NationStates

Kowani wrote:

Camelone wrote:From what I’ve gathered the judicial doctrine of judicial review came about from the Supreme Court case Marbury v Madison but I’ve always found the logic a little shaky constitutionally.

Well, yeah. I just have no idea how they got there. My knowledge of US Law is quite limited.

Camelone wrote:So there is no way to attain the good life, only maximize our own personal pleasure? Nihilism has always felt to me the philosophy of throwing your hands up and saying I give up in the pursuit of truth. The entire pursuit is about struggling, reflection, challenging, and expanding ones ability to find what it means to attain the good life and the means to order society in a way to promote the good life.

I will quote my response to a TG asking me about my nihilism.
I suppose the thing is that I don’t see nihilism as opposed to optimism. Yeah, on the cosmic scale, nothing we do matters. We die, our descendants’ll die, the sun’ll die, and the universe will eventually become uninhabitable. But we don’t experience things on the cosmic scale, we experience them on the lifetime scale. Our experiences, because of the fact that we can experience them, have inherent value to us. Life is not inherently suffering and pain, it is just life. What you choose to take away from those experiences is up to you. You have one life, one attempt. So, why not make it as enjoyable as possible?

(No longer quoting)
Nihilism is not the search for truth, but rather, the realization and acceptance of that truth, that what we do is not relevant in the long term, but that does not mean that it is meaningless. The good life is the one you live, no more, no less.

Ah I see so two completely different world views we have then.

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:He was convicted of crimes against peace. Crimes against peace... for attempting to negotiate peace?

For attempting to further Nazi Germany's goals of genocide by attempting to get the British out of the war.

He wasn't attempting to further the Holocaust. He thought Germany would get screwed fighting a two-front war and, remarkably enough, he was right.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:Speer was a monster?

Generally don't know much about him aside from his writings, tbh.

Oh absolutely, arguably one of the worst figures in the Third Reich imo. Despite his claims of not knowing about the Holocaust he personally wrote off the planned upgrades that turned Auschwitz from a concentration camp into a death camp, he was happy to willfully enslave vast numbers of people and work them to death for the war effort, at least on one occasion he personally complained to Himmler that the conditions at Mauthausen camp were too humane etc etc. It's a joke that he was let go.

And to think he got released after 25 years. What a joke.

Nova Cyberia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
For attempting to further Nazi Germany's goals of genocide by attempting to get the British out of the war.

He wasn't attempting to further the Holocaust. He thought Germany would get screwed fighting a two-front war and, remarkably enough, he was right.

It's like you're completely missing the part where they would've had a much better time committing their genocide and fulfilling Lebensraum (which would've been even more genocide, surprise surprise) if they weren't in a two-front war, which is the whole fucking point. Rudolf Hess's attempt at peace would've furthered the Holocaust had he succeeded.

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:He wasn't attempting to further the Holocaust. He thought Germany would get screwed fighting a two-front war and, remarkably enough, he was right.

It's like you're completely missing the part where they would've had a much better time committing their genocide and fulfilling Lebensraum (which would've been even more genocide, surprise surprise) if they weren't in a two-front war, which is the whole fucking point. Rudolf Hess's attempt at peace would've furthered the Holocaust had he succeeded.

I see. So you're essentially trying to hold him responsible for things he wasn't trying to do and had no involvement in.

Yep. Nuremberg was definitely a joke.

Nova Cyberia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
It's like you're completely missing the part where they would've had a much better time committing their genocide and fulfilling Lebensraum (which would've been even more genocide, surprise surprise) if they weren't in a two-front war, which is the whole fucking point. Rudolf Hess's attempt at peace would've furthered the Holocaust had he succeeded.

I see. So you're essentially trying to hold him responsible for things he wasn't trying to do and had no involvement in.

Yep. Nuremberg was definitely a joke.

Do you seriously think the man who was the fucking Deputy Fuhrer to Adolf fuckin' Hitler wouldn't have A) known about the intentions of the Nazi Party and B) known that brokering peace with the British would've given the Nazis a much easier time in accomplishing their goals of genocide, which were goals that were more than well-known by then, especially by members of the Nazi leadership, such as Hess himself?

