NATION

PASSWORD

Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
115
26%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
52
12%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
43
10%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
147
33%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
18
4%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
68
15%
 
Total votes : 443

User avatar
Nea Byzantia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5185
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:44 am

Diopolis wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Given your serious, no-nonsense, temperament, that would probably suit you well.

Once people hear me talk and realize I don't have a german accent, I usually get mistaken for former military. I suspect being into guns and having good posture just tends to have that effect, whether you have an overly serious temperament or not.

Lol...How long does it take them to realize you're not a Jerry?
Last edited by Nea Byzantia on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8239
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:44 am

Diopolis wrote:I'm not totally opposed to the idea of national service for women

Oh, well I am. For men too.
society ought to encourage women to be true to their natures.

I agree, except I think people ought to be true to the nature of themselves as an individual (except for the harmful or toxic aspects of their nature), rather than true to the average tendencies of their sex or gender.
Diopolis wrote:I'm opposed to universal suffrage.

Yes, but are you opposed to women voting, but supportive of men voting? Or are you opposed to the general population voting? If the latter, it's not really a threat to legal gender equality.
Last edited by The Xenopolis Confederation on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3515
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:45 am

North German Realm wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Wow, I'm really glad sexism is back in style. Here I thought maybe that we had moved past seeing women as incubators and servants.

Suggesting we as a collective ever did move past that view.

We must be living in entirely different collectives, then, because sexism is dying out. Beliefs that were commonplace in even relatively egalitarian civilized nations 200 years ago are seen as backward and wrong today.
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

User avatar
Diopolis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16797
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:48 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Men and women are different. Thus they have different rights and ought to have different privileges and social roles. Attempting to erase their differences is foolish and counterproductive; a civilized and sane society encourages its children to become manly men and womanly women.

If you believe that people have certain natural roles and places within your social order, then having to enforce that social order proves that it is in fact (to at least some degree, anyway) an artificial construct. Otherwise, given freedom to choose, people will gravitate towards those tasks on their own, and there is no need to enforce it. (This is different from other forms of law enforcement because most other crimes, such as murder and theft, are crimes because they are unquestionably harmful in virtually every circumstance. Taking advantage of your economic freedoms to find the most efficient place in the economy isn't a crime in most countries, and the ones where it is a crime aren't known for having happy populations or productive economies.)
Forcing a woman to become a caregiver when her skills and interests lean more towards construction, and then forcing a man into the construction job she would have filled when his skills and interests lean more towards childcare, isn't just deeply unfair, it's also very inefficient, since neither of them will perform their assigned tasks as well as the other would have.

Ah, but one of the effects of the current model of capitalism is that the banksters and CEO's don't give a shit and built an economic system which forces women and men out of their natural roles(albeit particularly women). Moreover, I've actually worked construction. I don't recall any women there, unless they were an architect or designer or something. To a certain degree, people follow their natural inclinations anyways, even while a crooked economic system attempts to force them out of it.
Proudly anti-mask, moderately anti-vax.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.

User avatar
Diopolis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16797
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:49 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Once people hear me talk and realize I don't have a german accent, I usually get mistaken for former military. I suspect being into guns and having good posture just tends to have that effect, whether you have an overly serious temperament or not.

Lol...How long does it take them to realize you're not a Jerry?

I have a very strong Texas accent, so usually not that long.
I now have a mental image of Hitler going "Howdy y'all".
Proudly anti-mask, moderately anti-vax.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:50 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:By "Civilized" do you mean Progressive?

No, I mean civilized. I have an evangelical mother and plenty of rural family who vote Republican religiously. But because they aren't savages, they aren't sexists.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
North German Realm
Senator
 
Posts: 4487
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby North German Realm » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:51 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Suggesting we as a collective ever did move past that view.

We must be living in entirely different collectives, then, because sexism is dying out. Beliefs that were commonplace in even relatively egalitarian civilized nations 200 years ago are seen as backward and wrong today.

"As a Collective", Georgia literally passed a law that's akin to the description of a novel about a dystopian Christian theocracy, and half a doxen states nearby showed their support by pushing through similar laws. Entire regions in the world have honor killing and arranged marriages (often to ages as low as 8 and 11). Sexism hasn't gone anywhere, we -the actually civilized folk- just made echo chambers and pretended what we wish is true and we're the majority view.

