Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Salus Maior]

@ ME

CM, it's great that you love your country! It is great that you support our national institutions and patriotism. A lot of people are abandoning that. However, be careful not to love you what you believe the country to be, what true patriotism is, or the proper state of institutions, to the point it becomes impossible to love your fellow countrymen.

It's not that I don't love many of you. It's that, when the chips are down, I don't trust you absolutely the way I would someone who puts their country first. Imagine it like being suspicious that a sibling is up to no good. It doesn't mean you don't love them (usually), but you are checking your seat before you sit down and being very careful not to take the suspicious looking pack of gum with one piece sticking out they offer you.

The feeling is mutual.

[Joohan]

But I do! I believe that with every generation (save a few lost ones after the Civil War) we have come closer and closer to our founding ideals in their purest form.

America's founding ideals, or the modern interpratation of those ideals? I understand that we had a wide and varied set of opinions among our founding fathers - but I doubt any of them would look upon our present state of affairs as a realization of their ambitions.

[Conserative Morality]

It's not that I don't love many of you. It's that, when the chips are down, I don't trust you absolutely the way I would someone who puts their country first. Imagine it like being suspicious that a sibling is up to no good. It doesn't mean you don't love them (usually), but you are checking your seat before you sit down and being very careful not to take the suspicious looking pack of gum with one piece sticking out they offer you.

The feeling is mutual.

tbqh I'm not sure I would respect an opposing view that didn't view me like that, at the very least.

We all have our ideals, and we must be aware that sometimes, yes, everyone can win and sing kumbaya around the fire... and sometimes we play a zero-sum game. I respect conviction more than agreement.

[Kowani]

America's founding ideals, or the modern interpratation of those ideals? I understand that we had a wide and varied set of opinions among our founding fathers - but I doubt any of them would look upon our present state of affairs as a realization of their ambitions.

That’s true. The slaves are free, the women can vote, the poor can vote, we elect Senators directly, the yeoman farmer is a dead concept, etc.

[Conserative Morality]

America's founding ideals, or the modern interpratation of those ideals? I understand that we had a wide and varied set of opinions among our founding fathers - but I doubt any of them would look upon our present state of affairs as a realization of their ambitions.

Ah, but I would contend that between all of them, every or nearly every piece of our modern society would find approval, once the cultural shock wore off. We are not so far off from the Constitution as some like to pretend, and many of the ideals expressed by the Founding Fathers are distinctly modern in sentiment; appropriate as we are, in a sense, one of the first truly modern nations, created nearly wholecloth by the Enlightenment rather than creating it.

[Joohan]

America's founding ideals, or the modern interpratation of those ideals? I understand that we had a wide and varied set of opinions among our founding fathers - but I doubt any of them would look upon our present state of affairs as a realization of their ambitions.

That’s true. The slaves are free, the women can vote, the poor can vote, we elect Senators directly, the yeoman farmer is a dead concept, etc.

A jaded and overly simplistic way of viewing America's founders.

[Conserative Morality]

That’s true. The slaves are free,

Only one of the Founding Fathers was an actual supporter of slavery, and even then only lukewarmly. Washington even authorized the first integrated unit in US history. I mean, almost by default since it was the very beginning of US history, but you get what I mean.

the women can vote, the poor can vote,

Not all that surprising, considering several US states early on allowed for one or the other (keeping the latter, but eventually discarding the former, unfortunately, until much later)

we elect Senators directly,

A point of discussion early on.

the yeoman farmer is a dead concept, etc.

Jefferson would have a heart-attack, but I think Hamilton is smiling in his massive crypt beneath the US treasury.

[Kowani]

That’s true. The slaves are free,

Only one of the Founding Fathers was an actual supporter of slavery, and even then only lukewarmly. Washington even authorized the first integrated unit in US history. I mean, almost by default since it was the very beginning of US history, but you get what I mean.

True. However, even then the basic concept of racial equality (not legal but on a moral or intellectual level) Yeah, no.
Oh, and let’s not forget the ones who actually had slaves, regardless of whether they supported it or not.

the women can vote, the poor can vote,

Not all that surprising, considering several US states early on allowed for one or the other (keeping the latter, but eventually discarding the former, unfortunately, until much later)

I wasn’t aware the FF were such huge Women’s Rights Activists.
Also, the elitist views of some of them directly led to property qualifications for voting.

we elect Senators directly,

A point of discussion early on.

Yeah, how’d that turn out?

the yeoman farmer is a dead concept, etc.

Jefferson would have a heart-attack, but I think Hamilton is smiling in his massive crypt beneath the US treasury.

Well I don’t like Jefferson, so…

[Napkizemlja]

@ ME

CM, it's great that you love your country! It is great that you support our national institutions and patriotism. A lot of people are abandoning that. However, be careful not to love you what you believe the country to be, what true patriotism is, or the proper state of institutions, to the point it becomes impossible to love your fellow countrymen.

It's not that I don't love many of you.

