Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Diopolis]

Animals don't care about anything except getting laid before they die. Which, IIRC, generally happens with fighting bulls and not meat animals.

So basically your "point" was pointless. Alright then.

To go to the ring is the bull's telos. It would be cruel to deny it without cause.

[The New California Republic]

So basically your "point" was pointless. Alright then.

To go to the ring is the bull's telos. It would be cruel to deny it without cause.

The bulls are bred for the purpose, so it is likely that they wouldn't even exist if bullfighting was outlawed; so the point is moot. And I doubt the bull really gives a shit about its purpose, or has any concept of it for that matter. And it's cruel to not give it a slow death?

Wow, there really is a hell of a lot wrong with what you just said...

[Kowani]

Gee, I dunno, why would murdering an animal for little more than entertainment and spectacle in the name of tradition be something to be ashamed of rather than venerated?

So I suppose you live a vegan lifestyle?
And more to the point, Kowani is from Catalonia, where bullfighting has been illegal since 2010 according to wikipedia.

I am originally from Granada, I moved at a young age. But even so, there is more to Spain than just Catalonia.

[Hanafuridake]

What is the RWDT's opinion on Spanish style bullfighting? Should it be banned? Celebrated? Are you indifferent?

Tbh at times I find it hard to condemn it, given our own treatment of most cattle in the West. Can we honestly condemn them for torture when our industrial scale harvesting of beef often does the same?

Nothing is more right-wing than risking one's life for an aesthetic ideal rooted in hundreds of years of history.

The bull has a better life than most cattle and actually has a chance of winning.

[Shanhwa]

A death in the ring is more honorable to the animal than by the guillotine in a factory farm.

...animals care about honor now...?

If they are not fat enough by the end of their farming season, they must commit honorable Bovinekku

[Torrocca]

Gee, I dunno, why would murdering an animal for little more than entertainment and spectacle in the name of tradition be something to be ashamed of rather than venerated?

So I suppose you live a vegan lifestyle?

Whether or not I or anyone live a vegan lifestyle is irrelevant to the torturous deaths caused to animals by shit like bullfighting or other forms of violent sport involving animals. I'm totally certain getting stabbed with multiple spears and then stabbed a bunch more with a sword and a dagger is morally equivalent to being killed as painlessly as possible in a slaughterhouse or by a hunter, though.

And more to the point, Kowani is from Catalonia, where bullfighting has been illegal since 2010 according to wikipedia.

Which doesn't mean Kowani can't find bullfighting shameful.

[Cappuccina]

What is the RWDT's opinion on Spanish style bullfighting? Should it be banned? Celebrated? Are you indifferent?

Tbh at times I find it hard to condemn it, given our own treatment of most cattle in the West. Can we honestly condemn them for torture when our industrial scale harvesting of beef often does the same?

Nothing is more right-wing than risking one's life for an aesthetic ideal rooted in hundreds of years of history.

The bull has a better life than most cattle and actually has a chance of winning.

^ This basically. The bull atleast had a pretty good chance of fucking the matador up. A beef cow can only await their death.

Also....we should at least be able to eat the bull after the match.....if they don't that's pretty wasteful.

[Rostavykhan]

...animals care about honor now...?

Animals don't care about anything except getting laid before they die. Which, IIRC, generally happens with fighting bulls and not meat animals.

The VIRGIN Livestock VS The CHAD Fighting Bull

Cows:
>Stuck in a field all their life
> Herded around by cowboys like pussies
> Killed en masse in giant plants with machines
> Run away from coyotes and wolves
> Considered tasty lumps of meat

Bulls:
> Fighting in the ring for huge crowds
> Getting laid
> Big horns
> Fucking up dudes in funny suits
> Runs valiantly towards Humans with swords like absolute mad lads
> Respected by their opponents and considered symbols of strength and honour

[Hanafuridake]

I have mixed feelings. While yeah like you said it does seem rather hypocritical for us to look down on the process while we have some really shitty industries doing shitty things to cattle I'm certainly not a fan of the practice.

I mean it's kind of a weird toss up. Arguably fighting bulls have better lives prior to the final act, given that most live 4-6 years before they are killed and live on huge ranches giving them plenty of space as opposed to wallowing in their own cramped shit for 1-2 years. But the death process is dragged out longer (though the final part aims to provide a clean and relatively painless death) as opposed to in factory farming where it's just done and over with. I guess it's, would you rather spend 4-6 years living decent life but then fight a brutal fight for the final minutes of your life but are then honored, or live horrendously for a short period and then be systematically slaughtered like you were nothing.