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:In civilized sections of society, yes.

By "Civilized" do you mean Progressive?

But you repeat yourself.
Last edited by North German Realm on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------
-----------------
-----------------
North German Confederation
NationStates Flag Bracket II - 6th place!

Norddeutscher Bund
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Military | Legislature || The World
26 Sep, 2020
Die Morgenpost: SMS Kaiser Heinrich, North German component of the multinational Blockade on the Bohai Sea, attacked by Chinese naval forces, increasing tensions between China and the Civilized World. | Reichskanzler Lagenmauer condemns Russian army opening fire on protestors in Russian Bukhara. |  Anglo-American Border along the St. Lawrence River to demilitarize after successful negotiations between two countries. | Hungarian National Chief Victor protests recent condemnation of his government's treatment of the Hungarian Serb minority, "Are nations not sovereign in how they deal with vermin?"

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3515
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:52 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:In civilized sections of society, yes.

By "Civilized" do you mean Progressive?

The two tend to go hand in hand, but for the purposes of this debate, I'm considering a "civilized" nation to be one on the list of advanced economies.
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

User avatar
Nea Byzantia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5185
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:52 am

Diopolis wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Lol...How long does it take them to realize you're not a Jerry?

I have a very strong Texas accent, so usually not that long.
I now have a mental image of Hitler going "Howdy y'all".

I mean Hitler was a fan of Westerns and had a proclivity for cocaine, so...

User avatar
Diopolis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16797
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:53 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I'm not totally opposed to the idea of national service for women

Oh, well I am. For men too.
society ought to encourage women to be true to their natures.

I agree, except I think people ought to be true to the nature of themselves as an individual (except for the harmful or toxic aspects of their nature), rather than true to the average tendencies of their sex or gender.

The differences between us in both of these two points are pretty simple- I am a collectivist, you are an individualist.
Diopolis wrote:I'm opposed to universal suffrage.

Yes, but are you opposed to women voting, but supportive of men voting? Or are you opposed to the general population voting? If the latter, it's not really a threat to legal gender equality.

I am opposed to women's suffrage on general principle, except perhaps in limited circumstances for widows. As for men's suffrage, I'm not a pro-universal suffrage sort, but I'm not universally against suffrage. Maybe some combination of household voting and a requirement for national service?
Proudly anti-mask, moderately anti-vax.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3515
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:55 am

Diopolis wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:If you believe that people have certain natural roles and places within your social order, then having to enforce that social order proves that it is in fact (to at least some degree, anyway) an artificial construct. Otherwise, given freedom to choose, people will gravitate towards those tasks on their own, and there is no need to enforce it. (This is different from other forms of law enforcement because most other crimes, such as murder and theft, are crimes because they are unquestionably harmful in virtually every circumstance. Taking advantage of your economic freedoms to find the most efficient place in the economy isn't a crime in most countries, and the ones where it is a crime aren't known for having happy populations or productive economies.)
Forcing a woman to become a caregiver when her skills and interests lean more towards construction, and then forcing a man into the construction job she would have filled when his skills and interests lean more towards childcare, isn't just deeply unfair, it's also very inefficient, since neither of them will perform their assigned tasks as well as the other would have.

Ah, but one of the effects of the current model of capitalism is that the banksters and CEO's don't give a shit and built an economic system which forces women and men out of their natural roles(albeit particularly women). Moreover, I've actually worked construction. I don't recall any women there, unless they were an architect or designer or something. To a certain degree, people follow their natural inclinations anyways, even while a crooked economic system attempts to force them out of it.

So do you or do you not believe that your system needs enforcement for it to function? I kind of need to know before I can continue with this debate.
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

User avatar
Nea Byzantia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5185
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:55 am

Diopolis wrote: I'm not a pro-universal suffrage sort, but I'm not universally against suffrage. Maybe some combination of household voting and a requirement for national service?

That's pretty reasonable. I lean more towards Autocracy and Monarchy, personally, but if I was to favour suffrage, it would be under the conditions you mentioned above.

