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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
81
25%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
35
11%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
33
10%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
112
34%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
15
5%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
50
15%
 
Total votes : 326

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 11:46 am

Nova Cyberia wrote:Telling people their true origin is somewhere else only serves to divide American society. Time for a better national myth.

As opposed to playing "My family has been here longer than your's"? No, get your old world bullshit out of here. No one who loves America should want her to become some pathetic old world nation two steps away from a pogrom at any point in time.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Wed May 22, 2019 11:46 am

Bear Stearns wrote:
Colonial Dutch and Germans were minorities that were either subsumed into the larger Yankee nation or remained on the periphery, they never were the core.

The various British-descended people in the colonies had largely caste aside their European identities and simply saw themselves as Americans (or Yankees or Southerners or Appalachians, but still unequivocally American). This was something the Founding Fathers all recognized and even celebrated.


I think perhaps you underestimate the influence of various regional and ethnic identities. For example, the Pennsylvania Germans retained a distinct culture and ethnic identity up to the two world wars, and some of them even afterwards. Of course, I may be a bit biased because of my dislike for the liberal capitalist values that are so strongly intertwined with the US national mythology, so that have stronger feelings about being a Pennsylvanian than an American. But then I realize many Americans think differently than I do.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 11:49 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Not really. The vast majority of black Americans are 6+ generations, and the majority of white Americans have at least some colonial ancestry.

At the very least, the country is still majority descended from people who's families have been here 4+ generations.

Pretty stupid to keep calling them immigrants. Also, it's a dumb national mythology. We have better ones.

>> when the percentage of immigrants in the US since the 1850s has been ~10%
>> when the number of immigrants today is 15%
>> when 40% of Americans say at least one grandparent was an immigrant

Jesus Christ, it must really hurt WASPs to be a dying breed if they're resorting to this level of bullshit.


Holy fuck are you just making shit up?

% of foreign born population by year:
1940: 8.8%
1950: 6.9%
1960: 5.4%
1970: 4.2%


And those same Americans with one immigrant grandparent most likely also have an ancestor that's been here for generations. Unless of course, they're perpetual foreigners that have continued to live in their shitty ethnic enclaves, but not everyone's perfect.

And we're aren't dying. We're still here, quietly going about our lives, just as Americans.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Wed May 22, 2019 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed May 22, 2019 11:50 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Really. What's the fun in idealizing America as full of strangers in a strange land rather than as an actual nation, culture, heritage, etc.?

It sounds schizophrenic. Where's the pride in being descended from lame foreigners? Far better national myths include colonial independence narratives and stories of Western conquest.

I guess it must suck for you lot not being able to say "Do you know who my daddy is?" anymore and get anything but weird looks from folk who probably have Italians or something else suitably terrifying in their family tree.

Lol

You say this as if you don't live in some Appalachian area that's 95% white.

You've spent almost no time around minorities, yet virtue signal to all of us about how important it is to do so.

Not impressive, fam. Self-hatred is so cliche.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 11:52 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Really. What's the fun in idealizing America as full of strangers in a strange land rather than as an actual nation, culture, heritage, etc.?

It sounds schizophrenic. Where's the pride in being descended from lame foreigners? Far better national myths include colonial independence narratives and stories of Western conquest.

I guess it must suck for you lot not being able to say "Do you know who my daddy is?" anymore and get anything but weird looks from folk who probably have Italians or something else suitably terrifying in their family tree.


Ah, so now you're projecting some personal grudge you have into this.

Most of us aren't wealthy, so not sure why that would be relevant.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 11:53 am

Bear Stearns wrote:Holy fuck are you just making shit up?

% of foreign born population by year:
1940: 8.8%
1950: 6.9%
1960: 5.4%
1970: 4.2%

Nice cherrypicking, buddy. :)
1850 9.7
1860 13.2
1870 14.4
1880 13.3
1890 14.8
1900 13.6
1910 14.7
1920 13.2
1930 11.6
1940 8.8
1950 6.9
1960 5.4
1970 4.7
1980 6.2
1990 7.9
2000 11.1
2010 12.9
2015 13.4
And those same Americans with one immigrant grandparent most likely also have an ancestor that's been here for generations. Unless of course, they're perpetual foreigners that have continued to live in their shitty ethnic enclaves, but not everyone's perfect.

Yes, that's kind of how intermarriage works. Eventually you end up being able to trace one line back for generations. It's why the vast majority of people in the modern day are descended from royalty of some kind or another.

Is that how you're measuring "mostly non-immigrants"? "Somewhere far back in their family tree is probably a WASP"? Jesus, what a pathetic standard.
And we're aren't dying. We're still here, quietly going about our lives, just as Americans.

lol

Is that why the percentage of white people, protestants, and Anglos are all decreasing in the US? Because you aren't dying out? Good riddance to anyone who thinks that being a WASP is some integral part of their identity.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed May 22, 2019 11:54 am

Bear Stearns wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:>> when the percentage of immigrants in the US since the 1850s has been ~10%
>> when the number of immigrants today is 15%
>> when 40% of Americans say at least one grandparent was an immigrant

Jesus Christ, it must really hurt WASPs to be a dying breed if they're resorting to this level of bullshit.


