NationStates

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:01 pm**

Nea Byzantia wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
If I may, and please forgive me if I seem boorish, but I find the explanation of "it's just a figure of speech" to be unlikely, especially given one of Dugin's influences, the fascist turbo-mystic Evola.

Why did Evola reject Metaphor and Abstraction?

My apologies if my syntax was unclear, do allow me to rephrase it. My intended meaning was that Evola, who heavily influenced Dugin's work, was a hardcore esotericist/occultist; as such, I find the interpretation that "it's just a figure of speech" to be unlikely because Dugin and Evola genuinely believe in such... erm… would "mysticisms" be the right term?

Zordennox wrote:I have some reading suggestions that might be good to add onto this thread, Old Tyrannia.

Revolt Against the Modern World, Julius Evola
https://www.amazon.com/Revolt-Against-M ... 089281506X

Political Theology, Carl Schmitt
https://www.amazon.com/Political-Theolo ... 0226738892

Ethnos and Society, Aleksandr Dugin
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ethnos ... 1128075499

I find it rather bizarre that you decided to join the thread while we were discussing their works. Nevertheless (and despite our seeming ideological differences), I wish you welcome.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:05 pm**

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Zordennox wrote:I have some reading suggestions that might be good to add onto this thread, Old Tyrannia.

Revolt Against the Modern World, Julius Evola
https://www.amazon.com/Revolt-Against-M ... 089281506X

ngl I'm actually planning to dive into Evola once I finish up with Dugin's silliness. I've heard some amusing things about the superfascist and it'll be nice to see how true it all is.

Evola was very critical of fascism at times. He wrote about fascism in his book, Fascism Viewed From the Right. Evola was a traditionalist in the truest sense of the word.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:06 pm**

Zordennox wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
No, as in the actual physical world. As in, Dugin's ultimate goal is to unmake reality itself. Pardon my language, but that shit's wack my dude.

No, Dugin's plan is not to unmake reality, but to return to a previous, sacred existence. Dugin rejects the relativism and nihilism of modernity. This does not make him a nihilist for opposing nihilism.

Yes, yes, physics is nihilist, blah blah blah, his wanting to divorce the world from any sense of reality mere esoteric obfuscation for the ideological noob, blah blah blah, no way a man with a beard who once hobnobbed with Moscow's who's who can be an actual batshit arsonist, blah blah blah.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:08 pm**

Zordennox wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
No, as in the actual physical world. As in, Dugin's ultimate goal is to unmake reality itself. Pardon my language, but that shit's wack my dude.

No, Dugin's plan is not to unmake reality, but to return to a previous, sacred existence. Dugin rejects the relativism and nihilism of modernity. This does not make him a nihilist for opposing nihilism.

Well Dugin outright rejects the idea of objective reality.
Very Post Modern.

But the only way to “return” to his magical existence would involve unmaking the physical world we live in of course, and as he explicitly states.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:14 pm**

Novus America wrote:
Zordennox wrote:
No, Dugin's plan is not to unmake reality, but to return to a previous, sacred existence. Dugin rejects the relativism and nihilism of modernity. This does not make him a nihilist for opposing nihilism.

Well Dugin outright rejects the idea of objective reality.
Very Post Modern.

But the only way to “return” to his magical existence would involve unmaking the physical world we live in of course, and as he explicitly states.

In what sense, though? If he means return to a more communal, spiritual existence, and reject Modernity with its materialism and hedonism, isn't that in a sense, "unmaking the physical world" -at least as we've come to see it today? As in, undoing the modern, materialistic, reductionist view of the World and the Cosmos.

You're choosing the most literal meaning to interpret what he's saying. You're forgetting he's also into the esoteric and the philosophical; which means his works are probably heavy laden with metaphors and symbols.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:19 pm**

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well Dugin outright rejects the idea of objective reality.
Very Post Modern.

But the only way to “return” to his magical existence would involve unmaking the physical world we live in of course, and as he explicitly states.

In what sense, though? If he means return to a more communal, spiritual existence, and reject Modernity with its materialism and hedonism, isn't that in a sense, "unmaking the physical world" -at least as we've come to see it today? As in, undoing the modern, materialistic, reductionist view of the World and the Cosmos.