User avatar
Hanafuridake
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5529
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:56 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Did it ever go out of style?

In civilized sections of society, yes.


You give society too much credit.
Nation name in proper language: 花降岳
Mahayana Buddhist
Fan of royalism and distributism

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3515
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:56 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I have a very strong Texas accent, so usually not that long.
I now have a mental image of Hitler going "Howdy y'all".

I mean Hitler was a fan of Westerns and had a proclivity for cocaine, so...

I'll have you know that in Texas, we use meth, not cocaine.
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

User avatar
Nea Byzantia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5185
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:57 am

Hanafuridake wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:In civilized sections of society, yes.


You give society too much credit.

One can expect nothing less from a Jacobin.

User avatar
Diopolis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16797
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:57 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Diopolis wrote: I'm not a pro-universal suffrage sort, but I'm not universally against suffrage. Maybe some combination of household voting and a requirement for national service?

That's pretty reasonable. I lean more towards Autocracy and Monarchy, personally, but if I was to favour suffrage, it would be under the conditions you mentioned above.

I'm more in favor of a sort of hybrid system, similar to IRL imperial Germany or Morocco.
Proudly anti-mask, moderately anti-vax.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.

User avatar
Evil Dictators Happyland
Senator
 
Posts: 3515
Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:00 am

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
You give society too much credit.

One can expect nothing less from a Jacobin.

...Did I just see someone unironically use "jacobin" as an insult?
Killer Queen has already touched this signature.

Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8239
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:00 am

Diopolis wrote:The differences between us in both of these two points are pretty simple- I am a collectivist, you are an individualist.

No doubt. Though I think it's more efficient if people are allowed to find their own role in society, rather than having it be determined by their sex. If women are predisposed towards nurturing roles, and men are predisposed towards more dangerous, assertive, competitive roles, then in a egalitarian society, they will naturally gravitate towards those roles. No social engineering necessary.
I am opposed to women's suffrage on general principle, except perhaps in limited circumstances for widows. As for men's suffrage, I'm not a pro-universal suffrage sort, but I'm not universally against suffrage. Maybe some combination of household voting and a requirement for national service?

I don't quite understand. Which men do you think should be able to vote, if any? And which women do you think should be able to vote, if any?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm a 19 year old Australian. Liberalism with a dash of lolbert. I don't do as much research as I should.

I'm a MTF transgender person, so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Nea Byzantia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5185
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:01 am

Diopolis wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:That's pretty reasonable. I lean more towards Autocracy and Monarchy, personally, but if I was to favour suffrage, it would be under the conditions you mentioned above.

I'm more in favor of a sort of hybrid system, similar to IRL imperial Germany or Morocco.

Interesting. So a Monarchy which allows suffrage to "stake-holders" (ie. those who have served in the Military, etc.)?

User avatar
Old Tyrannia
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 15372
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:01 am

Diopolis wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:That's pretty reasonable. I lean more towards Autocracy and Monarchy, personally, but if I was to favour suffrage, it would be under the conditions you mentioned above.

I'm more in favor of a sort of hybrid system, similar to IRL imperial Germany or Morocco.

I broadly agree but with rather different eligibility criteria for suffrage.
Ascended to Modhood on the 14th September 2016
The Grand Fascist Empire of Old Tyrannia
⚜ IMPERIVM MAGNVM FASCISTICVM TYRANNIAE ANTIQVAE
Factbook | Tyrannian Empire | Tyrannian Fascism
Everything for Queen and Country.

User avatar
Nea Byzantia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5185
Founded: Jun 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Nea Byzantia » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:01 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:One can expect nothing less from a Jacobin.

...Did I just see someone unironically use "jacobin" as an insult?

You did.

User avatar
North German Realm
Senator
 
Posts: 4487
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby North German Realm » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:02 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:One can expect nothing less from a Jacobin.

...Did I just see someone unironically use "jacobin" as an insult?

You're new here, it appears.


In all seriousness though, anything less than absolute, equal, and universal franchise for males and females (and "others", as they my appear) is unacceptable in a civilized society.
-----------------
-----------------
-----------------
North German Confederation
NationStates Flag Bracket II - 6th place!

