logically, traditional Communists must be violently opposed in "self defense", too.

This is like when you people try to "own" me by asking me if I'd be okay with left-wing politicians getting egged or heckled, and my answer is the same as then: yes, I'm okay with the tactic as a matter of principle and, therefor, my criticism would not be towards the tactic itself, but towards the painfully lazy and unoriginal motivation you've provided for it.

So both Communists and Neo-Nazis should be targets of violence because their ideologies offend you? Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

[Liriena]

Ideally, getting them fired while, in parallel, somebody far more patient and better prepared helps rehabilitate them. It's a good combo, I think: it undermines the movement's ability to organize in public due to public shame, it can potentially make the targets of neo-nazis safer (specially when a lot of neo-nazis happen to be work for institutions like the military or law enforcement), while also giving individual neo-nazis a way out and a chance to start over. A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.

I'd like to introduce you to the concept of the internet, where nothing ever dies and everything is archived forever.

Yes, this is mostly true. Except for the dozens of Youtube comments I made before Google took over... and also a lot of fan art and fanfiction I used to have bookmarked. That stuff is gone for good and I can't say I mourn it.

[Inkopolitia]

"Let's ban it so now neo-pagans with no Nazi ideological leanings can't use it."

Exaggerating your slope argument does not in fact validate it.
There's enough difference between those things that can will realize the logic for banning is dumb on one thing but not the other.

Regardless if this is a slippery slope argument for you, this rune is a part of Nordic history.

[Galloism]

I'd like to introduce you to the concept of the internet, where nothing ever dies and everything is archived forever.

Yes, this is mostly true. Except for the dozens of Youtube comments I made before Google took over... and also a lot of fan art and fanfiction I used to have bookmarked. That stuff is gone for good and I can't say I mourn it.

You could check the wayback machine. It's probably there.

[South Odreria]

This, fyi, is the problem with socialized medicine.

[Nova Cyberia]

Do Swedish welfare programs have ideological requirements? ‘Cause if so, that’s not gonna work.

I'm not super familiar with the Swedish welfare system, but if it's good enough to give you three hots and a cot for the rest of your days, and a reasonable clothing allowance, the neo nazis would probably be better off under Liri's plan. Instead of working most of the time and only being able to lobby and march on weekends, now they have free time to do it all week, paid for and supported by the government.

That's... better?

Nordic systems are weird.

Whenever I get some hope and think that there's justice in the world I always remember that Brevik is in some comfy Norwegian "cell" playing video games at taxpayer's expense.

[Liriena]

This is like when you people try to "own" me by asking me if I'd be okay with left-wing politicians getting egged or heckled, and my answer is the same as then: yes, I'm okay with the tactic as a matter of principle and, therefor, my criticism would not be towards the tactic itself, but towards the painfully lazy and unoriginal motivation you've provided for it.

So both Communists and Neo-Nazis should be targets of violence because their ideologies offend you? Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

Yes, you are misunderstanding me.

Yes, this is mostly true. Except for the dozens of Youtube comments I made before Google took over... and also a lot of fan art and fanfiction I used to have bookmarked. That stuff is gone for good and I can't say I mourn it.

You could check the wayback machine. It's probably there.

[extremely Mr Plinkett voice] No one's ever really gone.

[Uiiop]

Exaggerating your slope argument does not in fact validate it.
There's enough difference between those things that can will realize the logic for banning is dumb on one thing but not the other.

Regardless if this is a slippery slope argument for you, this rune is a part of Nordic history.

Which brings us to the fact it's not the rune itself being banned. Just another symbol that uses it.
I'd still disagree with that mind but different thing is different.

[Galloism]

This, fyi, is the problem with socialized medicine.

Socialized medicine leads to a ban in the usage of a particular nordic rune?