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The Iran War: Iraq II Electric Boogaloo?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do You Support A War In Iran?

Yes, we must eliminate the current government for one that is less dangerous.
14
9%
Yes, we must make sure Iran is not developing nuclear arms
5
3%
Yes, we must reinstall a secular and democratic government
18
11%
Yes, we must protect American Interests
5
3%
No, we don't need another Iraq
65
40%
No, it is not up to the US to determine who develops nuclear arms
14
9%
No, it is not our job to usurp stable governments
30
18%
No, war should never be an option for diplomacy
12
7%
 
Total votes : 163

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Spodehaven
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The Iran War: Iraq II Electric Boogaloo?

Postby Spodehaven » Mon May 20, 2019 9:17 am

It's no secret that the US is considering War with Iran. For many, this is rining the same bells of Iraq, with fear of both the waste of money and life leading into what will become an endless war. Others speculate an invasion of Iran could prove much harder than that of Iraq and many more US operatives may be killed[1]. On the opposing side, hawks argue that Iran is posturing against the US and its middle eastern allies and has continued work on nuclear weapons which supporters fear could end up in the arms of extremist groups. Independent panels have not supported such so far, but have conceded that in as little as one year Iran could produce a nuclear weapon[2].

I know my breakdown is fairly basic, but I'd like to hear NS's opinions on this whole debacle? Is this Iraq II or something different? Should we go to war or no?

In my opinion, the war should certainly be avoided at all costs. Consistently US meddling in the affairs of other nations has yet to result in many benefits worldwide. Iraq has been the biggest disaster of all, as it left a power vacuum that has supported the growth of ISIS and other extremist groups that are a threat to all nations today. Perhaps we will have learned from our mistakes, but that's being optimistic in my eyes. Even if we try to establish some form of Pro-US government in Iran, it probably will have to be a dictator to remain that way. I don't see the removal of a current, popular government for a US dictator as ethical at all.


[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 5d25c44e9c
[2] https://news.usni.org/2019/05/14/report ... ar-program
Last edited by Spodehaven on Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon May 20, 2019 9:35 am

Spodehaven wrote:It's no secret that the US is considering War with Iran. For many, this is rining the same bells of Iraq, with fear of both the waste of money and life leading into what will become an endless war. Others speculate an invasion of Iran could prove much harder than that of Iraq and many more US operatives may be killed[1]. On the opposing side, hawks argue that Iran is posturing against the US and its middle eastern allies and has continued work on nuclear weapons which supporters fear could end up in the arms of extremist groups. Independent panels have not supported such so far, but have conceded that in as little as one year Iran could produce a nuclear weapon[2].

I know my breakdown is fairly basic, but I'd like to hear NS's opinions on this whole debacle? Is this Iraq II or something different? Should we go to war or no?



[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 5d25c44e9c
[2] https://news.usni.org/2019/05/14/report ... ar-program

Your breakdown is copied straight from Wikipedia (the footnotes in square brackets is a dead give-away). That said, I see no reason to lock this if you edit the OP to include your opinion. That's considered polite.

Oh, and I fixed your sources. You need a space before the https part for them to work. You're welcome.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Mon May 20, 2019 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spodehaven
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Postby Spodehaven » Mon May 20, 2019 9:40 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Spodehaven wrote:It's no secret that the US is considering War with Iran. For many, this is rining the same bells of Iraq, with fear of both the waste of money and life leading into what will become an endless war. Others speculate an invasion of Iran could prove much harder than that of Iraq and many more US operatives may be killed[1]. On the opposing side, hawks argue that Iran is posturing against the US and its middle eastern allies and has continued work on nuclear weapons which supporters fear could end up in the arms of extremist groups. Independent panels have not supported such so far, but have conceded that in as little as one year Iran could produce a nuclear weapon[2].

I know my breakdown is fairly basic, but I'd like to hear NS's opinions on this whole debacle? Is this Iraq II or something different? Should we go to war or no?



[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 5d25c44e9c
[2] https://news.usni.org/2019/05/14/report ... ar-program

Your breakdown is copied straight from Wikipedia (the footnotes in square brackets is a dead give-away). That said, I see no reason to lock this if you edit the OP to include your opinion. That's considered polite.

Oh, and I fixed your sources. You need a space before the https part for them to work. You're welcome.


What? It's not from Wikipedia. I typed it myself today. I added the footnotes because it's a nice way to look at where I sourced it from. Find me the article where this is written. Seriously I typed this myself.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon May 20, 2019 9:46 am

Spodehaven wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Your breakdown is copied straight from Wikipedia (the footnotes in square brackets is a dead give-away). That said, I see no reason to lock this if you edit the OP to include your opinion. That's considered polite.

