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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
115
26%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
52
12%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
43
10%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
147
33%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
18
4%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
68
15%
 
Total votes : 443

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Nea Byzantia
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:11 am

North German Realm wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:I would never support such restrictions, but I would regard restrictions that are not along lines of sex or race to not be inherently savage, just inherently undemocratic.
Eh. I might be neutral-positive about weighted franchise based only on education, but even then I realize that not giving everyone the equal voice in the process of decisionmaking should be unacceptable in a civilized society. (Didn't say if the activities themselves were savage. I mean, most -though not all- limitations on franchise are savagery, but exceptions apply)

Image

I guess Aristotle was "uncivilized", then...

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Hanafuridake
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Postby Hanafuridake » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:11 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I'm more in favor of a sort of hybrid system, similar to IRL imperial Germany or Morocco.

I broadly agree but with rather different eligibility criteria for suffrage.


No Catholics allowed? :p

As for me, I have no objections to universal suffrage. As all citizens as properly children of the Emperor, I can see arguments for why they should all be able to participate in government.
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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:12 am

North German Realm wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:I would never support such restrictions, but I would regard restrictions that are not along lines of sex or race to not be inherently savage, just inherently undemocratic.
Eh. I might be neutral-positive about weighted franchise based only on education, but even then I realize that not giving everyone the equal voice in the process of decisionmaking should be unacceptable in a civilized society. (Didn't say if the activities themselves were savage. I mean, most -though not all- limitations on franchise are savagery, but exceptions apply)

Making franchisement based on education is a great idea in concept, but in practice, it tends to become a tool used to disenfranchise minorities (see the voting tests in the Jim Crow South, for example). It could definitely work if there was one universal test, the answers were unambiguously right or wrong, and there was no way to cheat on it, but even the most well-made systems will have at best two of those things.
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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:12 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Eh. I might be neutral-positive about weighted franchise based only on education, but even then I realize that not giving everyone the equal voice in the process of decisionmaking should be unacceptable in a civilized society. (Didn't say if the activities themselves were savage. I mean, most -though not all- limitations on franchise are savagery, but exceptions apply)

Image

I guess Aristotle was "uncivilized", then...

I mean, he was. That's not really a secret. Nearly every human being until maybe 1907 was uncivilized at best and an open savage by my standards.
Last edited by North German Realm on Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:12 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:No doubt. Though I think it's more efficient if people are allowed to find their own role in society, rather than having it be determined by their sex. If women are predisposed towards nurturing roles, and men are predisposed towards more dangerous, assertive, competitive roles, then in a egalitarian society, they will naturally gravitate towards those roles. No social engineering necessary.

I don't quite understand. Which men do you think should be able to vote, if any? And which women do you think should be able to vote, if any?

Nea Byzantia wrote:Interesting. So a Monarchy which allows suffrage to "stake-holders" (ie. those who have served in the Military, etc.)?

Old Tyrannia wrote:I broadly agree but with rather different eligibility criteria for suffrage.

My politics are in a bit of flux, so I haven't quite fleshed out exactly what I think on the question. But I definitely prefer some kind of partial male suffrage.

What would you say to a woman who meets all the qualifications for your getting the vote? Be it military service, or property ownership or education or IQ or party membership, etc.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:13 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Ah, but one of the effects of the current model of capitalism is that the banksters and CEO's don't give a shit and built an economic system which forces women and men out of their natural roles(albeit particularly women). Moreover, I've actually worked construction. I don't recall any women there, unless they were an architect or designer or something. To a certain degree, people follow their natural inclinations anyways, even while a crooked economic system attempts to force them out of it.

So do you or do you not believe that your system needs enforcement for it to function? I kind of need to know before I can continue with this debate.

I believe that, once supporting economic measures have been undertaken, it will be just as self-sustaining as it was for the first ~4950 years of civilization. I do, however, recognize that it results in lower levels of short term economic growth, and that there will therefore always be those that seek short term growth at all costs and attempt to change the economy for that end, which must be guarded against.
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texan distributist and paleoconservative.
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Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:13 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Eh. I might be neutral-positive about weighted franchise based only on education, but even then I realize that not giving everyone the equal voice in the process of decisionmaking should be unacceptable in a civilized society. (Didn't say if the activities themselves were savage. I mean, most -though not all- limitations on franchise are savagery, but exceptions apply)

Image

I guess Aristotle was "uncivilized", then...

The guy thought women were stupid because they had fewer teeth than men, so I take his advice with an entire mine's worth of salt.
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Diopolis
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Founded: May 15, 2012
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:17 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Diopolis wrote:

My politics are in a bit of flux, so I haven't quite fleshed out exactly what I think on the question. But I definitely prefer some kind of partial male suffrage.

What would you say to a woman who meets all the qualifications for your getting the vote? Be it military service, or property ownership or education or IQ or party membership, etc.