Are you fucking serious right now?

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:I see. So you're essentially trying to hold him responsible for things he wasn't trying to do and had no involvement in.

Yep. Nuremberg was definitely a joke.

Do you seriously think the man who was the fucking Deputy Fuhrer to Adolf fuckin' Hitler wouldn't have A) known about the intentions of the Nazi Party and B) known that brokering peace with the British would've given the Nazis a much easier time in accomplishing their goals of genocide, which were goals that were more than well-known by then, especially by members of the Nazi leadership, such as Hess himself?

Are you fucking serious right now?

Hess had been pretty much sidelined by the time he went to the UK. Turns out that concentrating all power in Hitler's hands didn't leave much room for a Deputy Führer.

Nova Cyberia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Do you seriously think the man who was the fucking Deputy Fuhrer to Adolf fuckin' Hitler wouldn't have A) known about the intentions of the Nazi Party and B) known that brokering peace with the British would've given the Nazis a much easier time in accomplishing their goals of genocide, which were goals that were more than well-known by then, especially by members of the Nazi leadership, such as Hess himself?

Are you fucking serious right now?

Hess had been pretty much sidelined by the time he went to the UK. Turns out that concentrating all power in Hitler's hands didn't leave much room for a Deputy Führer.

That's irrelevant to whether or not he knew if genocide was being planned in the Eastern Front... which he knew.

Nova Cyberia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Do you seriously think the man who was the fucking Deputy Fuhrer to Adolf fuckin' Hitler wouldn't have A) known about the intentions of the Nazi Party and B) known that brokering peace with the British would've given the Nazis a much easier time in accomplishing their goals of genocide, which were goals that were more than well-known by then, especially by members of the Nazi leadership, such as Hess himself?

Are you fucking serious right now?

Hess had been pretty much sidelined by the time he went to the UK. Turns out that concentrating all power in Hitler's hands didn't leave much room for a Deputy Führer.

Apparently him being in Hitler's inner circle to the point of helping Hitler fucking write Mein Kampf and sign into law the Nuremberg Laws, and the fact that he was personally devoted to Hitler to the point of trying to get fucking Britain out of the war so that Hitler could succeed with Lebensraum and the Holocaust is utterly, completely irrelevant.

Face it, your little narrative of Hess being an innocent good boy who did nothing wrong is complete fucking bullshit. He knew full well about the Lebensraum and the Holocaust and knew exactly what Barbarossa was going to entail, which is why he tried getting to Britain to broker peace. His actions, had they succeeded, would've furthered the Nazi regime's goals, which he knew full well what they were.

Camelone wrote:

Kowani wrote: Well, yeah. I just have no idea how they got there. My knowledge of US Law is quite limited.

I will quote my response to a TG asking me about my nihilism.
I suppose the thing is that I don’t see nihilism as opposed to optimism. Yeah, on the cosmic scale, nothing we do matters. We die, our descendants’ll die, the sun’ll die, and the universe will eventually become uninhabitable. But we don’t experience things on the cosmic scale, we experience them on the lifetime scale. Our experiences, because of the fact that we can experience them, have inherent value to us. Life is not inherently suffering and pain, it is just life. What you choose to take away from those experiences is up to you. You have one life, one attempt. So, why not make it as enjoyable as possible?

(No longer quoting)
Nihilism is not the search for truth, but rather, the realization and acceptance of that truth, that what we do is not relevant in the long term, but that does not mean that it is meaningless. The good life is the one you live, no more, no less.

Ah I see so two completely different world views we have then.

Very.

Torrocca wrote:snip

Gotta disagree with your mindset here. Whilst we can speculate and throw around theories to act like we know what was going on with the flight we ultimately won't know the actual truth and the why of it all until the Brits declassify all their information.

Not to mention it becomes an even more complicated story when you start considering things like the Hugh Thomas stories as potentially true and that the man the Brits had in prison after Nuremburg wasn't actually Hess and such things.

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:Hess had been pretty much sidelined by the time he went to the UK. Turns out that concentrating all power in Hitler's hands didn't leave much room for a Deputy Führer.

