Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Duhon]

Still pretty good.

Also, we're the world's oldest surviving federation, so there's that.

Question though what is your definition of stable? Is it purely no civil war or unrest or something like that?

That’s not really that hard to do when most countries are either new or completely restructured after the devastation of the World Wars. Still pretty good though nonetheless. I’m just in a nitpicking mood tonight it seems.

Why must a state do more than maintain the peace and ensure people are happy, healthy, and wise?

And what is "more", anyway?

[Jack Thomas Lang]

But medieval Christian Europe, as disunited as it was in practice, inherited from the Romans the idea of a "universal emperor". Many Christians at that time, both eastern and western, still believed that it was God's plan for the world to be ruled by the "Roman Emperor".

Source?

From my understanding, the idea of Christian unity stems from the Papacy. In that every Catholic regardless of nation or people shared supranational loyalty to the Pope, and Church. Which was irrevocably destroyed in Western Europe by Protestantism.

[Hammer Britannia]

Not a literal "United States of Christendom". The ideal was for Christendom to cover the globe, not necessarily under one state.

But medieval Christian Europe, as disunited as it was in practice, inherited from the Romans the idea of a "universal emperor". Many Christians at that time, both eastern and western, still believed that it was God's plan for the world to be ruled by the "Roman Emperor".

Jokes on you, the one true Christianity is Coptic Gang

[Duhon]

You don't have to also have lived in Canada for hundreds of years to be a Canadian, that's just fucking retarded. I agree that the idea of a central Canadian identity is a dead man walking but for other reasons.

Allow me to phrase my point differently, since I probably botched it: if everybody from the immigrant fresh off the boat, to the guy who's family has been here 400 years, is "Canadian", then "Canadian" means nothing. And speaking the lingua franca allows you to communicate, which is definitely a positive; but it doesn't exactly make everybody feel "Canadian", because the term is so watered-down, its meaning has become so expansive that's its meaning is gone. And the same thing has happened with the United States. The term "American" is so broad, that its similarly devoid of meaning.

It is generally a problem with multiethnic empires and states, that their diversity splits the people living in them apart from each other, because everybody's going to start playing Identity Politics, and looking first and foremost to the interests of their ethnos rather than that of the Empire or State; and once one group starts playing that game, its only a matter of time before all the other groups start dropping the pretense of "Unity", and start looking only to themselves, and for themselves.

Its easy to pretend that people will willingly renounce their loyalty to their group in favour of allegiance to the Empire or State - but this is at best temporary - and will only last so long as the Empire or State is able to provide for, or cater to the needs of that group. The moment this is no longer so, and that particular group or ethnos feels disenfranchised or oppressed - because others' needs are put ahead of their own - you get instability - and once the situation inevitably escalates - you get secession (if its one group or people), or breakup, if its multiple. It doesn't matter how powerful the Empire or State is; once these dynamics are set into motion, the multiethnic State or Empire will be broken up, either in part or in whole.

This is still too much "a member of this tribe must be this tall, must be this strong, must have skin this light, must speak with this accent, must believe in these things, etc" stereotyping for me.

Tell me: as an illustration and just an illustration, what do you look for in a Canadian? These inchoate longings of a far more tribal Canada... define them?

[Conserative Morality]

Plenty of Nations and Empires are multi-ethnic, and doing fine; but this is because they understand the distinction between Citizenship and Culture. A Tatar can be a citizen of Russia, but he is not Russian, is he? Where a Nation or Empire goes wrong is in embracing all citizens as "X" without regard to their nationality (ethnicity from the Greek ethnos, meaning Nation) or culture. This is precisely what happened to Rome, after it became an Empire, it broadened the definition of "Roman" until, finally by the time of Septimius Severus (ruled: 193 - 211), it came to mean any citizen of the Empire; in short the term "Roman" became a completely meaningless qualifier, until by the 7th century AD, it looked like this:

(Image)

(Roman Empire in Pink)

It was Caracalla that extended citizenship to all freeborn of the Empire.

