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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
115
26%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
52
12%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
43
10%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
147
33%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
18
4%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
68
15%
 
Total votes : 443

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15593
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:49 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
It should also be noted that the Crusaders were excommunicated at the time.

They were quickly received back when the Pope realized they were successful.


That's not my understanding of it. As I understand it, the Pope was one of the Latin critics of the 4th Crusade, and regardless it was illicit.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15049
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:52 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Jolthig wrote:So that this hypothetical state protects you and let's you practice your faith?

I'm saying so because you said it doesn't matter how Jizya is enforced.


My position is that no Islamic state should exist, period.

Then, I am the opposite of you. Because I believe Islamic states should be established through persuasion and democracy once the majority of the populace choose to become Muslim. Preferably the Ahmadiyya community, and the closest nation that may do that is the Gambia.
Ahmadi Muslim • Khaddam of Ahmadiyya • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan • Pragmatic on politics
Retiring from NS, guys.

Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:54 pm

Jolthig wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Excellent, then it won't force me to pay the Jizya.

How exactly does Jizya force you to renounce your faith?

It encourages me to do so and coerces me to do so by charging me for doing so.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:56 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:They were quickly received back when the Pope realized they were successful.


That's not my understanding of it. As I understand it, the Pope was one of the Latin critics of the 4th Crusade, and regardless it was illicit.

If the Pope was such a critic of it, why did he have patriarchs of Constantinople consecrated for the Latin empire?
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15593
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:59 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
That's not my understanding of it. As I understand it, the Pope was one of the Latin critics of the 4th Crusade, and regardless it was illicit.

If the Pope was such a critic of it, why did he have patriarchs of Constantinople consecrated for the Latin empire?


I don't know, I haven't looked into it.

But I have a feeling you haven't exactly done a comprehensive read on it either, and are just trying to be contra-Catholic.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15049
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:00 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Jolthig wrote:How exactly does Jizya force you to renounce your faith?

It encourages me to do so and coerces me to do so by charging me for doing so.

Firstly, no one is going to force you to pay or renounce your faith, and as with any other tax, if you refuse to pay, then the authorities will be sent after you. That's like if I somehow refused to pay taxes to the US government, I'd get in trouble if I did so.
Ahmadi Muslim • Khaddam of Ahmadiyya • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan • Pragmatic on politics
Retiring from NS, guys.

Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:00 pm

Jolthig wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It encourages me to do so and coerces me to do so by charging me for doing so.

Firstly, no one is going to force you to pay or renounce your faith, and as with any other tax, if you refuse to pay, then the authorities will be sent after you. That's like if I somehow refused to pay taxes to the US government, I'd get in trouble if I did so.

You have a strange idea of "not forcing me to pay or renounce my faith."
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Turbofolkia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 357
Founded: May 05, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Turbofolkia » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:03 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Hence why I said "it depends on how you use it".


How about not at all.

No state implements the jizya today and I don't think it's been implemented by any state since it was abolished by the Ottomans in the 19th Century. Jews in Europe (at least the ones that weren't expelled) were forced to pay taxes for being Jews, so it's not like the jizya was anything extraordinary or extreme for its time.
Last edited by Turbofolkia on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15049
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:04 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Firstly, no one is going to force you to pay or renounce your faith, and as with any other tax, if you refuse to pay, then the authorities will be sent after you. That's like if I somehow refused to pay taxes to the US government, I'd get in trouble if I did so.

You have a strange idea of "not forcing me to pay or renounce my faith."

Because that's not what the Shariah advocates.
Ahmadi Muslim • Khaddam of Ahmadiyya • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan • Pragmatic on politics
Retiring from NS, guys.

Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:04 pm

Jolthig wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:You have a strange idea of "not forcing me to pay or renounce my faith."

Because that's not what the Shariah advocates.

But it does advocate that the authorities come after me?
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15593
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:04 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
My position is that no Islamic state should exist, period.

Then, I am the opposite of you. Because I believe Islamic states should be established through persuasion and democracy once the majority of the populace choose to become Muslim. Preferably the Ahmadiyya community, and the closest nation that may do that is the Gambia.


And you try to "persuade" people into accepting this by asking them "why not?" when they reject the practice of your religion's doctrine that would make them second class citizens?
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15049
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:05 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Because that's not what the Shariah advocates.

But it does advocate that the authorities come after me?

Yes, for tax evasion.
Ahmadi Muslim • Khaddam of Ahmadiyya • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan • Pragmatic on politics
Retiring from NS, guys.

Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:06 pm

Jolthig wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:But it does advocate that the authorities come after me?

Yes, for tax evasion.