Apparently him being in Hitler's inner circle to the point of helping Hitler fucking write Mein Kampf and sign into law the Nuremberg Laws, and the fact that he was personally devoted to Hitler to the point of trying to get fucking Britain out of the war so that Hitler could succeed with Lebensraum and the Holocaust is utterly, completely irrelevant.

Face it, your little narrative of Hess being an innocent good boy who did nothing wrong is complete fucking bullshit. He knew full well about the Lebensraum and the Holocaust and knew exactly what Barbarossa was going to entail, which is why he tried getting to Britain to broker peace. His actions, had they succeeded, would've furthered the Nazi regime's goals, which he knew full well what they were.

I'm not saying he's innocent. Good grief, learn to read. Obviously he isn't completely innocent. He was a Nazi.

But I'm saying he should be convicted for what he actually did. He went to the UK to make peace and stop Germany from getting screwed the way they did. He didn't do it to advance the Holocaust.

Good fucking grief, get a grip.

Nova Cyberia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
Apparently him being in Hitler's inner circle to the point of helping Hitler fucking write Mein Kampf and sign into law the Nuremberg Laws, and the fact that he was personally devoted to Hitler to the point of trying to get fucking Britain out of the war so that Hitler could succeed with Lebensraum and the Holocaust is utterly, completely irrelevant.

Face it, your little narrative of Hess being an innocent good boy who did nothing wrong is complete fucking bullshit. He knew full well about the Lebensraum and the Holocaust and knew exactly what Barbarossa was going to entail, which is why he tried getting to Britain to broker peace. His actions, had they succeeded, would've furthered the Nazi regime's goals, which he knew full well what they were.

I'm not saying he's innocent. Good grief, learn to read. Obviously he isn't completely innocent. He was a Nazi.

But I'm saying he should be convicted for what he actually did. He went to the UK to make peace and stop Germany from getting screwed the way they did. He didn't do it to advance the Holocaust.

Good fucking grief, get a grip.

I love how you continue to ignore the part where he quite literally knew about the Holocaust, helped write fucking Mein Kampf, and was completely devoted to Hitler and the Nazi cause. Apparently, though, somehow him trying to broker peace specifically so that the Nazis could have an easier time Lebensrauming across Eastern Europe and genociding millions of people in the Holocaust by not having men and resources tied up in a two-front war actually means he wasn't actually trying to further the goals of the Nazi cause. Right. Totally. His endeavor for peace was an entirely innocent little thing that had no implications regarding the furthering of Nazi goals whatsoever that he would've been fully aware of. That's correct. He strove for peace for peace's sake and literally nothing else. Obviously.

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:I'm not saying he's innocent. Good grief, learn to read. Obviously he isn't completely innocent. He was a Nazi.

But I'm saying he should be convicted for what he actually did. He went to the UK to make peace and stop Germany from getting screwed the way they did. He didn't do it to advance the Holocaust.

Good fucking grief, get a grip.

I love how you continue to ignore the part where he quite literally knew about the Holocaust, helped write fucking Mein Kampf, and was completely devoted to Hitler and the Nazi cause. Apparently, though, somehow him trying to broker peace specifically so that the Nazis could have an easier time Lebensrauming across Eastern Europe and genociding millions of people in the Holocaust by not having men and resources tied up in a two-front war actually means he wasn't actually trying to further the goals of the Nazi cause. Right. Totally. His endeavor for peace was an entirely innocent little thing that had no implications regarding the furthering of Nazi goals whatsoever that he would've been fully aware of. That's correct. He strove for peace for peace's sake and literally nothing else. Obviously.

The Holocaust began in 1941. He fucking left Germany in 1941 and was imprisoned in Britain until the war's conclusion, so forgive me but I'm gonna have to question how much he actually knew about it or was involved in it.

Also, he can't have been that devoted to Hitler since he went around him to try and make peace with the Brits.

Nova Cyberia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
I love how you continue to ignore the part where he quite literally knew about the Holocaust, helped write fucking Mein Kampf, and was completely devoted to Hitler and the Nazi cause. Apparently, though, somehow him trying to broker peace specifically so that the Nazis could have an easier time Lebensrauming across Eastern Europe and genociding millions of people in the Holocaust by not having men and resources tied up in a two-front war actually means he wasn't actually trying to further the goals of the Nazi cause. Right. Totally. His endeavor for peace was an entirely innocent little thing that had no implications regarding the furthering of Nazi goals whatsoever that he would've been fully aware of. That's correct. He strove for peace for peace's sake and literally nothing else. Obviously.