You literally were defending categorizing Christian Americans as fifth columnists whose repression would be completely warranted if push came to shove. IIRC I've also seen you decry the Japanese internment. Lmao or whatever. Maybe this gaslight will work on some but don't think it works on everyone.

[Napkizemlja]

I think, except for 3-4 of you

Tis an honor.

For the record, there is only one person I dislike ITT and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out who it is.

[Conserative Morality]

True. However, even then the basic concept of racial equality (not legal but on a moral or intellectual level) Yeah, no.

At a time when most white leaders doubted the capacity of blacks, Hamilton believed slavery was morally wrong and wrote that "their natural faculties are as good as ours."[263] Unlike contemporaries such as Jefferson, who considered the removal of freed slaves (to a western territory, the West Indies, or Africa) to be essential to any plan for emancipation, Hamilton pressed for emancipation with no such provisions.[260]:22 Hamilton and other Federalists supported Toussaint Louverture's revolution against France in Haiti, which had originated as a slave revolt.[260]:23 Hamilton's suggestions helped shape the Haitian constitution, and when Haiti became the Western Hemisphere's first independent black nation in 1804, Hamilton urged closer economic and diplomatic ties.[260]:23

Attention to emancipated black people, it is therefore to be hoped, will become a branch of our national policy; but, as far as we contribute to promote this emancipation, so far that attention is evidently a serious duty incumbent on us, and which we mean to discharge to the best of our judgment and abilities.

To instruct, to advise, to qualify those, who have been restored to freedom, for the exercise and enjoyment of civil liberty, to promote in them habits of industry, to furnish them with employments suited to their age, sex, talents, and other circumstances, and to procure their children an education calculated for their future situation in life; these are the great outlines of the annexed plan, which we have adopted, and which we conceive will essentially promote the public good, and the happiness of these our hitherto too much neglected fellow-creatures.

The unfortunate condition of the persons, whose labour in part I employed, has been the only unavoidable subject of regret. To make the Adults among them as easy & as comfortable in their circumstances as their actual state of ignorance & improvidence would admit; & to lay a foundation to prepare the rising generation for a destiny different from that in which they were born; afforded some satisfaction to my mind, & could not I hoped be displeasing to the justice of the Creator.

Oh, and let’s not forget the ones who actually had slaves, regardless of whether they supported it or not.

Washington inherited his slaves and was forbidden from Virginian law to manumit them until his death. Jay purchased slaves in order to free them. Franklin manumitted his long before the American Revolution. Adams never owned slaves, nor did Hamilton.

Not all that surprising, considering several US states early on allowed for one or the other (keeping the latter, but eventually discarding the former, unfortunately, until much later)

I wasn’t aware the FF were such huge Women’s Rights Activists.
Also, the elitist views of some of them directly led to property qualifications for voting.

And?

Yeah, how’d that turn out?

Southern aristocrats won in the compromise.

[Kowani]

True. However, even then the basic concept of racial equality (not legal but on a moral or intellectual level) Yeah, no.

At a time when most white leaders doubted the capacity of blacks, Hamilton believed slavery was morally wrong and wrote that "their natural faculties are as good as ours."[263] Unlike contemporaries such as Jefferson, who considered the removal of freed slaves (to a western territory, the West Indies, or Africa) to be essential to any plan for emancipation, Hamilton pressed for emancipation with no such provisions.[260]:22 Hamilton and other Federalists supported Toussaint Louverture's revolution against France in Haiti, which had originated as a slave revolt.[260]:23 Hamilton's suggestions helped shape the Haitian constitution, and when Haiti became the Western Hemisphere's first independent black nation in 1804, Hamilton urged closer economic and diplomatic ties.[260]:23

Attention to emancipated black people, it is therefore to be hoped, will become a branch of our national policy; but, as far as we contribute to promote this emancipation, so far that attention is evidently a serious duty incumbent on us, and which we mean to discharge to the best of our judgment and abilities.

To instruct, to advise, to qualify those, who have been restored to freedom, for the exercise and enjoyment of civil liberty, to promote in them habits of industry, to furnish them with employments suited to their age, sex, talents, and other circumstances, and to procure their children an education calculated for their future situation in life; these are the great outlines of the annexed plan, which we have adopted, and which we conceive will essentially promote the public good, and the happiness of these our hitherto too much neglected fellow-creatures.

The unfortunate condition of the persons, whose labour in part I employed, has been the only unavoidable subject of regret. To make the Adults among them as easy & as comfortable in their circumstances as their actual state of ignorance & improvidence would admit; & to lay a foundation to prepare the rising generation for a destiny different from that in which they were born; afforded some satisfaction to my mind, & could not I hoped be displeasing to the justice of the Creator.

Oh, and let’s not forget the ones who actually had slaves, regardless of whether they supported it or not.

Washington inherited his slaves and was forbidden from Virginian law to manumit them until his death. Jay purchased slaves in order to free them. Franklin manumitted his long before the American Revolution. Adams never owned slaves, nor did Hamilton.