Women should not be in the military and should be police only as auxiliaries. I'm not sure my ideal party would have women as full members either.
I do believe that widows of a voting man should be able to keep his vote, assuming that the conditions for voting are still met, and that they were married for at least a certain amount of time(no late-in-life trophy wives inheriting their husband's votes).
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texan distributist and paleoconservative.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:19 am

Musonius Rufus wrote:Once when the question arose as to whether or not sons and daughters ought to be given the same education, he remarked that trainers of horses and dogs make no distinction in the training of the male and the female; for female dogs are taught to hunt just as the males are, and one can see no difference in the training of mares, if they are expected to do a horse's work, and the training of stallions. In the case of man, however, it would seem to be felt necessary to employ some special and exceptional training and education for males over females, as if it were not essential that the same virtues should be present in both alike, in man and woman, or as if it were possible to arrive at the same virtues, not through the same, but through different instruction.

2 And yet that there is not one set of virtues for a man and another for a woman is easy to perceive. In the first place, a man must have understanding and so must a woman, or what pray would be the use of a foolish man or woman? Then it is essential for one no less than the other to live justly, since the man who is not just would not be a good citizen, and the woman would not manage her household well if she did not do it justly; but if she is unjust she will wrong her husband like Eriphyle in the story.[1] Again, it is recognized as right for a woman in wedlock to be chaste, and so is it likewise for a man; the law, at all events, decrees the same punishment for committing adultery as for being taken in adultery. Gluttony, drunkenness, and other related vices, which are vices of excess and bring disgrace upon those guilty of them, show that self-control is most necessary for every human being, male and female alike; for the only way of escape from wantonness is through self-control; there is no other.

3 Perhaps someone may say that courage is a virtue appropriate to men only. That is not so.[2] For a woman too of the right sort must have courage and be wholly free of cowardice, so that she will neither be swayed by hardships nor by fear; otherwise, how will she be said to have self-control, if by threat or force she can be constrained to yield to shame? Nay more, it is necessary for women to be able to repel attack, unless indeed they are willing to appear more cowardly than hens and other female birds which fight with creatures much larger than themselves to defend their young. How then should women not need courage? That women have some prowess in arms the race of the Amazons demonstrated when they defeated many tribes in war.[3] If, therefore, something of this courage is lacking in other women, it is due to lack of use and practice rather than because they were not endowed with it.

4 If then men and women are born with the same virtues, the same type of training and education must, of necessity, befit both men and women. For with every animal and plant whatsoever, proper care must be bestowed upon it to produce the excellence appropriate to it. Is it not true that, if it were necessary under like circumstances for a man and a woman to be able to play the flute, and if, furthermore, both had to do so in order to earn a living, we should give them both exactly the same thorough training in flute playing; and similarly if it were necessary for either to play the harp? Well then, if it is necessary for both to be proficient in the virtue which is appropriate to a human being, that is for both to be able to have understanding, and self-control, and courage, and justice, the one no less than the other, shall we not teach them both alike the art by which a human being becomes good? Yes, certainly we must do that and nothing else.


>> when first century Romans are more civilized than some modern folk

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:20 am

Diopolis wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:So do you or do you not believe that your system needs enforcement for it to function? I kind of need to know before I can continue with this debate.

I believe that, once supporting economic measures have been undertaken, it will be just as self-sustaining as it was for the first ~4950 years of civilization. I do, however, recognize that it results in lower levels of short term economic growth, and that there will therefore always be those that seek short term growth at all costs and attempt to change the economy for that end, which must be guarded against.

First, the "self-sustaining system" you're describing was codified under law and it did actually require enforcement, the changes that brought about women's rights were the result of the patriarchal social hierarchy no longer being enforced. The only reason that it looks like it was self-sustaining is because the same protocols were in place across most of the world for most of human history, and most women didn't try to resist it because most of them they didn't have any power to change the system and the ones that did preferred to keep it for themselves and eliminate half the future competition.
Second, I'm curious where you got the idea that preventing 50% of the population from contributing to the economy in any significant way is good for long term growth.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:21 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:What would you say to a woman who meets all the qualifications for your getting the vote? Be it military service, or property ownership or education or IQ or party membership, etc.

Women should not be in the military and should be police only as auxiliaries. I'm not sure my ideal party would have women as full members either.
I do believe that widows of a voting man should be able to keep his vote, assuming that the conditions for voting are still met, and that they were married for at least a certain amount of time(no late-in-life trophy wives inheriting their husband's votes).

So do you think there should only be one vote per family unit? If so, why only give the vote to the man of the family? Why not make it so both parents have to agree on who to vote for?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Old Tyrannia
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Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:22 am

Diopolis wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:I broadly agree but with rather different eligibility criteria for suffrage.