The Holocaust began in 1941. He fucking left Germany in 1941 and was imprisoned in Britain until the war's conclusion, so forgive me but I'm gonna have to question how much he actually knew about it or was involved in it.

>Literally helped write Mein Kampf
>Was one of the people most directly responsible for 1935's Nuremberg Laws
>Stood by Hitler's side at literally all of his rallies and speeches ever
>Was a member of Hitler's inner circle and the Nazi high command
>"I'M GoNnA hAvE tO qUeStiOn HoW mUcH hE kNeW AbOuT tHiS!!1!"

Fucking LMAO. Like you said, get a fucking grip.

Also, he can't have been that devoted to Hitler since he went around him to try and make peace with the Brits.

Specifically to help further Hitler's goals in Eastern Europe, which you continue to conveniently ignore.

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:The Holocaust began in 1941. He fucking left Germany in 1941 and was imprisoned in Britain until the war's conclusion, so forgive me but I'm gonna have to question how much he actually knew about it or was involved in it.

>Literally helped write Mein Kampf
>Was one of the people most directly responsible for 1935's Nuremberg Laws
>Stood by Hitler's side at literally all of his rallies and speeches ever
>Was a member of Hitler's inner circle and the Nazi high command
>"I'M GoNnA hAvE tO qUeStiOn HoW mUcH hE kNeW AbOuT tHiS!!1!"

Fucking LMAO. Like you said, get a fucking grip.

He was imprisoned during the Holocaust. It's literally impossible for him to have been involved in it or known much about it.

See, you have difficulty with punishing people for what they actually did.

Also, he can't have been that devoted to Hitler since he went around him to try and make peace with the Brits.

Specifically to help further Hitler's goals in Eastern Europe, which you continue to conveniently ignore.

To prevent Germany from getting destroyed in a two-front war.

Nova Cyberia wrote:

Torrocca wrote:
>Literally helped write Mein Kampf
>Was one of the people most directly responsible for 1935's Nuremberg Laws
>Stood by Hitler's side at literally all of his rallies and speeches ever
>Was a member of Hitler's inner circle and the Nazi high command
>"I'M GoNnA hAvE tO qUeStiOn HoW mUcH hE kNeW AbOuT tHiS!!1!"

Fucking LMAO. Like you said, get a fucking grip.

He was imprisoned during the Holocaust. It's literally impossible for him to have been involved in it or known much about it.

TIL'd Mein Kampf, the Stab-In-The-Back myth, the years of growing repression against Germany's own Jewish and other minority populations, Aktion T4, Kritallnacht, the Nuremberg Laws, the expulsion and emigration of thousands of Jews, the ghettos, the concentration camps and forced labor camps, and the various Pogroms that ALL happened before Hess's actual imprisonment were all things he literally had no knowledge of nor involvement in, in any capacity whatsoever.

10/10.

See, you have difficulty with punishing people for what they actually did.

Nah, you just have difficulty grasping the simple concept that a devoted member of Hitler's inner circle would've been fully informed of the Nazi Party's plans and actions.

Specifically to help further Hitler's goals in Eastern Europe, which you continue to conveniently ignore.

To prevent Germany from getting destroyed in a two-front war.

So that Germany could've accomplished Lebensraum with ease. You can stop your apologia for a member of Hitler's inner circle any time now.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:Speer was a monster?

Generally don't know much about him aside from his writings, tbh.

Oh absolutely, arguably one of the worst figures in the Third Reich imo. Despite his claims of not knowing about the Holocaust he personally wrote off the planned upgrades that turned Auschwitz from a concentration camp into a death camp, he was happy to willfully enslave vast numbers of people and work them to death for the war effort, at least on one occasion he personally complained to Himmler that the conditions at Mauthausen camp were too humane etc etc. It's a joke that he was let go.

Ironically enough it was David Irving of all people who uncovered many of the discrepancies in Speer's accounts.

