Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Galloism]

Why aren't you or Amin patriots?

Because I despise the US government.

Uncle Sam is basically family. He always looks out for us and keeps our economy chugging.

You can’t hate Uncle Sam.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Same. Not being nationalist or patriotic is the one thing I agree with El-Amin on.

Why aren't you or Amin patriots?

Kubumba is a fifth columnist who hates the very concept of the United States.

[Bear Stearns]

Same. Not being nationalist or patriotic is the one thing I agree with El-Amin on.

Why aren't you or Amin patriots?

Nationalism: love of your people, heritage, culture, and when taken to the extreme can be racist or xenophobic

Patriotism: love of institutions such as the government, and when taken to the extreme results in being an imperialist statist neocon blood for oil warmonger

[Bear Stearns]

Because I despise the US government.

Uncle Sam is basically family. He always looks out for us and keeps our economy chugging.

You can’t hate Uncle Sam.

I've never quite figured out if Uncle Sam is supposed to represent the federal government or just be a personification of the American nation.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

I have a different understanding of nationalism and patriotism. To me, nationalism is closely related to national chauvinism, the idea that our nation or people are unequivocally superior whereas patriotism is just a quality of devotion and loyalty to your country.

[Bear Stearns]

I have a different understanding of nationalism and patriotism. To me, nationalism is closely related to national chauvinism, the idea that our nation or people are unequivocally superior whereas patriotism is just a quality of devotion and loyalty to your country.

Loyalty to your nation or country is not always the same as loyalty to your government.

[Galloism]

Uncle Sam is basically family. He always looks out for us and keeps our economy chugging.

You can’t hate Uncle Sam.

I've never quite figured out if Uncle Sam is supposed to represent the federal government or just be a personification of the American nation.

To me it’s always represented my friend and personal benefactor the federal government.

[Bear Stearns]

I've never quite figured out if Uncle Sam is supposed to represent the federal government or just be a personification of the American nation.

To me it’s always represented my friend and personal benefactor the federal government.

Then in that case, Uncle Sam's been a loser since 2001.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Why aren't you or Amin patriots?

Nationalism: love of your people, heritage, culture, and when taken to the extreme can be racist or xenophobic

Patriotism: love of institutions such as the government, and when taken to the extreme results in being an imperialist statist neocon blood for oil warmonger

I don't think those are the commonly accepted definitions. I thought nationalism was a desire to look out for your nation's interests at the expense of other nations. And patriotism was a strong identification with the values of your nation and a desire for what helps improve your nation.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Why aren't you or Amin patriots?

Nationalism: love of your people, heritage, culture, and when taken to the extreme can be racist or xenophobic

Patriotism: love of institutions such as the government, and when taken to the extreme results in being an imperialist statist neocon blood for oil warmonger

I don't think those are the commonly accepted definitions. I thought nationalism was a desire to look out for your nation's interests at the expense of other nations. And patriotism was a strong identification with the values of your nation and a desire for what helps improve your nation.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Why aren't you or Amin patriots?

Because I despise the US government.

Many people despise the US government, and yet are still patriots. You can love your country and yet hate its government. In Australia, holding an irreverent contempt for the government is considered a very Australian, and thereby, very patriotic thing to do.

[Kowani]

Well yes, that's usually the case with any secessionist movement. Whether or not you will be tried as a traitor depends on whether or not you win. Which is fundamentally a "might makes right" argument.

Fair. History written by the winners and all that.

Well. If that was true, people’d idolize the Mongol Empire. But they don’t.

[Galloism]

Because I despise the US government.

Many people despise the US government, and yet are still patriots. You can love your country and yet hate its government. In Australia, holding an irreverent contempt for the government is considered a very Australian, and thereby, very patriotic thing to do.

Incidentally, we used to be like that in the US no matter who was in charge, but now it’s more tribal. Criticism only if the other guy is in charge this week.

Fucking GW and all the bastards who kept chanting that criticism was unpatriotic.

[Camelone]

Fair. History written by the winners and all that.

Well. If that was true, people’d idolize the Mongol Empire. But they don’t.

They didn’t win the civilizational game only a transitory empire that did not last very long as a unified polity. History being written by the victors necessitates a victory on a civilizational level not just a battlefield level.

[Bear Stearns]

Many people despise the US government, and yet are still patriots. You can love your country and yet hate its government. In Australia, holding an irreverent contempt for the government is considered a very Australian, and thereby, very patriotic thing to do.

Incidentally, we used to be like that in the US no matter who was in charge, but now it’s more tribal. Criticism only if the other guy is in charge this week.