Holy fuck are you just making shit up?

% of foreign born population by year:
1940: 8.8%
1950: 6.9%
1960: 5.4%
1970: 4.2%


And those same Americans with one immigrant grandparent most likely also have an ancestor that's been here for generations. Unless of course, they're perpetual foreigners that have continued to live in their shitty ethnic enclaves, but not everyone's perfect.

And we're aren't dying. We're still here, quietly going about our lives, just as Americans.


Look, I have nothing against WASPs who are not pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.
You are Americans too. Just not the only Americans.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 11:55 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Telling people their true origin is somewhere else only serves to divide American society. Time for a better national myth.

As opposed to playing "My family has been here longer than your's"? No, get your old world bullshit out of here. No one who loves America should want her to become some pathetic old world nation two steps away from a pogrom at any point in time.


It's not that, but we just don't like being told that we don't have a nation or a culture because some FOB feels excluded by it. We also don't appreciate being told that we're somehow still immigrants when this has been the only land and culture we have known for centuries.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 11:55 am

Nova Cyberia wrote:Lol

You say this as if you don't live in some Appalachian area that's 95% white.

... Italians aren't white?

What is this, the 1930s?

And in any case, I've lived in racially diverse neighborhoods most of my life.
You've spent almost no time around minorities, yet virtue signal to all of us about how important it is to do so.

lol
Not impressive, fam. Self-hatred is so cliche.

Not nearly as cliche as hatred of the dreaded Other.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 11:56 am

Bear Stearns wrote:Ah, so now you're projecting some personal grudge you have into this.

Most of us aren't wealthy, so not sure why that would be relevant.

For the same reason that all other ethnonationalists find it relevant for some reason: irrational, insecure fear of outsiders.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed May 22, 2019 11:57 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Telling people their true origin is somewhere else only serves to divide American society. Time for a better national myth.

As opposed to playing "My family has been here longer than your's"? No, get your old world bullshit out of here. No one who loves America should want her to become some pathetic old world nation two steps away from a pogrom at any point in time.

As opposed to simply saying that we're all Americans instead of relying on some flimsy immigrant mythos to validate our existence.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed May 22, 2019 11:57 am

Novus America wrote:Look, I have nothing against WASPs who are not pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.
You are Americans too. Just not the only Americans.

You can believe that the USA has a cultural and ethnic identity (or identities) distinct from European, African, and American countries without falling into the trap of white supremacy. We do possess a lot in common beyond simple political ideas or ideology, and our history has, at times, been defined by that.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 11:58 am

Novus America wrote:Look, I have nothing against WASPs who are not pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.
You are Americans too. Just not the only Americans.

Anyone who seriously identifies as a WASP is probably pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.

Most people who are protestants don't identify as "Protestants", but as a sect. Most people with Anglo ancestry specify that they're "English" rather than a late 19th century racialist buzzword.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed May 22, 2019 11:58 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:Lol

You say this as if you don't live in some Appalachian area that's 95% white.

... Italians aren't white?

What is this, the 1930s?

And in any case, I've lived in racially diverse neighborhoods most of my life.
You've spent almost no time around minorities, yet virtue signal to all of us about how important it is to do so.

lol
Not impressive, fam. Self-hatred is so cliche.

Not nearly as cliche as hatred of the dreaded Other.

I doubt you have, tbh. No one who's actually lived around minorities acts as you do. Usually they're more secure in themselves.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 11:58 am

Bear Stearns wrote:It's not that, but we just don't like being told that we don't have a nation or a culture because some FOB feels excluded by it. We also don't appreciate being told that we're somehow still immigrants when this has been the only land and culture we have known for centuries.

You're centuries old? Impressive.

Either that or you're doing exactly what I said you were; that is to say, playing "Do you know who my daddy is?" like some low-grade Old World ethnonationalist.
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Bienenhalde
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Postby Bienenhalde » Wed May 22, 2019 11:58 am

Bear Stearns wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:
If you really think those things are so bad, we should have never annexed the southwest in the first place.


Those things barely existed in the Southwest at the time of annexation, so it wasn't really a problem. Most of Alta California except for coastal missions was wilderness or Indian country. And the places with a larger Hispanic population (Santa Fe and Texas) were demographically swamped by the waves of Americans moving West, so it was never really an issue at the time.

Stopping at the Rio Grande was smart however. Would've been worse if we kept going.


We should not have stolen land that did not belong to us in the first place.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed May 22, 2019 12:00 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Novus America wrote:Look, I have nothing against WASPs who are not pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.
You are Americans too. Just not the only Americans.

Anyone who seriously identifies as a WASP is probably pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.

Most people who are protestants don't identify as "Protestants", but as a sect. Most people with Anglo ancestry specify that they're "English" rather than a late 19th century racialist buzzword.