Kowani wrote:I will quote my response to a TG asking me about my nihilism.
I suppose the thing is that I don’t see nihilism as opposed to optimism. Yeah, on the cosmic scale, nothing we do matters. We die, our descendants’ll die, the sun’ll die, and the universe will eventually become uninhabitable. But we don’t experience things on the cosmic scale, we experience them on the lifetime scale. Our experiences, because of the fact that we can experience them, have inherent value to us. Life is not inherently suffering and pain, it is just life. What you choose to take away from those experiences is up to you. You have one life, one attempt. So, why not make it as enjoyable as possible?

(No longer quoting)
Nihilism is not the search for truth, but rather, the realization and acceptance of that truth, that what we do is not relevant in the long term, but that does not mean that it is meaningless. The good life is the one you live, no more, no less.

So you exist to stimulate yourself.

Compelling.

Salus Maior wrote:

Kowani wrote:I will quote my response to a TG asking me about my nihilism.
I suppose the thing is that I don’t see nihilism as opposed to optimism. Yeah, on the cosmic scale, nothing we do matters. We die, our descendants’ll die, the sun’ll die, and the universe will eventually become uninhabitable. But we don’t experience things on the cosmic scale, we experience them on the lifetime scale. Our experiences, because of the fact that we can experience them, have inherent value to us. Life is not inherently suffering and pain, it is just life. What you choose to take away from those experiences is up to you. You have one life, one attempt. So, why not make it as enjoyable as possible?

(No longer quoting)
Nihilism is not the search for truth, but rather, the realization and acceptance of that truth, that what we do is not relevant in the long term, but that does not mean that it is meaningless. The good life is the one you live, no more, no less.

So you exist to stimulate yourself.

Compelling.

…No? The reason for my existence is simple, my parents. There is no greater purpose, one merely is.

Kowani wrote:…No? The reason for my existence is simple, my parents. There is no greater purpose, one merely is.

Don't be needlessly obtuse, you're not making yourself sound any more intelligent.

Salus Maior wrote:

Kowani wrote:…No? The reason for my existence is simple, my parents. There is no greater purpose, one merely is.

Don't be needlessly obtuse, you're not making yourself sound any more intelligent.

That’s nice.

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:He was imprisoned during the Holocaust. It's literally impossible for him to have been involved in it or known much about it.

TIL'd Mein Kampf, the Stab-In-The-Back myth, the years of growing repression against Germany's own Jewish and other minority populations, Aktion T4, Kritallnacht, the Nuremberg Laws, the expulsion and emigration of thousands of Jews, the ghettos, the concentration camps and forced labor camps, and the various Pogroms that ALL happened before Hess's actual imprisonment were all things he literally had no knowledge of nor involvement in, in any capacity whatsoever.

10/10.

He had already been sidelined. Ffs. And he wasn't a member of the Totenkonfverbände, the portion of the SS that had actually been involved directly in the concentration camps. Also, I'm fairly certain that Mein Kampf, while vile, doesn't list Hitler's plan to systematically exterminate Europe's Jewish population. But all of this is irrelevant since, again, he was imprisoned throughout the Holocaust. And, again, I'm not saying he was 100% innocent. I'm just saying what happened to him was bullshit.

Also, you're just listing various shit without actually explaining his involvement in any of it, so your argument is flawed in general.

See, you have difficulty with punishing people for what they actually did.

Nah, you just have difficulty grasping the simple concept that a devoted member of Hitler's inner circle would've been fully informed of the Nazi Party's plans and actions.

He'd been sidelined, fam. I'm sure he was before, but by the time the Enabling Act passed and the Nazi Party became more merged with the Government Hess's power and involvement decreased quite a bit. That was part of the reason he flew to Britain. He'd been sidelined but wanted to negotiate.

To prevent Germany from getting destroyed in a two-front war.

So that Germany could've accomplished Lebensraum with ease. You can stop your apologia for a member of Hitler's inner circle any time now.

So that they wouldn't get destroyed. Fam, his power and influence by this point was minimal. He had practically no involvement in Operation Barbarossa's planning and information.

Lmfao, like I said, get a grip.