Fucking GW and all the bastards who kept chanting that criticism was unpatriotic.

[Nova Cyberia]

Many people despise the US government, and yet are still patriots. You can love your country and yet hate its government. In Australia, holding an irreverent contempt for the government is considered a very Australian, and thereby, very patriotic thing to do.

Incidentally, we used to be like that in the US no matter who was in charge, but now it’s more tribal. Criticism only if the other guy is in charge this week.

Fucking GW and all the bastards who kept chanting that criticism was unpatriotic.

I think it was more 9/11 that did that.

[Bear Stearns]

Nationalism: love of your people, heritage, culture, and when taken to the extreme can be racist or xenophobic

Patriotism: love of institutions such as the government, and when taken to the extreme results in being an imperialist statist neocon blood for oil warmonger

I don't think those are the commonly accepted definitions. I thought nationalism was a desire to look out for your nation's interests at the expense of other nations. And patriotism was a strong identification with the values of your nation and a desire for what helps improve your nation.

Nationalism technically means believing that your nation should have its own nation-state.

And you say patriotism supports the values of your nation? Well those are basically codified and manipulated by the government. So ergo, patriotism is really just supporting the institution.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Nationalism *also technically means believing that your nation should have its own nation-state.

Like almost any political term, it has a different definition depending on how you use it.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Many people despise the US government, and yet are still patriots. You can love your country and yet hate its government. In Australia, holding an irreverent contempt for the government is considered a very Australian, and thereby, very patriotic thing to do.

Incidentally, we used to be like that in the US no matter who was in charge, but now it’s more tribal. Criticism only if the other guy is in charge this week.

Fucking GW and all the bastards who kept chanting that criticism was unpatriotic.

I've noticed that as well. In America, Democrats hate the government when a Republican is in charge, but not so much when a Democrat is in charge, and vice versa for Republicans. In Australia, everyone hates the current PM, assuming they can even remember who they are.

[Kowani]

Well. If that was true, people’d idolize the Mongol Empire. But they don’t.

They didn’t win the civilizational game only a transitory empire that did not last very long as a unified polity. History being written by the victors necessitates a victory on a civilizational level not just a battlefield level.

Well. They did, but as 3 different kingdoms. Particularly, the Yuan Dynasty and the Ilkhanate being the 2 that actually mattered. Nobody gives a fuck about the Golden Horde.

[Bear Stearns]

Incidentally, we used to be like that in the US no matter who was in charge, but now it’s more tribal. Criticism only if the other guy is in charge this week.

Fucking GW and all the bastards who kept chanting that criticism was unpatriotic.

I've noticed that as well. In America, Democrats hate the government when a Republican is in charge, but not so much when a Democrat is in charge, and vice versa for Republicans. In Australia, everyone hates the current PM, assuming they can even remember who they are.

During the Bush years, Republican trust in the mainstream media was pretty high, while it was Democrats who were shouting "CNN CORPORATE SHILL$"

It's now flipped entirely, with Republicans having almost no faith in the media and the Democrat's faith in the media is at an all-time high.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

I've noticed that as well. In America, Democrats hate the government when a Republican is in charge, but not so much when a Democrat is in charge, and vice versa for Republicans. In Australia, everyone hates the current PM, assuming they can even remember who they are.

Looking at America, and back to Australia, there's a pretty strong argument that antipathy towards the government beats tribalism. Our politics are dysfunctional in their own special way, but it doesn't stop Australia from being a great country.

[Nova Cyberia]

Nationalism *also technically means believing that your nation should have its own nation-state.

Like almost any political term, it has a different definition depending on how you use it.

A nationalist is someone who's loyal to their country and places its interests above those of other countries.

[Bienenhalde]

Incidentally, we used to be like that in the US no matter who was in charge, but now it’s more tribal. Criticism only if the other guy is in charge this week.

Fucking GW and all the bastards who kept chanting that criticism was unpatriotic.

Yeah, I certainly do...he was a far better president than Trump.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I don't think those are the commonly accepted definitions. I thought nationalism was a desire to look out for your nation's interests at the expense of other nations. And patriotism was a strong identification with the values of your nation and a desire for what helps improve your nation.

Nationalism technically means believing that your nation should have its own nation-state.

And you say patriotism supports the values of your nation? Well those are basically codified and manipulated by the government. So ergo, patriotism is really just supporting the institution.

Yes, that's another definition of nationalism, but for a more specific context.

Not if you believe the government runs counter to those values, or if you believe that treating the government with suspicion is one of those values.