Norddeutscher Bund
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Military | Legislature || The World
26 Sep, 2020
Die Morgenpost: SMS Kaiser Heinrich, North German component of the multinational Blockade on the Bohai Sea, attacked by Chinese naval forces, increasing tensions between China and the Civilized World. | Reichskanzler Lagenmauer condemns Russian army opening fire on protestors in Russian Bukhara. |  Anglo-American Border along the St. Lawrence River to demilitarize after successful negotiations between two countries. | Hungarian National Chief Victor protests recent condemnation of his government's treatment of the Hungarian Serb minority, "Are nations not sovereign in how they deal with vermin?"

User avatar
Diopolis
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16797
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:03 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Diopolis wrote:The differences between us in both of these two points are pretty simple- I am a collectivist, you are an individualist.

No doubt. Though I think it's more efficient if people are allowed to find their own role in society, rather than having it be determined by their sex. If women are predisposed towards nurturing roles, and men are predisposed towards more dangerous, assertive, competitive roles, then in a egalitarian society, they will naturally gravitate towards those roles. No social engineering necessary.
I am opposed to women's suffrage on general principle, except perhaps in limited circumstances for widows. As for men's suffrage, I'm not a pro-universal suffrage sort, but I'm not universally against suffrage. Maybe some combination of household voting and a requirement for national service?

I don't quite understand. Which men do you think should be able to vote, if any? And which women do you think should be able to vote, if any?

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I'm more in favor of a sort of hybrid system, similar to IRL imperial Germany or Morocco.

Interesting. So a Monarchy which allows suffrage to "stake-holders" (ie. those who have served in the Military, etc.)?

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Diopolis wrote:I'm more in favor of a sort of hybrid system, similar to IRL imperial Germany or Morocco.

I broadly agree but with rather different eligibility criteria for suffrage.

My politics are in a bit of flux, so I haven't quite fleshed out exactly what I think on the question. But I definitely prefer some kind of partial male suffrage.
Last edited by Diopolis on Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Proudly anti-mask, moderately anti-vax.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:04 am

North German Realm wrote:You're new here, it appears.


In all seriousness though, anything less than absolute, equal, and universal franchise for males and females (and "others", as they my appear) is unacceptable in a civilized society.

I would never support such restrictions, but I would regard restrictions that are not along lines of sex or race to not be inherently savage, just inherently undemocratic.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

User avatar
North German Realm
Senator
 
Posts: 4487
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby North German Realm » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:07 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
North German Realm wrote:You're new here, it appears.


In all seriousness though, anything less than absolute, equal, and universal franchise for males and females (and "others", as they my appear) is unacceptable in a civilized society.

I would never support such restrictions, but I would regard restrictions that are not along lines of sex or race to not be inherently savage, just inherently undemocratic.
Eh. I might be neutral-positive about weighted franchise based only on education, but even then I realize that not giving everyone the equal voice in the process of decisionmaking should be unacceptable in a civilized society. (Didn't say if the activities themselves were savage. I mean, most -though not all- limitations on franchise are savagery, but exceptions apply)
-----------------
-----------------
-----------------
North German Confederation
NationStates Flag Bracket II - 6th place!

Norddeutscher Bund
Homepage || Overview | Sovereign | Chancellor | Military | Legislature || The World
26 Sep, 2020
Die Morgenpost: SMS Kaiser Heinrich, North German component of the multinational Blockade on the Bohai Sea, attacked by Chinese naval forces, increasing tensions between China and the Civilized World. | Reichskanzler Lagenmauer condemns Russian army opening fire on protestors in Russian Bukhara. |  Anglo-American Border along the St. Lawrence River to demilitarize after successful negotiations between two countries. | Hungarian National Chief Victor protests recent condemnation of his government's treatment of the Hungarian Serb minority, "Are nations not sovereign in how they deal with vermin?"

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Bombadil, Cekoviu, Dresderstan, Eahland, Ethel mermania, Google [Bot], Grinning Dragon, Heloin, Kohr, Malnym, Necroghastia, Ngelmish, Novus America, Shazbotdom, Stellar Colonies

Advertisement

Remove ads