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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
115
26%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
52
12%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
43
10%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
147
33%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
18
4%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
68
15%
 
Total votes : 443

User avatar
Cappuccina
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Posts: 1516
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cappuccina » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:19 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:People talking about 'rights" not actually caring about these supposed "rights", big shock.

Wdym?

I think I misread, tbh. Kowani apparently doesn't believe in rights? Wtf is he arguing for then?
Obligatory Pronouns so you don't oppress me with misgendering: her/she....yay
##################
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.46

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Nakena
Senator
 
Posts: 4124
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:03 am

Cappuccina wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Wdym?

I think I misread, tbh. Kowani apparently doesn't believe in rights? Wtf is he arguing for then?


Fully Automated Gay Space Communism.

So I have been told.
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Female or they/them pronoun preferred but not required
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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24990
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:15 am

State Atheism, which is essentially a religion in itself has proven to be just as oppressive as the worst religions. It is absolutely not a solution to religious radicalism.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Napkizemlja
Diplomat
 
Posts: 533
Founded: Apr 13, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Napkizemlja » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:55 am

Since religions survived the Stalinist era and communist Romania, continue to survive in the PRC and North Korea, Kowani's ideas are doomed to failure. People will just use their homes as places of worship, just as they do now in the PRC, North Korea, and in fundamentalist states (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc) and other secret locations. It's also how Christianity survived and spread in Antiquity until it became socially tolerated. Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc will just go underground just as they have in the past until society gets its head out of its ass.


This is also why utilitarians are dangerous since they often slip into brutal totalitarianism.
Last edited by Napkizemlja on Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Orthodox Christian and aspiring MD. Communitarian. Anti-usury. Ralph Fiennes is Serbian.

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Greater Adamsia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 145
Founded: Jun 29, 2019
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Greater Adamsia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:19 am

Napkizemlja wrote:Since religions survived the Stalinist era and communist Romania, continue to survive in the PRC and North Korea, Kowani's ideas are doomed to failure. People will just use their homes as places of worship, just as they do now in the PRC, North Korea, and in fundamentalist states (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc) and other secret locations. It's also how Christianity survived and spread in Antiquity until it became socially tolerated. Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc will just go underground just as they have in the past until society gets its head out of its ass.


This is also why utilitarians are dangerous since they often slip into brutal totalitarianism.


If I may, Kowani is only a utilitarian on a macro level, i.e. with regards to society. With regards to the self, he’s an egoistic hedonist. Ah, but I’m nitpicking, somewhat. I concur with your broader point, that religious practice will just go underground.
<THE REPUBLIC OF ADAMSIA>
The Republic of Adamsia was founded on the shores of Massachusetts Bay by the Puritans as a new Zion, as a
theocratic utopia in the wilderness of New England. Adamsia has a culture that emphasizes duty, and stresses the good of the
community even if (and especially if) it requires individual self-abnegation. The majority of Puritan settlers in early Adamsians
were educated to some degree; as such, Adamsian culture has a generally "bourgeois" ethos and immense respect for
intellectual achievement. While in modern times, religiosity and spirituality has waned somewhat, the zealous drive to achieve
social and moral perfection has oft been labeled as "secular Puritanism" by detractors.

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Al Mumtahanah
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Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:19 am

Kowani wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Which is French for secularism

Nope.

Laïcité ([la.i.si.te]), literally "secularity", is a French concept of secularism. It discourages religious involvement in government affairs, especially religious influence in the determination of state policies; it also forbids government involvement in religious affairs, and especially prohibits government influence in the determination of religion. However, laïcité doesn't preclude a right to the free exercise of religion. [1][2]
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:23 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:I don't know what secularism has to do with religious freedom, France is very secular yet cracking down on religious freedom.

Not every secular government grants religious freedom. But every government that grants religious freedom is secular.

That's false.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Ohioan Territory
Diplomat
 
Posts: 775
Founded: Dec 22, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Ohioan Territory » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:27 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Not every secular government grants religious freedom. But every government that grants religious freedom is secular.

That's false.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but can you give examples, then?
American. Pragmatist. Concerned with bettering the lives of everyday Americans through improving education, workers’ rights, and ending the opioid crisis. Harris / Buttigieg / Yang 2020.

My political philosophy has changed substantially in the last year. Posts prior to 2019 might not, and probably do not, align with my current views.

Economic Left/Right: -2.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.74
See my factbook for more in-depths views of mine.

