Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

An Islamic society is completely different from the modern west, just completely different in a much worse way.

In a much better way. Western amorality should be avoided like the plague.

Western society is much more moral, from where I'm standing.

[Totally Not OEP]

In a much better way. Western amorality should be avoided like the plague.

Western society is much more moral, from where I'm standing.

It was, once. Sadly, many of those men have passed on now, along with their nations and cultures.

[ECKU]

I'm with Cappuccina. Islamic society ftw!

[Cappuccina]

I'm with Cappuccina. Islamic society ftw!

Al-Emin?

In a much better way. Western amorality should be avoided like the plague.

Western society is much more moral, from where I'm standing.

Where are you standing?

[Nakena]

Western "morality" will kill humanity, IMHO. It has a tendency towards nihilist and hedonistic life that will rob mankind of a direction, a fulfilling raison d'etre that man craves.

I am not disagreeing.

While I agree that momentary lapses of faith can grow one's soul, that is only after a reconciliation in our relationship with God (swt) that such ventures can have any profound meaning.

It depends however which one. Not all have the best intentions for Mankind. Some just want a planet full of obedient drones. Unfortunatly those have been rather sucessfull.

The West has lost any interest in such a return, and thus any insight is wasted on frivolity and worldly pursuits.

Return to what? Drone like obedience and slave mentality? At least the current situation allows for better things to grow and prosper.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Where are you standing?

In Australia. I reckon it's pretty good here.

[Cappuccina]

Western "morality" will kill humanity, IMHO. It has a tendency towards nihilist and hedonistic life that will rob mankind of a direction, a fulfilling raison d'etre that man craves.

I am not disagreeing.

While I agree that momentary lapses of faith can grow one's soul, that is only after a reconciliation in our relationship with God (swt) that such ventures can have any profound meaning.

It depends however which one. Not all have the best intentions for Mankind. Some just want a planet full of obedient drones. Unfortunatly those have been rather sucessfull.

The West has lost any interest in such a return, and thus any insight is wasted on frivolity and worldly pursuits.

Return to what? Drone like obedience and slave mentality? At least the current situation allows for better things to grow and prosper.

A return to one's relationship with God (swt), there is no better growth than that in one's dialogue with the master of creation, that which is. Too many people see and care only for their material benefit, that is the nature of our short sighted so called morality in the modern world, the western world. Yet we wonder why their lives are empty, why there is a gapping hole.

[ECKU]

I'm with Cappuccina. Islamic society ftw!

Al-Emin?

*El-Amin, yes

[Nakena]

Too many people see and care only for their material benefit, that is the nature of our short sighted so called morality in the modern world, the western world. Yet we wonder why their lives are empty, why there is a gapping hole.

I agree with you on that actually. But it is the worst kneejerk decision out of desparation(?) to turn to literally the worst option that there is and become a mindless drone of an hostile power and fall to its seductive, widely available and comfy siren song of slavery.

Instead of facing the music and march through the wasteland despite all odds against one with seemingly no allies and hope around and a myriads of disappointments.

To keep up in this situation, and not give up that is true strength.

[Turbofolkia]

Western "morality" will kill humanity, IMHO. It has a tendency towards nihilist and hedonistic life that will rob mankind of a direction, a fulfilling raison d'etre that man craves.

I don't think there is such a thing as "Western morality". Not everywhere in the West is as individualistic and materialistic as the United States, for example (and I'm not saying that in a disparaging way at all). One could also argue that modern China is far more nihilistic and hedonistic than most places in the West.

[Hanafuridake]

You mention this a lot, but I can't see how destroying the self would be fulfilling or moral.

Isn't obliteration of the self considered one of the ultimate goals of Buddhism?

No, when asked point blank, the Buddha refused to answer the question on whether or not there was a self. If obliteration of the self was an ultimate goal in Buddhism, it would have been quite easy for the Buddha to state “There is a self, it's the cause of your suffering, and here's how to be rid of it.” but instead he simply pointed to things which were not-self.

“How do you construe thus, monks -- Are [body, feeling, mental processes, consciousness] constant or inconstant?”

“Inconstant, lord.”

“And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?”

“Stressful, lord.”

“And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'this is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?”

“No, lord.”

[Painisia]

Western "morality" will kill humanity, IMHO. It has a tendency towards nihilist and hedonistic life that will rob mankind of a direction, a fulfilling raison d'etre that man craves.

I don't think there is such a thing as "Western morality". Not everywhere in the West is as individualistic and materialistic as the United States, for example (and I'm not saying that in a disparaging way at all). One could also argue that modern China is far more nihilistic and hedonistic than most places in the West.