Fair enough.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Wed May 22, 2019 12:01 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Those things barely existed in the Southwest at the time of annexation, so it wasn't really a problem. Most of Alta California except for coastal missions was wilderness or Indian country. And the places with a larger Hispanic population (Santa Fe and Texas) were demographically swamped by the waves of Americans moving West, so it was never really an issue at the time.

Stopping at the Rio Grande was smart however. Would've been worse if we kept going.


We should not have stolen land that did not belong to us in the first place.


So we should all move back to Africa?
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Fahran
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Posts: 4303
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed May 22, 2019 12:01 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:We should not have stolen land that did not belong to us in the first place.

I have no complaints about that land being stolen from my mother's country of origin to be honest. Texas was close to seceding even without large-scale Anglo immigration given how terrible Santa Ana was.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:01 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:As opposed to simply saying that we're all Americans instead of relying on some flimsy immigrant mythos to validate our existence.

That we're all Americans is the essential nature of the immigrant mythos. It prevents morons from playing "More American that thou" by saying, say, that their family has been here for CENTURIES! Clearly, I don't know who their daddy is.
Nova Cyberia wrote:I doubt you have, tbh. No one who's actually lived around minorities acts as you do. Usually they're more secure in themselves.

>> mixed race
>> from a mixed race family
>> went to a school where mixed race people were 1/5 of the student body
>> "u never been round minorities!"

Good job, buddy!
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Bienenhalde
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Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bienenhalde » Wed May 22, 2019 12:03 pm

Novus America wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:
We should not have stolen land that did not belong to us in the first place.


So we should all move back to Africa?


Nice strawman. Yes, I know humans originated in Africa, but in other parts of the world, we still have the first group of humans to settle in any given place before anyone else, as well and the distinction of the first organized government to claim a territory.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
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Bear Stearns
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Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:03 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Holy fuck are you just making shit up?

% of foreign born population by year:
1940: 8.8%
1950: 6.9%
1960: 5.4%
1970: 4.2%

Nice cherrypicking, buddy. :)
1850 9.7
1860 13.2
1870 14.4
1880 13.3
1890 14.8
1900 13.6
1910 14.7
1920 13.2
1930 11.6
1940 8.8
1950 6.9
1960 5.4
1970 4.7
1980 6.2
1990 7.9
2000 11.1
2010 12.9
2015 13.4

It disputes your BS claim that foreigners were always !0% of the populace, as if that's some desirable trait to have. However, that's not true and America has gone through more periods of immigration reduction and restriction than it has of open immigration. Immigration's contribution to the US is vastly overstates.

Conserative Morality wrote:
And those same Americans with one immigrant grandparent most likely also have an ancestor that's been here for generations. Unless of course, they're perpetual foreigners that have continued to live in their shitty ethnic enclaves, but not everyone's perfect.

Yes, that's kind of how intermarriage works. Eventually you end up being able to trace one line back for generations. It's why the vast majority of people in the modern day are descended from royalty of some kind or another.

Is that how you're measuring "mostly non-immigrants"? "Somewhere far back in their family tree is probably a WASP"? Jesus, what a pathetic standard.


Are you really trying to say that people born here, with colonial ancestry are still immigrants? I mean jesus. What's the cuttoff for you when you stop being an immigrant?

Conserative Morality wrote:
And we're aren't dying. We're still here, quietly going about our lives, just as Americans.

lol

Is that why the percentage of white people, protestants, and Anglos are all decreasing in the US? Because you aren't dying out? Good riddance to anyone who thinks that being a WASP is some integral part of their identity.


Anglo percentage declines are largely due to self-identification. Anglos in the US tend to either consider their ethnicity American or something else for whatever reason. Our population is still growing in gross numbers. Sorry your weird, gleeful thoughts of an ethnicity "dying out" aren't really happening.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Wed May 22, 2019 12:04 pm

Fahran wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:We should not have stolen land that did not belong to us in the first place.

I have no complaints about that land being stolen from my mother's country of origin to be honest. Texas was close to seceding even without large-scale Anglo immigration given how terrible Santa Ana was.

And, of course, in the north the Iturbides were more popular.
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Bear Stearns
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Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:06 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:As opposed to simply saying that we're all Americans instead of relying on some flimsy immigrant mythos to validate our existence.

That we're all Americans is the essential nature of the immigrant mythos. It prevents morons from playing "More American that thou" by saying, say, that their family has been here for CENTURIES! Clearly, I don't know who their daddy is.


You need to have some distinction for who is an American and who isn't. If you take the immigrant mythos to its logical conclusion, then basically anyone who sets foot here is an American. And if everyone is an American, then what does American really mean? Not much.

I don't really follow this "daddy" thing you keep mentioning. It's weird.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
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Bear Stearns
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Posts: 2055
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:07 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Those things barely existed in the Southwest at the time of annexation, so it wasn't really a problem. Most of Alta California except for coastal missions was wilderness or Indian country. And the places with a larger Hispanic population (Santa Fe and Texas) were demographically swamped by the waves of Americans moving West, so it was never really an issue at the time.

Stopping at the Rio Grande was smart however. Would've been worse if we kept going.


We should not have stolen land that did not belong to us in the first place.


Who stole land, and from whom?
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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