I was not aware that these were the only Founding Fathers. Now, what they did was great, (Although Washington was confined by circumstances.)

I wasn’t aware the FF were such huge Women’s Rights Activists.
Also, the elitist views of some of them directly led to property qualifications for voting.

And?

That we have drifted from some of the original ideas that propagated the Republic.

Yeah, how’d that turn out?

Southern aristocrats won in the compromise.

Strange how that works out, isn’t it?

[Conserative Morality]

I was not aware that these were the only Founding Fathers. Now, what they did was great, (Although Washington was confined by circumstances.)

That's only missing Jefferson and Madison, m80. And even Jefferson was a supporter of abolition.

That we have drifted from some of the original ideas that propagated the Republic.

Far from universal ideas. Vermont, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky all allowed universal suffrage. Franklin and Madison were supporters.

Strange how that works out, isn’t it?

That when you need the support of scummy people scummy compromises happen?

[Kowani]

I was not aware that these were the only Founding Fathers. Now, what they did was great, (Although Washington was confined by circumstances.)

That's only missing Jefferson and Madison, m80. And even Jefferson was a supporter of abolition.

Of the 7 principal. There were more than just those.

That we have drifted from some of the original ideas that propagated the Republic.

Far from universal ideas. Vermont, Pennsylvania, and Kentucky all allowed universal suffrage. Franklin and Madison were supporters.

Yes, 3 out of 13. Or rather, 2 of 13 because Kentucky didn’t become a State until 3 years after the Constitution.

Strange how that works out, isn’t it?

That when you need the support of scummy people scummy compromises happen?

That the ideals of the Early Republic were not anything close to universal.

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

I think, except for 3-4 of you

Tis an honor.

For the record, there is only one person I dislike ITT and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out who it is.

My apologies; is there anything that I may do to make amends?

[Kowani]

Tis an honor.

For the record, there is only one person I dislike ITT and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out who it is.

My apologies; is there anything that I may do to make amends?

Yeah, it’s not you.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Thank you guys for having the shitshow while I was gone.

[Salus Maior]

Thank you guys for having the shitshow while I was gone.

We could start it up again for you if you'd like.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Thank you guys for having the shitshow while I was gone.

We could start it up again for you if you'd like.

I think I'll leave it.

[Fahran]

I feel usurped but am glad to begin posting in the new iteration of the RWDT.

Also, I'm not really fond of discussing people over ideas, especially not in a negative way. I have respect and at least the barest affection for everyone here with the exception of a single person who I believe got banned for incessant trolling, and my attitude towards them was more akin to annoyance than outright dislike or disdain. That person insinuated that I was a slut though, so...

Anyhow, I'll try to bring up a worthwhile subject. Since we were discussing my homeland recently and the vices of its dubiously named founding fathers, who among them would you say best represents your ideal of an American Paragon? You've got several hundred to choose from arguably. I tend to sympathize most with and be intrigued most by George Washington and Alexander Hamilton.

Tis an honor.

For the record, there is only one person I dislike ITT and I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out who it is.

My apologies; is there anything that I may do to make amends?

It's not you. I've been crying over exams for the past month, and I can figure that out with an eye closed and a coffee mug pressed to my lips at 6:00 AM in the morning.

What happens when peace and kindness is not enough? What happens when the survival of the nation, or its ideals, requires more of you?

An ideology that makes the state and church enemies is one that should be carefully weighed and considered, and, in most circumstances, shied away from. I see no need to awaken the phantoms of Robespierre and Calles. Let them rest peacefully in their crypts as we proceed harmoniously into the future. If ever laïcité leads to violence, then steel and ugly passions must determine the outcome - as ever they have when the facade is peeled away.

[Washington Resistance Army]

we elect Senators directly

We really should undo that.

[Kowani]

we elect Senators directly

We really should undo that.

No.

[Washington Resistance Army]

We really should undo that.

No.

Yes. Before you could make a good argument that appointment of Senators led to them representing the individual states as units of the Union. Now however the Senate is just a smaller version of the House that further complicates the legislative process for no reason.

[Napkizemlja]

What is the RWDT's opinion on Spanish style bullfighting? Should it be banned? Celebrated? Are you indifferent?

Tbh at times I find it hard to condemn it, given our own treatment of most cattle in the West. Can we honestly condemn them for torture when our industrial scale harvesting of beef often does the same?

[Washington Resistance Army]

What is the RWDT's opinion on Spanish style bullfighting? Should it be banned? Celebrated? Are you indifferent?

Tbh at times I find it hard to condemn it, given our own treatment of most cattle in the West. Can we honestly condemn them for torture when our industrial scale harvesting of beef often does the same?

I have mixed feelings. While yeah like you said it does seem rather hypocritical for us to look down on the process while we have some really shitty industries doing shitty things to cattle I'm certainly not a fan of the practice.