But isn't modern China`s nihilism and hedonism a result of the influence of Western Capitalism?

[Duhon]

To be replaced by religious amoralities. As in "anything that is objectively harmless yet outside religious strictures must be hounded to death".

What "objective" harmlessness are we referencing?

For just one example -- LGBTs.

[Turbofolkia]

I don't think there is such a thing as "Western morality". Not everywhere in the West is as individualistic and materialistic as the United States, for example (and I'm not saying that in a disparaging way at all). One could also argue that modern China is far more nihilistic and hedonistic than most places in the West.

But isn't modern China`s nihilism and hedonism a result of the influence of Western Capitalism?

I think it's more of a product of the Cultural Revolution.

[Nakena]

But isn't modern China`s nihilism and hedonism a result of the influence of Western Capitalism?

I think it's more of a product of the Cultural Revolution.

Yes. Communism (and perhaps other totalitarian systems) have the tendency to destroy the society where it is placed onto by caving it out and leaving hollowness. Sometimes that only becomes only apparent when the system collapses, that theres not really a society anymore below under it. In the worst case you get a 1990s russian tier desaster.

[Novus America]

I don't think there is such a thing as "Western morality". Not everywhere in the West is as individualistic and materialistic as the United States, for example (and I'm not saying that in a disparaging way at all). One could also argue that modern China is far more nihilistic and hedonistic than most places in the West.

But isn't modern China`s nihilism and hedonism a result of the influence of Western Capitalism?

Not really. It is the fruits of Marxism. Marxism is not nihilistic but is hyper materialistic. It creates God/gods in favor of a belief in materialism (but with a religious like devotion). It also rejects traditional society, seeks to tear the whole thing down.

Of course Marxism focuses on the redistribution of wealth to all in the promise it will bring wealth to everyone.

But when it’s economic system comes crashing down (as it always does) there is nothing left.
Religion and traditional beliefs gone, and the material system that replaced and destroyed them gone to.

Marxism is great at destroying. Then it destroys itself after destroying everything else,

[Imperium Romanum Sanctis]

Isn't obliteration of the self considered one of the ultimate goals of Buddhism?

No, when asked point blank, the Buddha refused to answer the question on whether or not there was a self. If obliteration of the self was an ultimate goal in Buddhism, it would have been quite easy for the Buddha to state “There is a self, it's the cause of your suffering, and here's how to be rid of it.” but instead he simply pointed to things which were not-self.

“How do you construe thus, monks -- Are [body, feeling, mental processes, consciousness] constant or inconstant?”

“Inconstant, lord.”

“And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?”

“Stressful, lord.”

“And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'this is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?”

“No, lord.”

That's a bit too narrow of an answer, especially for a concept as vague as Nirvana.

Truth be told, the only Buddhist tradition with an explicit concept of Nirvana is Pure Land Buddhism; wherein the end-goal is, for lack of a better comparison, to join Buddha Jesus in Buddhist Heaven.

Other traditions, like Theravada Buddhism, generally go for destruction of the self in literal terms (namely, stop reincarnating and essentially embrace oblivion); whereas Vajrayana and Mahayana Buddhism in general advocate buddhahood as the ultimate end-goal.

The only concept of Nirvana that all Buddhist sects seem to share is that it ultimately prevents oneself from reincarnating. Which, even then, is a fairly open-ended notion that's subject to its own exceptions (Mahayana Buddhism in particular tends to advocate that once someone attains buddhahood, they should begin reincarnating again to help others attain buddhahood).

[Imperium Romanum Sanctis]

But isn't modern China`s nihilism and hedonism a result of the influence of Western Capitalism?

Not really. It is the fruits of Marxism. Marxism is not nihilistic but is hyper materialistic. It creates rejects God/gods in favor of a belief in materialism (but with a religious like devotion).

Of course Marxism focuses on the redistribution of wealth to all in the promise it will bring wealth to everyone.

But when it’s eco system comes crashing down (as it always does) there is nothing left.
Religion and traditional beliefs gone, and the material system that replaced and destroyed them gone too.

Eh, while the Cultural Revolution certainly uprooted and destroyed China's cultural framework, I think it's worth noting that this isn't the fault of Maoism alone. It's exceedingly rare for a country to embrace Communism if there aren't major problems with its prior system and substantial national unrest. China in the centenary build-up to Mao was subject to humiliating military defeats, rampant drug abuse, economic decline, technological stagnation, warlordism and multiple revolutions. By the time Mao had kicked Chiang and the Kuomintang off of the mainland, the country's cultural and religious framework was already in tatters, and although he certainly ended up destroying what little remained, things were already in a total mess before he got his chance ruin things even further.