Oh, and I fixed your sources. You need a space before the https part for them to work. You're welcome.


What? It's not from Wikipedia. I typed it myself today. I added the footnotes because it's a nice way to look at where I sourced it from. Find me the article where this is written. Seriously I typed this myself.

Huh. My apologies, but you do see how a person, especially one of my age and lofty standing, might be mislead by the square brackets. And anyway, I didn't way that was bad, copying from Wiki. You could do something like this: [1] (quote my post to see how I did that).

I'd still like to see your opinion in the OP, if you haven't added it while I was typing this with my aged and lofty fingers.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Mon May 20, 2019 9:49 am

On one hand, I fully support any motion that can ensure Iran continues to lack nukes, remove the Islamic Republic from Iran, and restore either the monarchy or (if that's not feasible) popular rule to the country. I'd prefer a popular revolution, but that is not very likely in the near future. On the other hand, I live 14 streets from the Ministry of the Interior's main building (roughly 1.16 kilometers), which means if there's an airstrike, I'm this close to being in the blast zone.
Last edited by North German Realm on Mon May 20, 2019 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Andsed » Mon May 20, 2019 9:51 am

A war with Iran is a horrible idea plain and simple. Thousands would die, we would annoy our allies, and makes some great anti America propaganda material and we would gain nothing. But I don´t think even Trump is foolish enough to start a war. At most it will likely just be some threats that he could use to make himself look like a strong leader in his 2020 election campaign.
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Spodehaven
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Postby Spodehaven » Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Spodehaven wrote:
What? It's not from Wikipedia. I typed it myself today. I added the footnotes because it's a nice way to look at where I sourced it from. Find me the article where this is written. Seriously I typed this myself.

Huh. My apologies, but you do see how a person, especially one of my age and lofty standing, might be mislead by the square brackets. And anyway, I didn't way that was bad, copying from Wiki. You could do something like this: [1] (quote my post to see how I did that).

I'd still like to see your opinion in the OP, if you haven't added it while I was typing this with my aged and lofty fingers.


Done.
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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Mon May 20, 2019 9:56 am

Andsed wrote:A war with Iran is a horrible idea plain and simple. Thousands would die, we would annoy our allies, and makes some great anti America propaganda material and we would gain nothing. But I don´t think even Trump is foolish enough to start a war. At most it will likely just be some threats that he could use to make himself look like a strong leader in his 2020 election campaign.

You would be right by assuming that Trump is probably planning only to use this as a "I WAS GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, AND I SCARED THEM INTO SUBMISSION! VOTE FOR ME AGAIN!" thing, but your mistake is assuming Iran's rational enough an actor to realize it. Truth of the matter is, Iran can't survive the sanctions the US Has already put on place, and given it's lost any credibility it had in Iraq and Syria (the former due to popular opposition to Shia Imperialism, the latter thanks to Israel beating the fuck out of them every step of the way this last 2 years) and even Lebanon and """""Palestine""""", it's either War by Israel+Arabs, War by the US, or death by sanctions. The Mullahs have shown they're move of a fan of the second option.
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Postby Diyaristan » Mon May 20, 2019 9:57 am

Not at all. I think America ought to mind America's business... and we have plenty of problems in North America. Not least of which is helping the autodefensas in Mexico who are trying to regain their right to an armed citizenry...

By having bases on dictatorship soil like in Saudi Arabia, a base required for any war with Iran, we are put at the mercy of those countries and can't pursue foreign policy aims to actually, honestly help our real natural allies get the Bill of Rights abroad...

I've said many times before as well, the cause of democracy in Northern Ireland, for another example of what entangling alliances do to undermine what the Patriots really wanted, was compromised to our oldest enemy, some unrepentantly colonialist Brits...

Unilateralism without dependency on foreign bases and permissions, or a return to isolationism, are the only good foreign policy in my view. Why should U.S. troops need to be in the Middle East and assigned to prop up tyrants at all?
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Spodehaven
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Postby Spodehaven » Mon May 20, 2019 9:58 am

North German Realm wrote:
Andsed wrote:A war with Iran is a horrible idea plain and simple. Thousands would die, we would annoy our allies, and makes some great anti America propaganda material and we would gain nothing. But I don´t think even Trump is foolish enough to start a war. At most it will likely just be some threats that he could use to make himself look like a strong leader in his 2020 election campaign.