Nova Cyberia wrote:He had already been sidelined. Ffs. And he wasn't a member of the Totenkonfverbände, the portion of the SS that had actually been involved directly in the concentration camps. Also, I'm fairly certain that Mein Kampf, while vile, doesn't list Hitler's plan to systematically exterminate Europe's Jewish population. But all of this is irrelevant since, again, he was imprisoned throughout the Holocaust. And, again, I'm not saying he was 100% innocent. I'm just saying what happened to him was bullshit.

Also, you're just listing various shit without actually explaining his involvement in any of it, so your argument is flawed in general.

"All legislation passed through his office for approval, except that concerning the army, the police and foreign policy, and he wrote and co-signed many of Hitler's decrees.[45] An organiser of the annual Nuremberg Rallies, he usually gave the opening speech and introduced Hitler. Hess also spoke over the radio and at rallies around the country, so frequently that the speeches were collected into book form in 1938.[46] Hess acted as Hitler's delegate in negotiations with industrialists and members of the wealthier classes.[47] As Hess had been born abroad, Hitler had him oversee the NSDAP groups such as the NSDAP/AO that were in charge of party members living in other countries.[48] Hitler instructed Hess to review all court decisions that related to persons deemed enemies of the Party. He was authorised to increase the sentences of anyone he felt got off too lightly in these cases, and was also empowered to take "merciless action" if he saw fit to do so. This often entailed sending the person to a concentration camp or simply ordering the person killed.[49] Hess was given the rank of Obergruppenführer in the Schutzstaffel (SS) in 1934, the second-highest SS rank.[50]"

"I'm GoNnA hAvE tO qUeStiOn HoW mUcH hE aCtUaLlY kNeW aBoUt ThiS!!1!"

Again, hun, you can stop your apologia for a Nazi from Hitler's inner circle any time now.

Torrocca wrote:

Nova Cyberia wrote:He had already been sidelined. Ffs. And he wasn't a member of the Totenkonfverbände, the portion of the SS that had actually been involved directly in the concentration camps. Also, I'm fairly certain that Mein Kampf, while vile, doesn't list Hitler's plan to systematically exterminate Europe's Jewish population. But all of this is irrelevant since, again, he was imprisoned throughout the Holocaust. And, again, I'm not saying he was 100% innocent. I'm just saying what happened to him was bullshit.

Also, you're just listing various shit without actually explaining his involvement in any of it, so your argument is flawed in general.

"All legislation passed through his office for approval, except that concerning the army, the police and foreign policy, and he wrote and co-signed many of Hitler's decrees.[45] An organiser of the annual Nuremberg Rallies, he usually gave the opening speech and introduced Hitler. Hess also spoke over the radio and at rallies around the country, so frequently that the speeches were collected into book form in 1938.[46] Hess acted as Hitler's delegate in negotiations with industrialists and members of the wealthier classes.[47] As Hess had been born abroad, Hitler had him oversee the NSDAP groups such as the NSDAP/AO that were in charge of party members living in other countries.[48] Hitler instructed Hess to review all court decisions that related to persons deemed enemies of the Party. He was authorised to increase the sentences of anyone he felt got off too lightly in these cases, and was also empowered to take "merciless action" if he saw fit to do so. This often entailed sending the person to a concentration camp or simply ordering the person killed.[49] Hess was given the rank of Obergruppenführer in the Schutzstaffel (SS) in 1934, the second-highest SS rank.[50]"

"I'm GoNnA hAvE tO qUeStiOn HoW mUcH hE aCtUaLlY kNeW aBoUt ThiS!!1!"

Again, hun, you can stop your apologia for a Nazi from Hitler's inner circle any time now.

All legislation passed through his office for approval, except that concerning the army, the police and foreign policy, and he wrote and co-signed many of Hitler's decrees.

Lol. Like I said, he had bo involvement with the Army or the planning and implementation of Operation Barbarossa. Also, the SS controlled the police. Himmler was Reichsführer and Chief of German Police and they were responsible for many of the anti-Semitic acts against Jews. Hess had no control over the police.

Again, I'm not saying Hess was totally innocent. I'm just saying what happened to him was ridiculous and what you're saying about him is bullshit. You just have a bad understanding of history.