From what I read, there's some studies which suggest that bulls don't feel much pain and stress during the bullfighting because of hormones released. If we lived in a world where slaughterhouses didn't exist and everyone was mostly vegetarian, I could see a serious argument against bullfighting, but since we don't, people's priorities are misplaced if they see this as more inhumane than the “““painless””” killing of the beef and paltry industry.

[Torrocca]

I mean it's kind of a weird toss up. Arguably fighting bulls have better lives prior to the final act, given that most live 4-6 years before they are killed and live on huge ranches giving them plenty of space as opposed to wallowing in their own cramped shit for 1-2 years. But the death process is dragged out longer (though the final part aims to provide a clean and relatively painless death) as opposed to in factory farming where it's just done and over with. I guess it's, would you rather spend 4-6 years living decent life but then fight a brutal fight for the final minutes of your life but are then honored, or live horrendously for a short period and then be systematically slaughtered like you were nothing.

From what I read, there's some studies which suggest that bulls don't feel much pain and stress during the bullfighting because of hormones released. If we lived in a world where slaughterhouses didn't exist and everyone was mostly vegetarian, I could see a serious argument against bullfighting, but since we don't, people's priorities are misplaced if they see this as more inhumane than the “““painless””” killing of the beef and paltry industry.

To be entirely fair, here, even non-vegans/vegetarians can be aghast at the cruel treatment incurred at slaughterhouses as well as the deaths wrought on to animals in things like bullfighting without necessarily being wrong in their thoughts; there's no hypocrisy to wanting animals treated humanely, even if they're going to be killed for consumption.

[Washington Resistance Army]

From what I read, there's some studies which suggest that bulls don't feel much pain and stress during the bullfighting because of hormones released. If we lived in a world where slaughterhouses didn't exist and everyone was mostly vegetarian, I could see a serious argument against bullfighting, but since we don't, people's priorities are misplaced if they see this as more inhumane than the “““painless””” killing of the beef and paltry industry.

To be entirely fair, here, even non-vegans/vegetarians can be aghast at the cruel treatment incurred at slaughterhouses as well as the deaths wrought on to animals in things like bullfighting without necessarily being wrong in their thoughts; there's no hypocrisy to wanting animals treated humanely, even if they're going to be killed for consumption.

This^^^

Like I said in response to Napkizemlja even though I love eating meat I still go out of my way to try and only buy it from animals that weren't pumped full of drugs and were more or less free range until they got killed.

[Torrocca]

To be entirely fair, here, even non-vegans/vegetarians can be aghast at the cruel treatment incurred at slaughterhouses as well as the deaths wrought on to animals in things like bullfighting without necessarily being wrong in their thoughts; there's no hypocrisy to wanting animals treated humanely, even if they're going to be killed for consumption.

This^^^

Like I said in response to Napkizemlja even though I love eating meat I still go out of my way to try and only buy it from animals that weren't pumped full of drugs and were more or less free range until they got killed.

Yeah. That's really about the best we can currently realistically ask for right now, in regards to people eating meat, until things like lab-grown meats become popular enough to entirely replace slaughterhouses and the like. But it's not hypocrisy to be against any form of inhumaneness as a meat-eater.

[Diopolis]

To go to the ring is the bull's telos. It would be cruel to deny it without cause.

The bulls are bred for the purpose, so it is likely that they wouldn't even exist if bullfighting was outlawed; so the point is moot. And I doubt the bull really gives a shit about its purpose, or has any concept of it for that matter. And it's cruel to not give it a slow death?

Wow, there really is a hell of a lot wrong with what you just said...

They're also one of the most similar breeds to the aurochs, the wild ancestor of the bull. Oh, and as noted elsewhere, they likely don't feel much pain due to the hormones released in the ring, so it's not particularly cruel to allow it an honorable and courageous death- or to be pardoned in the ring for valor.

[Novus America]

The bulls are bred for the purpose, so it is likely that they wouldn't even exist if bullfighting was outlawed; so the point is moot. And I doubt the bull really gives a shit about its purpose, or has any concept of it for that matter. And it's cruel to not give it a slow death?

Wow, there really is a hell of a lot wrong with what you just said...

They're also one of the most similar breeds to the aurochs, the wild ancestor of the bull. Oh, and as noted elsewhere, they likely don't feel much pain due to the hormones released in the ring, so it's not particularly cruel to allow it an honorable and courageous death- or to be pardoned in the ring for valor.