My politics are in a bit of flux, so I haven't quite fleshed out exactly what I think on the question. But I definitely prefer some kind of partial male suffrage.

To quote Lord Salisbury, "when I am told that my ploughmen are capable citizens, it seems to me ridiculous to say that educated women are not just as capable. A good deal of the political battle of the future will be a conflict between religion and unbelief: & the women will in that controversy be on the right side." Salisbury is undoubtedly my favourite prime minister; his writings on conservatism express just about the ideal distillation of constitutional conservatism, personal liberty and economic pragmatism, and he's a gold mine for excellent quotations.
Hanafuridake wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:I broadly agree but with rather different eligibility criteria for suffrage.


No Catholics allowed? :p

No, holding office in England should be conditional on taking communion in the Church of England, but it is only just that anyone living in a country and subject to the decisions of its government should have some degree of representation. Prior statements of mine to the contrary were made in a spirit of spite against certain followers of other religions whose attitudes wore out my patience, and I regret them in retrospect.

Personally, I'd say that the vote should be restricted to British subjects aged 21 or older who have been resident in the country for at least six months in the prior year.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:22 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Women should not be in the military and should be police only as auxiliaries. I'm not sure my ideal party would have women as full members either.
I do believe that widows of a voting man should be able to keep his vote, assuming that the conditions for voting are still met, and that they were married for at least a certain amount of time(no late-in-life trophy wives inheriting their husband's votes).

So do you think there should only be one vote per family unit? If so, why only give the vote to the man of the family? Why not make it so both parents have to agree on who to vote for?

Because the man ought to be head of household.
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Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
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Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:23 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:What would you say to a woman who meets all the qualifications for your getting the vote? Be it military service, or property ownership or education or IQ or party membership, etc.

Women should not be in the military and should be police only as auxiliaries. I'm not sure my ideal party would have women as full members either.
I do believe that widows of a voting man should be able to keep his vote, assuming that the conditions for voting are still met, and that they were married for at least a certain amount of time(no late-in-life trophy wives inheriting their husband's votes).

Also, what happens when a woman passes all the mental and physical tests and qualifications required to get into the military?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:24 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:So do you think there should only be one vote per family unit? If so, why only give the vote to the man of the family? Why not make it so both parents have to agree on who to vote for?

Because the man ought to be head of household.

Why not both parents equally? What happens in same sex families?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Old Tyrannia
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Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:25 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Because the man ought to be head of household.

Why not both parents equally? What happens in same sex families?

You really think there would be same sex families in Dio's National Catholic police state?
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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Posts: 3218
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:26 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:So do you think there should only be one vote per family unit? If so, why only give the vote to the man of the family? Why not make it so both parents have to agree on who to vote for?

Because the man ought to be head of household.

Why so?
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Diopolis
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:27 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Women should not be in the military and should be police only as auxiliaries. I'm not sure my ideal party would have women as full members either.
I do believe that widows of a voting man should be able to keep his vote, assuming that the conditions for voting are still met, and that they were married for at least a certain amount of time(no late-in-life trophy wives inheriting their husband's votes).

Also, what happens when a woman passes all the mental and physical tests and qualifications required to get into the military?

Golf clapping?
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Because the man ought to be head of household.

Why not both parents equally? What happens in same sex families?

Because you can't have a democracy with two people, and same sex marriage shouldn't be a thing.
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texan distributist and paleoconservative.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:27 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Why not both parents equally? What happens in same sex families?

You really think there would be same sex families in Dio's National Catholic police state?

I had to ask. Also, who said anything about a police state.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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Diopolis
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Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:28 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Why not both parents equally? What happens in same sex families?

You really think there would be same sex families in Dio's National Catholic police state?

St. Francisco Franco would not approve, to be sure.
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texan distributist and paleoconservative.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Evil Dictators Happyland
Minister
 
Posts: 3218
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:29 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Why not both parents equally? What happens in same sex families?

Because you can't have a democracy with two people, and same sex marriage shouldn't be a thing.

Why not, and why not, respectively.
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Hanafuridake
Senator
 
Posts: 3712
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:30 am

Time traveling Heian princess trapped in the 21st century
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Diopolis
Postmaster-General
 
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Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:33 am


What did I just watch?
Trad-Catholic, hispanophile Texan distributist and paleoconservative.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 41683
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:34 am

Diopolis wrote:

What did I just watch?


Something amazing.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7788
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:48 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Also, what happens when a woman passes all the mental and physical tests and qualifications required to get into the military?

Golf clapping?
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Why not both parents equally? What happens in same sex families?

Because you can't have a democracy with two people, and same sex marriage shouldn't be a thing.

Why shouldn't a woman who's more qualified than the average cadet be able to join the military?

Then why not have two votes per household?

What would you say to a stable loving homosexual couple of two men equally qualified to vote? Which one of them gets the vote?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

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