You would be right by assuming that Trump is probably planning only to use this as a "I WAS GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, AND I SCARED THEM INTO SUBMISSION! VOTE FOR ME AGAIN!" thing, but your mistake is assuming Iran's rational enough an actor to realize it. Truth of the matter is, Iran can't survive the sanctions the US Has already put on place, and given it's lost any credibility it had in Iraq and Syria (the former due to popular opposition to Shia Imperialism, the latter thanks to Israel beating the fuck out of them every step of the way this last 2 years) and even Lebanon and """""Palestine""""", it's either War by Israel+Arabs, War by the US, or death by sanctions. The Mullahs have shown they're move of a fan of the second option.

I don't know about the whole scare tactic thing. I wouldn't put it past him to actually go to war if it somehow could promote the interest of his companies. The inflammatory remarks certainly don't help and the staff is all for going to war. By return to monarchy do you mean the return of the Shahists that were removed in the Iranian revolution?
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon May 20, 2019 10:07 am

A monumentally stupid idea if the States decide to keeping pushing the topic. The only thing it would accomplish is kill thousands and destroy another country in the middle east.

Diyaristan wrote:Not at all. I think America ought to mind America's business... and we have plenty of problems in North America. Not least of which is helping the autodefensas in Mexico who are trying to regain their right to an armed citizenry...

By having bases on dictatorship soil like in Saudi Arabia, a base required for any war with Iran, we are put at the mercy of those countries and can't pursue foreign policy aims to actually, honestly help our real natural allies get the Bill of Rights abroad...

I've said many times before as well, the cause of democracy in Northern Ireland, for another example of what entangling alliances do to undermine what the Patriots really wanted, was compromised to our oldest enemy, some unrepentantly colonialist Brits...

Unilateralism without dependency on foreign bases and permissions, or a return to isolationism, are the only good foreign policy in my view. Why should U.S. troops need to be in the Middle East and assigned to prop up tyrants at all?

Quite a ramble you got there. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say aside from Mexicans need guns (for some reason), something about Ireland and patriots, and isolationism. The only thing I'm certain of is that you are against war with Iran, I think.
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MeinKrafft
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Postby MeinKrafft » Mon May 20, 2019 10:12 am

This is the worst idea ever. Iran is a sovereign country and the United States has no business in it. It seems more likely that the United States is doing this for Israel’s interests rather than our own. I also find it very hypocritical that after we pulled out of the Iran Deal, the one good thing Obama accomplished during his term in office, we hold them accountable to it. John Bolton, that neocon rat, stated he wished to limit Iran’s oil exports to zero? For what? No US interests in that WHATSOEVER. Also, remember Operation Millennium Falcon, where a simulated Iranian invasion was squashed in 1 day with tens of thousands of casualties. This is a bad idea all around.

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MeinKrafft
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Postby MeinKrafft » Mon May 20, 2019 10:14 am

North German Realm wrote:
Andsed wrote:A war with Iran is a horrible idea plain and simple. Thousands would die, we would annoy our allies, and makes some great anti America propaganda material and we would gain nothing. But I don´t think even Trump is foolish enough to start a war. At most it will likely just be some threats that he could use to make himself look like a strong leader in his 2020 election campaign.

You would be right by assuming that Trump is probably planning only to use this as a "I WAS GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, AND I SCARED THEM INTO SUBMISSION! VOTE FOR ME AGAIN!" thing, but your mistake is assuming Iran's rational enough an actor to realize it. Truth of the matter is, Iran can't survive the sanctions the US Has already put on place, and given it's lost any credibility it had in Iraq and Syria (the former due to popular opposition to Shia Imperialism, the latter thanks to Israel beating the fuck out of them every step of the way this last 2 years) and even Lebanon and """""Palestine""""", it's either War by Israel+Arabs, War by the US, or death by sanctions. The Mullahs have shown they're move of a fan of the second option.


Trump may not be dumb enough but the zionists he surrounded himself with, might very well be.

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Ah shit, here we go again...
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Postby North German Realm » Mon May 20, 2019 10:29 am

Spodehaven wrote:
North German Realm wrote:You would be right by assuming that Trump is probably planning only to use this as a "I WAS GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, AND I SCARED THEM INTO SUBMISSION! VOTE FOR ME AGAIN!" thing, but your mistake is assuming Iran's rational enough an actor to realize it. Truth of the matter is, Iran can't survive the sanctions the US Has already put on place, and given it's lost any credibility it had in Iraq and Syria (the former due to popular opposition to Shia Imperialism, the latter thanks to Israel beating the fuck out of them every step of the way this last 2 years) and even Lebanon and """""Palestine""""", it's either War by Israel+Arabs, War by the US, or death by sanctions. The Mullahs have shown they're move of a fan of the second option.