You're choosing the most literal meaning to interpret what he's saying. You're forgetting he's also into the esoteric and the philosophical; which means his works are probably heavy laden with metaphors and symbols.

If we're to discuss various manners of philosophical and political writing, I must disclose (in a statement that will likely be unsurprising to most of the regulars of this thread) that I prefer precise legalese and technical language to figures of speech and esoteric symbolism.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:20 pm**

Zordennox wrote:I have some reading suggestions that might be good to add onto this thread, Old Tyrannia.

Revolt Against the Modern World, Julius Evola
https://www.amazon.com/Revolt-Against-M ... 089281506X

Political Theology, Carl Schmitt
https://www.amazon.com/Political-Theolo ... 0226738892

Ethnos and Society, Aleksandr Dugin
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ethnos ... 1128075499

I've added the first two, but I didn't include Dugin on the grounds that he isn't widely influential, nor is his work by any means "accessible" to those new to political philosophy.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:20 pm**

Duhon wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Because I like actual traditions and not esoteric Hyperborean god-men teachings.

Look, a flaming turd is still a turd, Hana...

Yes, yes, a 2500 year old religious tradition which has developed theories about time, atomism, ethics, and psychology is the same thing as some New Age cultist who believes that reality is a figment of his imagination.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:20 pm**

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well Dugin outright rejects the idea of objective reality.
Very Post Modern.

But the only way to “return” to his magical existence would involve unmaking the physical world we live in of course, and as he explicitly states.

In what sense, though? If he means return to a more communal, spiritual existence, and reject Modernity with its materialism and hedonism, isn't that in a sense, "unmaking the physical world"?

It is a return to something that never happened.
A return to a magical society that never existed.
And again you are skipping over his open talk of dying to get there.

It is quite clear he means unmaking the actual physical world, which he rejects
"If we want to liberate ourselves from the West, it is needed to liberate ourselves from textbooks on physics and chemistry."

It is a rejection of physical reality entirely.

Honestly it would be good for us if Russia actually practiced that part.

I will take evil weapons made from chemistry and physics over Chaos magic.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:21 pm**

New poll?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:26 pm**

The New California Republic wrote:New poll?

Any suggestions?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:27 pm**

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Well Dugin outright rejects the idea of objective reality.
Very Post Modern.

But the only way to “return” to his magical existence would involve unmaking the physical world we live in of course, and as he explicitly states.

In what sense, though? If he means return to a more communal, spiritual existence, and reject Modernity with its materialism and hedonism, isn't that in a sense, "unmaking the physical world" -at least as we've come to see it today? As in, undoing the modern, materialistic, reductionist view of the World and the Cosmos.

You're choosing the most literal meaning to interpret what he's saying. You're forgetting he's also into the esoteric and the philosophical; which means his works are probably heavy laden with metaphors and symbols.

He literally says it is not a metaphor
“Thus the Fourth Political Theory may easily turn towards everything that preceded modernity in order to draw its inspiration.… When it returns, postmodernity (globalisation, postliberalism, and the post-industrial society) is easily recognized as ‘the kingdom of the Antichrist’ (or its counterparts in other religions — ‘Dajjal’ for Muslims, ‘Erev Rav’ for the Jews, and ‘Kali Yuga’ for Hindus, and so forth). This is not simply a metaphor capable of mobilising the masses, but a religious fact — the fact of the Apocalypse.”

It is a literal rejection of reality
“What is the manifestation of the Fourth Political Practice? It is a principle to be revealed. In what aspect is the myth realised as ritual? It becomes theurgic fact (let us recognise that Neoplatonic theurgy is the reanimation of statues). What is activity as mentality? It is the idea that thoughts are magic, that thoughts can change reality; it is the suggestion that thoughts replace reality as fact.”

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:27 pm**

Hanafuridake wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Look, a flaming turd is still a turd, Hana...

Yes, yes, a 2500 year old religious tradition which has developed theories about time, atomism, ethics, and psychology is the same thing as some New Age cultist who believes that reality is a figment of his imagination.