Trajan and Hadrain were from Spain. Septimius Severus himself was an African Punic/Berber. Decius, Phillipus, fucking Aurelian, restitor orbis - are these men not Romans? Greece was romanized so hard they called themselves Romans until very recently. France, Spain, Switzerland, Romania - all speak Romance Languages to this day.

If a Gaul, a Latin, a Greek, a Syrian, and an Armenian can all be called "Roman" despite speaking completely different languages, having completely different customs, and living in completely different circumstances, then "Roman" is meaningless, and those peoples will begin to look to other identifiers and regional distinctions; and so the Empire that stretched at one time from Scotland to Iraq, was reduced to the territory above.

That's not even close to what happened. First off, the customs and practices of Gauls, Latins, Greeks, and Syrians at the height of the Empire were very similar, and most would have spoke Latin, Greek, or both. As the Romans believed that civilized environs made civilized men, and uncivilized environs made uncivilized men, they endeavored to recreate Roman cities in both structure and construction in the provinces by Romanizing the elite and settling colonists. The reason the Roman Empire fell wasn't that "Roman became meaningless because the provinces became more Romanized", it was a long process of actual outside invasions, that were often most strongly resisted by those provincials whose Romanness you deride, despite often coming from provinces far distant from those being invaded.

[Hanafuridake]

Trying to argue that Rome's greatest strength was the cause of its downfall is really silly. Should they have stayed a small little city-state because the Etruscans and other Italian neighbors weren't Roman?

[Hammer Britannia]

Trying to argue that Rome's greatest strength was the cause of its downfall is really silly. Should they have stayed a small little city-state because the Etruscans and other Italian neighbors weren't Roman?

Yes

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Yes

Rome was mistake.

This post was made by the Greek gang.

[Hammer Britannia]

Yes

Rome was mistake.

This post was made by the Greek gang.

This, but unironically.

[Duhon]

Trying to argue that Rome's greatest strength was the cause of its downfall is really silly. Should they have stayed a small little city-state because the Etruscans and other Italian neighbors weren't Roman?

Sure.

[Napkizemlja]

You don't have to also have lived in Canada for hundreds of years to be a Canadian, that's just fucking retarded. I agree that the idea of a central Canadian identity is a dead man walking but for other reasons.

Allow me to phrase my point differently, since I probably botched it: if everybody from the immigrant fresh off the boat, to the guy who's family has been here 400 years, is "Canadian", then "Canadian" means nothing. And speaking the lingua franca allows you to communicate, which is definitely a positive; but it doesn't exactly make everybody feel "Canadian", because the term is so watered-down, its meaning has become so expansive that's its meaning is gone. And the same thing has happened with the United States. The term "American" is so broad, that its similarly devoid of meaning.

It is generally a problem with multiethnic empires and states, that their diversity splits the people living in them apart from each other, because everybody's going to start playing Identity Politics, and looking first and foremost to the interests of their ethnos rather than that of the Empire or State; and once one group starts playing that game, its only a matter of time before all the other groups start dropping the pretense of "Unity", and start looking only to themselves, and for themselves.

Its easy to pretend that people will willingly renounce their loyalty to their group in favour of allegiance to the Empire or State - but this is at best temporary - and will only last so long as the Empire or State is able to provide for, or cater to the needs of that group. The moment this is no longer so, and that particular group or ethnos feels disenfranchised or oppressed - because others' needs are put ahead of their own - you get instability - and once the situation inevitably escalates - you get secession (if its one group or people), or breakup, if its multiple. It doesn't matter how powerful the Empire or State is; once these dynamics are set into motion, the multiethnic State or Empire will be broken up, either in part or in whole.

I'll grant you that first generation immigrants cannot be fully assimilated, well it's rare (unless they moved when incredibly young). Almost all of my grandparents were born in the UK and they assimilated well enough but still retained a lot of their British habits even though most moved when still adolescent. But by the third generation and beyond? Hell yeah they usually are, at least if the country has a policy of promoting assimilation. You don't have to be British to be Canadian or American. It's kind of sad that the Latin American countries are beating us at this game to be perfectly honest.