I don't know about the whole scare tactic thing. I wouldn't put it past him to actually go to war if it somehow could promote the interest of his companies. The inflammatory remarks certainly don't help and the staff is all for going to war. By return to monarchy do you mean the return of the Shahists that were removed in the Iranian revolution?
Yes. Fortunately, the majority in Iran have learned almost intimately what a fucking mistake that was.

MeinKrafft wrote:
North German Realm wrote:You would be right by assuming that Trump is probably planning only to use this as a "I WAS GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, AND I SCARED THEM INTO SUBMISSION! VOTE FOR ME AGAIN!" thing, but your mistake is assuming Iran's rational enough an actor to realize it. Truth of the matter is, Iran can't survive the sanctions the US Has already put on place, and given it's lost any credibility it had in Iraq and Syria (the former due to popular opposition to Shia Imperialism, the latter thanks to Israel beating the fuck out of them every step of the way this last 2 years) and even Lebanon and """""Palestine""""", it's either War by Israel+Arabs, War by the US, or death by sanctions. The Mullahs have shown they're move of a fan of the second option.


Trump may not be dumb enough but the zionists he surrounded himself with, might very well be.

Oh please. Trump is the least intelligent member of his own cabinet. If he's smart enough to just realize "War bad, making people think I scared an enemy by threatening war good" now, his cabinet already knew it in 2016.
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North Germany
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Tensions rise as Europe bickers over the brutal assassination of a Bavarian Noble in Speyer! Is a Second Brother's War inevitable?
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Mon May 20, 2019 10:44 am

Diyaristan wrote:Not at all. I think America ought to mind America's business... and we have plenty of problems in North America. Not least of which is helping the autodefensas in Mexico who are trying to regain their right to an armed citizenry...

By having bases on dictatorship soil like in Saudi Arabia, a base required for any war with Iran, we are put at the mercy of those countries and can't pursue foreign policy aims to actually, honestly help our real natural allies get the Bill of Rights abroad...

I've said many times before as well, the cause of democracy in Northern Ireland, for another example of what entangling alliances do to undermine what the Patriots really wanted, was compromised to our oldest enemy, some unrepentantly colonialist Brits...

Unilateralism without dependency on foreign bases and permissions, or a return to isolationism, are the only good foreign policy in my view. Why should U.S. troops need to be in the Middle East and assigned to prop up tyrants at all?

Wait, a shithole theocracy making threats against us and funding terrorist groups (some of whom have tangled with us) isn't our business?
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Postby Heloin » Mon May 20, 2019 10:48 am

Scomagia wrote:
Diyaristan wrote:Not at all. I think America ought to mind America's business... and we have plenty of problems in North America. Not least of which is helping the autodefensas in Mexico who are trying to regain their right to an armed citizenry...

By having bases on dictatorship soil like in Saudi Arabia, a base required for any war with Iran, we are put at the mercy of those countries and can't pursue foreign policy aims to actually, honestly help our real natural allies get the Bill of Rights abroad...

I've said many times before as well, the cause of democracy in Northern Ireland, for another example of what entangling alliances do to undermine what the Patriots really wanted, was compromised to our oldest enemy, some unrepentantly colonialist Brits...

Unilateralism without dependency on foreign bases and permissions, or a return to isolationism, are the only good foreign policy in my view. Why should U.S. troops need to be in the Middle East and assigned to prop up tyrants at all?

Wait, a shithole theocracy making threats against us and funding terrorist groups (some of whom have tangled with us) isn't our business?

Saudi Arabia.
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Postby North German Realm » Mon May 20, 2019 10:49 am

Heloin wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Wait, a shithole theocracy making threats against us and funding terrorist groups (some of whom have tangled with us) isn't our business?

Saudi Arabia.

Since when is Saudi Arabia chanting "Death to America" every Friday (and more importantly, actively acting as a threat to American security as a National State)?
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Tensions rise as Europe bickers over the brutal assassination of a Bavarian Noble in Speyer! Is a Second Brother's War inevitable?
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Postby Upper Saust Latiegebestica » Mon May 20, 2019 10:50 am

Spodehaven wrote:It's no secret that the US is considering War with Iran. For many, this is rining the same bells of Iraq, with fear of both the waste of money and life leading into what will become an endless war. Others speculate an invasion of Iran could prove much harder than that of Iraq and many more US operatives may be killed[1]. On the opposing side, hawks argue that Iran is posturing against the US and its middle eastern allies and has continued work on nuclear weapons which supporters fear could end up in the arms of extremist groups. Independent panels have not supported such so far, but have conceded that in as little as one year Iran could produce a nuclear weapon[2].