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Fahran
Senator
 
Posts: 4693
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:38 am

Ohioan Territory wrote:Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but can you give examples, then?

Quakers?
Literally the worst.

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Greater Adamsia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 145
Founded: Jun 29, 2019
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Greater Adamsia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:41 am

Fahran wrote:
Ohioan Territory wrote:Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but can you give examples, then?

Quakers?


Ah, my home state. Founded on utopian ideals... which the state sadly has abandoned. Also, please visit PA, we need the tourism dollars, since the Commonwealth is fucking broke.
<THE REPUBLIC OF ADAMSIA>
The Republic of Adamsia was founded on the shores of Massachusetts Bay by the Puritans as a new Zion, as a
theocratic utopia in the wilderness of New England. Adamsia has a culture that emphasizes duty, and stresses the good of the
community even if (and especially if) it requires individual self-abnegation. The majority of Puritan settlers in early Adamsians
were educated to some degree; as such, Adamsian culture has a generally "bourgeois" ethos and immense respect for
intellectual achievement. While in modern times, religiosity and spirituality has waned somewhat, the zealous drive to achieve
social and moral perfection has oft been labeled as "secular Puritanism" by detractors.

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24990
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:44 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Not every secular government grants religious freedom. But every government that grants religious freedom is secular.

That's false.


A religious government granting true religious freedom is extremely rare.
BTW if you criminalize apostasy you are not allowing religious freedom, regardless of if you allow other religions to exist as second class citizens.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Greater Adamsia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 145
Founded: Jun 29, 2019
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Greater Adamsia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:46 am

Novus America wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:That's false.


A religious government granting true religious freedom is extremely rare.
BTW if you criminalize apostasy you are not allowing religious freedom, regardless of if you allow other religions to exist as second class citizens.


My home state and current state of residence, Pennsylvania, didn’t criminalize apostasy back in the colonial days, to my knowledge at least.
<THE REPUBLIC OF ADAMSIA>
The Republic of Adamsia was founded on the shores of Massachusetts Bay by the Puritans as a new Zion, as a
theocratic utopia in the wilderness of New England. Adamsia has a culture that emphasizes duty, and stresses the good of the
community even if (and especially if) it requires individual self-abnegation. The majority of Puritan settlers in early Adamsians
were educated to some degree; as such, Adamsian culture has a generally "bourgeois" ethos and immense respect for
intellectual achievement. While in modern times, religiosity and spirituality has waned somewhat, the zealous drive to achieve
social and moral perfection has oft been labeled as "secular Puritanism" by detractors.

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:59 am

Ohioan Territory wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:That's false.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but can you give examples, then?

Muslim states
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
North German Realm
Minister
 
Posts: 2109
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:01 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Ohioan Territory wrote:Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but can you give examples, then?

Muslim states

There is literally no country, historical or modern, that has had its law based on Islam, that has respected -much less upheld- religious freedom. The very existence of law-based-on-religion is by its nature against religious freedom lmao.
Last edited by North German Realm on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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North Germany
Norddeutschland

As The Great War wages, North Germans lose six men for every meter of land they reclaim from Allied Occupation!
Overview | Kaiser | Chancellor | Legislature | Military
19, Feb 1910
Norddeutsche Morgenpost: Sweden joins the Great War by invading Finland, Russia! | Landship Committee created in Berlin. | Native revolt put down in occupied Gold Coast by the Colonial Army. | The Dalai Lama flees to British India after Chinese aggression in Tibet | Beloved French Aviator killed in freak accident during airshow.

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Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:05 am

North German Realm wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Muslim states

There is literally no country, historical or modern, that has had its law based on Islam, that has respected -much less upheld- religious freedom. The very existence of law-based-on-religion is by its nature against religious freedom lmao.

Islam applies different laws to you depending on your religion, you follow the laws of your holy book or clergy.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Duvniask
Minister
 
Posts: 3494
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:14 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
North German Realm wrote:There is literally no country, historical or modern, that has had its law based on Islam, that has respected -much less upheld- religious freedom. The very existence of law-based-on-religion is by its nature against religious freedom lmao.

Islam applies different laws to you depending on your religion, you follow the laws of your holy book or clergy.

And if my beliefs entail neither clergy nor a holy book?
Anime America was a mistake.

Economic Left/Right: -9.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

All your toothbrush are belong to us.

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Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 am

Duvniask wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Islam applies different laws to you depending on your religion, you follow the laws of your holy book or clergy.

And if my beliefs entail neither clergy nor a holy book?