[Hanafuridake]

Trying to argue that Rome's greatest strength was the cause of its downfall is really silly. Should they have stayed a small little city-state because the Etruscans and other Italian neighbors weren't Roman?

Sure.

When you hate the idea of races cultures mixing so much that you want to delete 2000 years of human civilization.

[Duhon]

Sure.

When you hate the idea of races cultures mixing so much that you want to delete 2000 years of human civilization.

None of that, more cringe before the fact of bloodshed.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Trying to argue that Rome's greatest strength was the cause of its downfall is really silly. Should they have stayed a small little city-state because the Etruscans and other Italian neighbors weren't Roman?

Sure.

Why?

[Hanafuridake]

When you hate the idea of races cultures mixing so much that you want to delete 2000 years of human civilization.

None of that, more cringe before the fact of bloodshed.

"A World-Historical individual is devoted to the One Aim, regardless of all else. It is even possible that such men may treat other great, even sacred interests inconsiderately; conduct which is indeed obnoxious to moral reprehension. But so mighty a form must trample down many an innocent flower or crush to pieces many an object in its path.”

[Duhon]

None of that, more cringe before the fact of bloodshed.

"A World-Historical individual is devoted to the One Aim, regardless of all else. It is even possible that such men may treat other great, even sacred interests inconsiderately; conduct which is indeed obnoxious to moral reprehension. But so mighty a form must trample down many an innocent flower or crush to pieces many an object in its path.”

An excuse for delusions of grandeur and self-indulgence.

[Duhon]

Sure.

Why?

Because I'm impossible.

[Hanafuridake]

An excuse for delusions of grandeur and self-indulgence.

Did I claim to be a world-historical individual? No.

[Duhon]

An excuse for delusions of grandeur and self-indulgence.

Did I claim to be a world-historical individual? No.

I didn't say or even come close to saying that, but anyone in power who cites the process of making an omelet as justification for whatever shit he's made up... is not gonna be a nice guy, even once shit settles down.

[Kowani]

Did I claim to be a world-historical individual? No.

I didn't say or even come close to saying that, but anyone in power who cites the process of making an omelet as justification for whatever shit he's made up... is not gonna be a nice guy, even once shit settles down.

The bricks with which the house of history is shaped are made of bones, and the tree of Society watered with blood. Being nice gets one nowhere, being ruthless makes the giants of history.

[Duhon]

I didn't say or even come close to saying that, but anyone in power who cites the process of making an omelet as justification for whatever shit he's made up... is not gonna be a nice guy, even once shit settles down.

The bricks with which the house of history is shaped are made of bones, and the tree of Society watered with blood. Being nice gets one nowhere, being ruthless makes the giants of history.

Because we haven't tried being nice to one another.

[Napkizemlja]

I didn't say or even come close to saying that, but anyone in power who cites the process of making an omelet as justification for whatever shit he's made up... is not gonna be a nice guy, even once shit settles down.

The bricks with which the house of history is shaped are made of bones, and the tree of Society watered with blood. Being nice gets one nowhere, being ruthless makes the giants of history.

Someone became an Italian Futurist.

[Kowani]

The bricks with which the house of history is shaped are made of bones, and the tree of Society watered with blood. Being nice gets one nowhere, being ruthless makes the giants of history.

Because we haven't tried being nice to one another.

Do you think the Soviets would have granted Eastern Europe independence if they had not been forced to?

[Duhon]

Because we haven't tried being nice to one another.

Do you think the Soviets would have granted Eastern Europe independence if they had not been forced to?

All I can say is that one must look further down.

[Kowani]

Do you think the Soviets would have granted Eastern Europe independence if they had not been forced to?

All I can say is that one must look further down.

And all I say is to go beyond, yet here we are.