So they'll force me to pay the tax.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Hanafuridake
Senator
 
Posts: 3680
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:06 pm

Jizya is an inherently exploitative tax built around the notion of non-Muslims as subjects and Muslims as rulers. No one who possesses self-respect would want to live under a system where they're second class citizens having to pay their masters from another religion for the privilege of not being killed for being unbelievers.
Time traveling Heian princess trapped in the 21st century
Buddhist Nationalist, Pan-Asianist, Neo-Confucian, Economic Collectivist

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Novus America
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Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:06 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
That's not my understanding of it. As I understand it, the Pope was one of the Latin critics of the 4th Crusade, and regardless it was illicit.

If the Pope was such a critic of it, why did he have patriarchs of Constantinople consecrated for the Latin empire?


“How, indeed, will the church of the Greeks, no matter how severely she is beset with afflictions and persecutions, return into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See, when she has seen in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs? As for those who were supposed to be seeking the ends of Jesus Christ, not their own ends, who made their swords, which they were supposed to use against the pagans, drip with Christian blood, they have spared neither religion, nor age, nor sex. They have committed incest, adultery, and fornication before the eyes of men. They have exposed both matrons and virgins, even those dedicated to God, to the sordid lusts of boys. Not satisfied with breaking open the imperial treasury and plundering the goods of princes and lesser men, they also laid their hands on the treasures of the churches and, what is more serious, on their very possessions. They have even ripped silver plates from the altars and have hacked them to pieces among themselves. They violated the holy places and have carried off crosses and relics.”

Pope Innocent III

Unfortunately yes he did take advantage of the aftermath.
Human nature though. To take advantage of things, even if you disagree with them.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:06 pm

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:If the Pope was such a critic of it, why did he have patriarchs of Constantinople consecrated for the Latin empire?


“How, indeed, will the church of the Greeks, no matter how severely she is beset with afflictions and persecutions, return into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See, when she has seen in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs? As for those who were supposed to be seeking the ends of Jesus Christ, not their own ends, who made their swords, which they were supposed to use against the pagans, drip with Christian blood, they have spared neither religion, nor age, nor sex. They have committed incest, adultery, and fornication before the eyes of men. They have exposed both matrons and virgins, even those dedicated to God, to the sordid lusts of boys. Not satisfied with breaking open the imperial treasury and plundering the goods of princes and lesser men, they also laid their hands on the treasures of the churches and, what is more serious, on their very possessions. They have even ripped silver plates from the altars and have hacked them to pieces among themselves. They violated the holy places and have carried off crosses and relics.”

Pope Innocent III

Unfortunately yes he did take advantage of the aftermath.
Human nature though. To take advantage of things, even if you disagree with them.

The Archregimancy wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:To be fair, the Pope did condemn the sacking of Constantinople and the perpetrators were punished.


I really didn't want to get drawn into another discussion of this tired topic, but that's more than a little disingenuous, Tarsonis.

Innocent III's attitude towards the Fourth Crusade was a model of inconsistency.

He excommunicated the entire Crusade after the notorious sack of Zara, but then quickly lifted the excommunications on all of the non-Venetians.

Following the sack of Constantinople, he initially condemned the Crusaders, and clearly he had significant misgivings about their actions, but then quickly accepted the new dispensation, accepted all gifts of looted goods given to him by the leaders of the Crusade, praised God for bringing the Empire under the control of Catholicism, and imposed a new Catholic hierarchy on those ecclesiastical seats under the control of the Latins. All of the senior perpetrators remained securely in control of their new political jurisdictions, their (second) excommunications rapidly lifted, with Doge Enrico Dandolo taking the title 'Lord of three-eighths of the Roman Empire'

Appreciating that we're talking about a very different sociopolitical context where Innocent likely saw the success of the Crusade as proof of God's approval (and his death in 1216 came before it was clear that the Latin Empire was a busted flush), those were hardly the actions of someone who was unequivocally opposed to the Crusade or its outcome.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15593
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:07 pm

Turbofolkia wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
How about not at all.

No state implements the jizya today and I don't think it's been implemented by any state since it was abolished by the Ottomans in the 19th Century. Jews in Europe (at least the ones that weren't expelled) were forced to pay taxes for being Jews, so it's not like the jizya was anything extraordinary or extreme for its time.


You realize that Jolthig and Amin are saying that there should be a modern worldwide Caliphate that executes Shariah law including the Jizya, right?

Nobody's calling out the Ottomans here.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15049
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:08 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Then, I am the opposite of you. Because I believe Islamic states should be established through persuasion and democracy once the majority of the populace choose to become Muslim. Preferably the Ahmadiyya community, and the closest nation that may do that is the Gambia.


And you try to "persuade" people into accepting this by asking them "why not?" when they reject the practice of your religion's doctrine that would make them second class citizens?

Or maybe because you are being incredibly stubborn and hostile to the point that I am wasting my time with you.