I know my breakdown is fairly basic, but I'd like to hear NS's opinions on this whole debacle? Is this Iraq II or something different? Should we go to war or no?

In my opinion, the war should certainly be avoided at all costs. Consistently US meddling in the affairs of other nations has yet to result in many benefits worldwide. Iraq has been the biggest disaster of all, as it left a power vacuum that has supported the growth of ISIS and other extremist groups that are a threat to all nations today. Perhaps we will have learned from our mistakes, but that's being optimistic in my eyes. Even if we try to establish some form of Pro-US government in Iran, it probably will have to be a dictator to remain that way. I don't see the removal of a current, popular government for a US dictator as ethical at all.


[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 5d25c44e9c
[2] https://news.usni.org/2019/05/14/report ... ar-program

The Only reason we are considering war with them is because they are threatening us. Contrary to what the Left says, Nobody wants a war in Iran, not Bolton, not the President. The President himself ran on keeping us out of wars. The war should be avoided, but the way things are going suggests that we may have some incident whether we like it or not.

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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Mon May 20, 2019 10:50 am

Heloin wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Wait, a shithole theocracy making threats against us and funding terrorist groups (some of whom have tangled with us) isn't our business?

Saudi Arabia.

What's your point? Hard to know what you're getting at when you give a two word response, son.
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Postby Gormwood » Mon May 20, 2019 10:51 am

North German Realm wrote:
Heloin wrote:Saudi Arabia.

Since when is Saudi Arabia chanting "Death to America" every Friday (and more importantly, actively acting as a threat to American security as a National State)?

Funding Wahhabist madrassas across the world, and remember how many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.
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Postby Dogmeat » Mon May 20, 2019 10:51 am

Poorly thought-out foreign entanglements... Poorly thought-out foreign entanglements never changes.
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Postby Gormwood » Mon May 20, 2019 10:53 am

Dogmeat wrote:Poorly thought-out foreign entanglements... Poorly thought-out foreign entanglements never changes.

At least those had a modicum of thought involved.
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Postby Scomagia » Mon May 20, 2019 10:53 am

Upper Saust Latiegebestica wrote:
Spodehaven wrote:It's no secret that the US is considering War with Iran. For many, this is rining the same bells of Iraq, with fear of both the waste of money and life leading into what will become an endless war. Others speculate an invasion of Iran could prove much harder than that of Iraq and many more US operatives may be killed[1]. On the opposing side, hawks argue that Iran is posturing against the US and its middle eastern allies and has continued work on nuclear weapons which supporters fear could end up in the arms of extremist groups. Independent panels have not supported such so far, but have conceded that in as little as one year Iran could produce a nuclear weapon[2].

I know my breakdown is fairly basic, but I'd like to hear NS's opinions on this whole debacle? Is this Iraq II or something different? Should we go to war or no?

In my opinion, the war should certainly be avoided at all costs. Consistently US meddling in the affairs of other nations has yet to result in many benefits worldwide. Iraq has been the biggest disaster of all, as it left a power vacuum that has supported the growth of ISIS and other extremist groups that are a threat to all nations today. Perhaps we will have learned from our mistakes, but that's being optimistic in my eyes. Even if we try to establish some form of Pro-US government in Iran, it probably will have to be a dictator to remain that way. I don't see the removal of a current, popular government for a US dictator as ethical at all.


[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... 5d25c44e9c
[2] https://news.usni.org/2019/05/14/report ... ar-program

The Only reason we are considering war with them is because they are threatening us. Contrary to what the Left says, Nobody wants a war in Iran, not Bolton, not the President. The President himself ran on keeping us out of wars. The war should be avoided, but the way things are going suggests that we may have some incident whether we like it or not.

I agree that no one is actually intending to go to war, despite the perpetual handwringing about Trump being a madman and so on. If hostilities do start, I expect it'll be in response to an attack by Iran.
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Postby Upper Saust Latiegebestica » Mon May 20, 2019 10:57 am

Gormwood wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:Poorly thought-out foreign entanglements... Poorly thought-out foreign entanglements never changes.

At least those had a modicum of thought involved.

This is actually very thought out. Iran threatened us, so we send a deterent force over to tell them not to follow through. If anything, Iran is the one not think through this.

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