But “honor” and “courage” mean nothing to the bull.
It has no understanding of them and gets nothing from them.

I am not saying bullfighting it is necessarily good or bad, just pointing out that “giving” the bull something it does not want is not a good justification.

[The New California Republic]

They're also one of the most similar breeds to the aurochs, the wild ancestor of the bull. Oh, and as noted elsewhere, they likely don't feel much pain due to the hormones released in the ring, so it's not particularly cruel to allow it an honorable and courageous death- or to be pardoned in the ring for valor.

But “honor” and “courage” mean nothing to the bull.
It has no understanding of them and gets nothing from them.

I am not saying bullfighting it is necessarily good or bad, just pointing out that “giving” the bull something it does not want is not a good justification.

I have said that to him already. He decided to ignore it and just double down with the same shit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Totally Not OEP]

It's all fun and games till someone pulls up with a stick.

[Loben The 2nd]

Bullfighting, not that different from hunting.

[Old Tyrannia]

I've decided to take up NCR's poll suggestion, but with some slight tweaking- "who is your favourite right-wing (fiction) writer?" I'm open to suggestions as to who could be included. At the moment I've got:

• Walter Scott
• Fyodor Dostoevsky
• GK Chesterton
• JRR Tolkien
• Yukio Mishima

I have mixed feelings. While yeah like you said it does seem rather hypocritical for us to look down on the process while we have some really shitty industries doing shitty things to cattle I'm certainly not a fan of the practice.

I mean it's kind of a weird toss up. Arguably fighting bulls have better lives prior to the final act, given that most live 4-6 years before they are killed and live on huge ranches giving them plenty of space as opposed to wallowing in their own cramped shit for 1-2 years. But the death process is dragged out longer (though the final part aims to provide a clean and relatively painless death) as opposed to in factory farming where it's just done and over with. I guess it's, would you rather spend 4-6 years living decent life but then fight a brutal fight for the final minutes of your life but are then honored, or live horrendously for a short period and then be systematically slaughtered like you were nothing.

I don't think it's hypocritical for those of us living in the West to criticise Spanish bullfighting if we also condemn animal welfare standards in the beef industry. As a pescatarian and an advocate for animal welfare, I do both. I find blood sports in general abhorrent, and it seems fairly self-evident to me that inflicting suffering on another living, feeling creature purely for entertainment is profoundly immoral.

Bullfighting, not that different from hunting.

Which is also abhorrent, when done for sport.

Hunting, when done ethically (which in my view means with minimum suffering caused to the animal and the carcass put to good use afterwards), is considerably more humane than bullfighting; but killing things for entertainment is still immoral.

[Diopolis]

I've decided to take up NCR's poll suggestion, but with some slight tweaking- "who is your favourite right-wing (fiction) writer?" I'm open to suggestions as to who could be included. At the moment I've got:

• Walter Scott
• Fyodor Dostoevsky
• GK Chesterton
• JRR Tolkien
• Yukio Mishima

Jerry Pournelle and Orson Scott Card, perhaps? Ayn Rand is barely a fiction writer, but quite influential. Solzhenitsyn is another one like that.

[Duhon]

Gabriele d'Annunzio? William Butler Yeats?

[Washington Resistance Army]

I also say d'Annunzio, I'm only vaguely familiar with his works but he was profoundly influential and I'd like to dive more into his stuff in the future.

[Napkizemlja]

I mean it's kind of a weird toss up. Arguably fighting bulls have better lives prior to the final act, given that most live 4-6 years before they are killed and live on huge ranches giving them plenty of space as opposed to wallowing in their own cramped shit for 1-2 years. But the death process is dragged out longer (though the final part aims to provide a clean and relatively painless death) as opposed to in factory farming where it's just done and over with. I guess it's, would you rather spend 4-6 years living decent life but then fight a brutal fight for the final minutes of your life but are then honored, or live horrendously for a short period and then be systematically slaughtered like you were nothing.

From what I read, there's some studies which suggest that bulls don't feel much pain and stress during the bullfighting because of hormones released. If we lived in a world where slaughterhouses didn't exist and everyone was mostly vegetarian, I could see a serious argument against bullfighting, but since we don't, people's priorities are misplaced if they see this as more inhumane than the “““painless””” killing of the beef and paltry industry.

That's an interesting study, do you know of any more? I'm hesitant to lean one way with just one study (that's personal goal of mine to not just jump at the latest chomping bit).