No one is going to be treated as second class citizens
Smh.
Ahmadi Muslim • Khaddam of Ahmadiyya • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan • Pragmatic on politics
Retiring from NS, guys.

Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15049
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:08 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Yes, for tax evasion.

So they'll force me to pay the tax.

Yes because you're under the state.
Ahmadi Muslim • Khaddam of Ahmadiyya • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan • Pragmatic on politics
Retiring from NS, guys.

Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:09 pm

Jolthig wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:So they'll force me to pay the tax.

Yes because you're under the state.

So they'll force me to pay the Jizya or convert.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Jolthig
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15049
Founded: Aug 31, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jolthig » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:10 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Yes because you're under the state.

So they'll force me to pay the Jizya or convert.

Nope. Prison for tax evasion.
Ahmadi Muslim • Khaddam of Ahmadiyya • theistic evolutionist • Star Wars fan • rock and metal fan • Pragmatic on politics
Retiring from NS, guys.

Grenartia wrote:Then we Marshall Plan it.

Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:15 pm

Jolthig wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:So they'll force me to pay the Jizya or convert.

Nope. Prison for tax evasion.

But you just said they'd force me to pay the tax.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:17 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
“How, indeed, will the church of the Greeks, no matter how severely she is beset with afflictions and persecutions, return into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See, when she has seen in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs? As for those who were supposed to be seeking the ends of Jesus Christ, not their own ends, who made their swords, which they were supposed to use against the pagans, drip with Christian blood, they have spared neither religion, nor age, nor sex. They have committed incest, adultery, and fornication before the eyes of men. They have exposed both matrons and virgins, even those dedicated to God, to the sordid lusts of boys. Not satisfied with breaking open the imperial treasury and plundering the goods of princes and lesser men, they also laid their hands on the treasures of the churches and, what is more serious, on their very possessions. They have even ripped silver plates from the altars and have hacked them to pieces among themselves. They violated the holy places and have carried off crosses and relics.”

Pope Innocent III

Unfortunately yes he did take advantage of the aftermath.
Human nature though. To take advantage of things, even if you disagree with them.

The Archregimancy wrote:
I really didn't want to get drawn into another discussion of this tired topic, but that's more than a little disingenuous, Tarsonis.

Innocent III's attitude towards the Fourth Crusade was a model of inconsistency.

He excommunicated the entire Crusade after the notorious sack of Zara, but then quickly lifted the excommunications on all of the non-Venetians.

Following the sack of Constantinople, he initially condemned the Crusaders, and clearly he had significant misgivings about their actions, but then quickly accepted the new dispensation, accepted all gifts of looted goods given to him by the leaders of the Crusade, praised God for bringing the Empire under the control of Catholicism, and imposed a new Catholic hierarchy on those ecclesiastical seats under the control of the Latins. All of the senior perpetrators remained securely in control of their new political jurisdictions, their (second) excommunications rapidly lifted, with Doge Enrico Dandolo taking the title 'Lord of three-eighths of the Roman Empire'

Appreciating that we're talking about a very different sociopolitical context where Innocent likely saw the success of the Crusade as proof of God's approval (and his death in 1216 came before it was clear that the Latin Empire was a busted flush), those were hardly the actions of someone who was unequivocally opposed to the Crusade or its outcome.


Which is what I said. He did not plan it to go the way it did, was disgusted by it yet still willing to take advantage of the aftermath.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15593
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:19 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
And you try to "persuade" people into accepting this by asking them "why not?" when they reject the practice of your religion's doctrine that would make them second class citizens?

Or maybe because you are being incredibly stubborn and hostile to the point that I am wasting my time with you.

No one is going to be treated as second class citizens
Smh.


Being forced to pay a tax for the fact I'm a Christian and not a Muslim in a Muslim State is not being treated as a second class citizen.

Perhaps in this moment I should give thanks. After all, if all Islamists are as dense as you and Amin there's no way that they'll ever win.

And yes, I am incredibly stubborn and hostile to the idea of being ruled by Muslims. Frankly, I would sooner die than be subject to your religion or the teachings thereof which are based in Imperialism and Warlordism and dares to masquerade as Eternal Truth. There is nothing you can possibly say that would make me think "Huh, maybe I should be good with the rule of a false religion over one based in my own religion's principles".

Hell, the fact that the likes of you and Amin continue to pursue domination over nations and other religions goes to show that what "Islamophobes" say is entirely valid, and that Islam in culture should be resisted and driven out.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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United Muscovite Nations
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Posts: 20763
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:19 pm

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:


Which is what I said. He did not plan it to go the way it did, was disgusted by it yet still willing to take advantage of the aftermath.

Yeah, the issue is that he allowed it.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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