... actually, I made that post to refer to Dugin's whatchamacaliit, but I can't remember for what, precisely. Definitely not talking about the "actual traditions", no.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:43 pm**

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:New poll?

Any suggestions?

Which system of Government most represents your views?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:46 pm**

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:Any suggestions?

Which system of Government most represents your views?

That's much too broad a question, and we've had similar polls before.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:49 pm**

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:Which system of Government most represents your views?

That's much too broad a question, and we've had similar polls before.

Most tolerable leftist theorist/state?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:51 pm**

Valrifell wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:That's much too broad a question, and we've had similar polls before.

Most tolerable leftist theorist/state?

I'm pretty sure we've had similar questions to those before, as well.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 12:54 pm**

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
Most tolerable leftist theorist/state?

I'm pretty sure we've had similar questions to those before, as well.

We've had 16 threads lol, there's not a lot of new ideas we can come up with.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:00 pm**

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:New poll?

Any suggestions?

Favourite RW author?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:08 pm**

Novus America wrote:
Nea Byzantia wrote:In what sense, though? If he means return to a more communal, spiritual existence, and reject Modernity with its materialism and hedonism, isn't that in a sense, "unmaking the physical world" -at least as we've come to see it today? As in, undoing the modern, materialistic, reductionist view of the World and the Cosmos.

You're choosing the most literal meaning to interpret what he's saying. You're forgetting he's also into the esoteric and the philosophical; which means his works are probably heavy laden with metaphors and symbols.

He literally says it is not a metaphor
“Thus the Fourth Political Theory may easily turn towards everything that preceded modernity in order to draw its inspiration.… When it returns, postmodernity (globalisation, postliberalism, and the post-industrial society) is easily recognized as ‘the kingdom of the Antichrist’ (or its counterparts in other religions — ‘Dajjal’ for Muslims, ‘Erev Rav’ for the Jews, and ‘Kali Yuga’ for Hindus, and so forth). This is not simply a metaphor capable of mobilising the masses, but a religious fact — the fact of the Apocalypse.”

It is a literal rejection of reality
“What is the manifestation of the Fourth Political Practice? It is a principle to be revealed. In what aspect is the myth realised as ritual? It becomes theurgic fact (let us recognise that Neoplatonic theurgy is the reanimation of statues). What is activity as mentality? It is the idea that thoughts are magic, that thoughts can change reality; it is the suggestion that thoughts replace reality as fact.”

I'm not a duginist - but the aforementioned info does seem more like he just wants to destroy the current global order - not literal reality.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:16 pm**

Sometime on one of the incarnations of the RWDT, a poster linked an op-ed portraying Hitler as a racial anarchist. Despite the absurdity of the idea it was a good read nonetheless, but for clarification's sake who posted it? Also what other kooky political theories about dictators do you all have?

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 1:19 pm**

Novus America wrote:As far as Dugin goes he is the Russian version of L. Ron Hubbard really.

That's unfair to Hubbard since the man invented Scientology as a take that to psychiatry for not getting treatment.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 2:23 pm**

Benuty wrote:
Novus America wrote:As far as Dugin goes he is the Russian version of L. Ron Hubbard really.

That's unfair to Hubbard since the man invented Scientology as a take that to psychiatry for not getting treatment.

I thought he did it because someone bet him that he couldn't create a religion people would follow, and then he started denying it once he realized how profitable Scientology was.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 2:28 pm**

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Benuty wrote:That's unfair to Hubbard since the man invented Scientology as a take that to psychiatry for not getting treatment.

I thought he did it because someone bet him that he couldn't create a religion people would follow, and then he started denying it once he realized how profitable Scientology was.

George Lucas missed a trick. He should have turned Jediism into an actual religion. Mind you, he sold Star Wars to Disney for $4 billion, so he isn't short of cash.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2019 3:00 pm**

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Benuty wrote:That's unfair to Hubbard since the man invented Scientology as a take that to psychiatry for not getting treatment.

I thought he did it because someone bet him that he couldn't create a religion people would follow, and then he started denying it once he realized how profitable Scientology was.

L. Ron Hubbard wrote:Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion.

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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again