From what I read, there's some studies which suggest that bulls don't feel much pain and stress during the bullfighting because of hormones released. If we lived in a world where slaughterhouses didn't exist and everyone was mostly vegetarian, I could see a serious argument against bullfighting, but since we don't, people's priorities are misplaced if they see this as more inhumane than the “““painless””” killing of the beef and paltry industry.

To be entirely fair, here, even non-vegans/vegetarians can be aghast at the cruel treatment incurred at slaughterhouses as well as the deaths wrought on to animals in things like bullfighting without necessarily being wrong in their thoughts; there's no hypocrisy to wanting animals treated humanely, even if they're going to be killed for consumption.

Except a lot do not care, which I guess is my point. A lot of people who are opposed to bullfighting don't think twice about the meat industry. It's one thing for people who are against both, but in my experience that's rarely the case. Or their stance towards the meat industry is just "Oh well I wish it was better" and then a shrug as they continue to buy Angus patties at low prices from Wal-Mart.

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

From what I read, there's some studies which suggest that bulls don't feel much pain and stress during the bullfighting because of hormones released. If we lived in a world where slaughterhouses didn't exist and everyone was mostly vegetarian, I could see a serious argument against bullfighting, but since we don't, people's priorities are misplaced if they see this as more inhumane than the “““painless””” killing of the beef and paltry industry.

That's an interesting study, do you know of any more? I'm hesitant to lean one way with just one study (that's personal goal of mine to not just jump at the latest chomping bit).

To be entirely fair, here, even non-vegans/vegetarians can be aghast at the cruel treatment incurred at slaughterhouses as well as the deaths wrought on to animals in things like bullfighting without necessarily being wrong in their thoughts; there's no hypocrisy to wanting animals treated humanely, even if they're going to be killed for consumption.

Except a lot do not care, which I guess is my point. A lot of people who are opposed to bullfighting don't think twice about the meat industry. It's one thing for people who are against both, but in my experience that's rarely the case. Or their stance towards the meat industry is just "Oh well I wish it was better" and then a shrug as they continue to buy Angus patties at low prices from Wal-Mart.

I'm well aware of the fact that the meat industry is somewhat inhumane; the problem, of course, is that it doesn't go far enough in ensuring that the animals are treated (and slaughtered) in as cruel and sadistic a manner as possible. This proposal is keeping with the principles of reverse utilitarianism, that is to say, that moral acts are those which maximize suffering or the greatest number and minimize happiness for the greatest number.

(Don't worry, I'm merely writing in jest; I do not support such a "reverse utilitarianism"... I'm a Kantian, for goodness sake!)

[Torrocca]

From what I read, there's some studies which suggest that bulls don't feel much pain and stress during the bullfighting because of hormones released. If we lived in a world where slaughterhouses didn't exist and everyone was mostly vegetarian, I could see a serious argument against bullfighting, but since we don't, people's priorities are misplaced if they see this as more inhumane than the “““painless””” killing of the beef and paltry industry.

That's an interesting study, do you know of any more? I'm hesitant to lean one way with just one study (that's personal goal of mine to not just jump at the latest chomping bit).

To be entirely fair, here, even non-vegans/vegetarians can be aghast at the cruel treatment incurred at slaughterhouses as well as the deaths wrought on to animals in things like bullfighting without necessarily being wrong in their thoughts; there's no hypocrisy to wanting animals treated humanely, even if they're going to be killed for consumption.

Except a lot do not care, which I guess is my point. A lot of people who are opposed to bullfighting don't think twice about the meat industry. It's one thing for people who are against both, but in my experience that's rarely the case.

I mean, to be entirely fair again here, there's a myriad of reasons why people don't care. I'd sum most of that up to things like people being uninformed or stuck with personal issues, like socioeconomic troubles.

Or their stance towards the meat industry is just "Oh well I wish it was better" and then a shrug as they continue to buy Angus patties at low prices from Wal-Mart.

That's another thing, actually. The food provided by the meat industry is cheap but nourishing as hell. For a lot of people, from what I can tell, there's not really an option between being thoroughly emotionally invested in the atrocities of the meat industry and focusing on getting food on the table that can keep them afloat the next day. Plenty of people aren't quite impoverished enough to hate the system that helps perpetuate shit like this, but they're impoverished just enough that complacency's embedded thoroughly in their minds to instead just focus on the next paycheck and a good enough meal to make it through the day or whatever they can control rather than larger societal issues that are almost entirely out of their personal control.

[Germanic Templars]

Tagging this thread.