You mean you're a moral relativist?
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Duvniask
Minister
 
Posts: 3494
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Duvniask wrote:And if my beliefs entail neither clergy nor a holy book?

You mean you're a moral relativist?

I do not consider myself so, where did you get that impression?
Last edited by Duvniask on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anime America was a mistake.

Economic Left/Right: -9.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

All your toothbrush are belong to us.

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:20 am

Duvniask wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:You mean you're a moral relativist?

I do not consider myself so, where did you get that impression?

Because you don't have a moral system that is important enough for you to even write down
Last edited by Al Mumtahanah on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
Duvniask
Minister
 
Posts: 3494
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:27 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Duvniask wrote:I do not consider myself so, where did you get that impression?

Because you don't have a moral system that is important enough for you to even write down

So are you going to answer my initial question, by the way?

And, as a moral realist I don't need to draw my morality from books, much less a single one.
Anime America was a mistake.

Economic Left/Right: -9.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

All your toothbrush are belong to us.

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:33 am

Duvniask wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Because you don't have a moral system that is important enough for you to even write down

So are you going to answer my initial question, by the way?

And, as a moral realist I don't need to draw my morality from books, much less a single one.

If you can't articulate a moral code others can depend on you to follow, there's a problem.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

User avatar
North German Realm
Minister
 
Posts: 2109
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:37 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
North German Realm wrote:There is literally no country, historical or modern, that has had its law based on Islam, that has respected -much less upheld- religious freedom. The very existence of law-based-on-religion is by its nature against religious freedom lmao.

Islam applies different laws to you depending on your religion, you follow the laws of your holy book or clergy.

Even if that were not a bold-faced lie (as there is no such thing as "following the laws of your holy book or clergy" if you're not an Ahlulkitaab), it would only make Islam religiously pluralistic in terms of law (which is, of course, a bad thing in and of itself) and irrelevant to religious freedom, that is to say "a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance. It also includes the freedom to change one's religion or beliefs."

Islam has never upheld religious freedom, because by its very nature it stands in its opposition.
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
North Germany
Norddeutschland

As The Great War wages, North Germans lose six men for every meter of land they reclaim from Allied Occupation!
Overview | Kaiser | Chancellor | Legislature | Military
19, Feb 1910
Norddeutsche Morgenpost: Sweden joins the Great War by invading Finland, Russia! | Landship Committee created in Berlin. | Native revolt put down in occupied Gold Coast by the Colonial Army. | The Dalai Lama flees to British India after Chinese aggression in Tibet | Beloved French Aviator killed in freak accident during airshow.

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24990
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:39 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Ohioan Territory wrote:Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but can you give examples, then?

Muslim states


They absolutely do not.
Allowing a religious minority to exist, within in strict confines is not religious freedom.
Penalize apostasy (but only for one religion, Christians in Muslim states can not punish apostates who convert to Islam), you grossly violated religious freedom.

The state funds mosques yet strongly restricts the ability of Christians to build churches? Also violates religious freedom.

Of course also Atheists get nothing either, not even second class citizenship.
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Duvniask
Minister
 
Posts: 3494
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:40 am

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Duvniask wrote:So are you going to answer my initial question, by the way?

And, as a moral realist I don't need to draw my morality from books, much less a single one.

If you can't articulate a moral code others can depend on you to follow, there's a problem.

Nowhere did I say that I, or others like me who spend way more time thinking about these matters, couldn't articulate a moral code, just that there's no great, holy work from which such a moral code could be extrapolated.

Now, answer me this, what's my religious freedom under the Islamic state you speak so fervently in favor of?
Last edited by Duvniask on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anime America was a mistake.

Economic Left/Right: -9.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

All your toothbrush are belong to us.

User avatar
Al Mumtahanah
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: Jun 21, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Al Mumtahanah » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:43 am

Novus America wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:Muslim states


They absolutely do not.
Allowing a religious minority to exist, which in strict confines is not religious freedom.
Penalize apostasy (but only for one religion, Christians in Muslim states can not punish apostates who convert to Islam), you grossly violated religious freedom.

The state funds mosques yet strongly restricts the ability of Christians to build churches? Also violates religious freedom.

Of course also Atheists get nothing either, not even second class citizenship.

Strict confines? Christians have served in Muslim government.
Ifreann wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How about if I don't wanna learn about Islam I shouldn't have to?

Makes about as much sense as letting kids decide that if they don't wanna eat then they shouldn't have to.

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