[Novus America]

Not really. It is the fruits of Marxism. Marxism is not nihilistic but is hyper materialistic. It creates rejects God/gods in favor of a belief in materialism (but with a religious like devotion).

Of course Marxism focuses on the redistribution of wealth to all in the promise it will bring wealth to everyone.

But when it’s eco system comes crashing down (as it always does) there is nothing left.
Religion and traditional beliefs gone, and the material system that replaced and destroyed them gone too.

Eh, while the Cultural Revolution certainly uprooted and destroyed China's cultural framework, I think it's worth noting that this isn't the fault of Maoism alone. It's exceedingly rare for a country to embrace Communism if there aren't major problems with its prior system and substantial national unrest. China in the centenary build-up to Mao was subject to humiliating military defeats, rampant drug abuse, economic decline, technological stagnation, warlordism and multiple revolutions. By the time Mao had kicked Chiang and the Kuomintang off of the mainland, the country's cultural and religious framework was already in tatters, and although he certainly ended up destroying what little remained, things were already in a total mess before he got his chance ruin things even further.

Fair enough. Marxism destroyed the pieces of an already collapsing society.

But without it some of the pieces could have been preserved and put back together.

[Imperium Romanum Sanctis]

Eh, while the Cultural Revolution certainly uprooted and destroyed China's cultural framework, I think it's worth noting that this isn't the fault of Maoism alone. It's exceedingly rare for a country to embrace Communism if there aren't major problems with its prior system and substantial national unrest. China in the centenary build-up to Mao was subject to humiliating military defeats, rampant drug abuse, economic decline, technological stagnation, warlordism and multiple revolutions. By the time Mao had kicked Chiang and the Kuomintang off of the mainland, the country's cultural and religious framework was already in tatters, and although he certainly ended up destroying what little remained, things were already in a total mess before he got his chance ruin things even further.

Fair enough. Marxism destroyed the pieces of an already collapsing society.

But without it some of the pieces could have been preserved and put back together.

Maybe, maybe not.

The only real alternative would have been the Kuomintang, and given the current state of Taiwan, I'm not inclined to say they'd have done much better.

China has never done anything in half-measures, and the madness of the mid-20th century isn't dissimilar from actions taken during the imperial era at various points in time. And at any rate, the traditions and beliefs of the past are gradually re-incorporating themselves into modern Chinese culture. Even the CPC isn't what it used to be, with genuine ideological Communism having more or less lived and died with Mao.

[Novus America]

It also means a joke.

Our society is built around individualism and profit. "Love" in a popular context is just another consumable.

Romantic love is quite individualistic in a way, At least,cin comparison to other motivators.

This is true. Romantic love (although it is not concept ever explained well, I am dubious as to if it has much meaning at all and is just an unsatisfactory attempt to name and combine other concepts) and familial obligations enforced by society are quite different, and often contradictory.

In a traditional Islamic society, society and your family tells you what you must and must not love, so individual romantic love is either crushed, or forced behind the scenes.

The funny thing is traditional Islamic society ends up even more superficial than Western society.
It is all a show, a sham. Behind the scenes people regularly break the rules with abandon, and unless you get caught by the government there are no consequences.
When you do things because you fear the government, not because you chose to do them, you are doing them from fear, not morality.

At least in Western society people can show their true faces and not be forced to always wear a mask (for women sometimes literally).

Morality cannot be forced by the government. When you fully try to merge the law and morality, law just consumes the morality and wears its remains like a creepy skin mask.

[Novus America]

Fair enough. Marxism destroyed the pieces of an already collapsing society.

But without it some of the pieces could have been preserved and put back together.

Maybe, maybe not.

The only real alternative would have been the Kuomintang, and given the current state of Taiwan, I'm not inclined to say they'd have done much better.

China has never done anything in half-measures, and the madness of the mid-20th century isn't dissimilar from actions taken during the imperial era at various points in time. And at any rate, the traditions and beliefs of the past are gradually re-incorporating themselves into modern Chinese culture. Even the CPC isn't what it used to be, with genuine ideological Communism having more or less lived and died with Mao.

Taiwan is definitely less nihilistic than the PRC.
Sure Communism is dead, but that is the point. Communism destroys everything else then self destructs.
The PRC superficially trying to restore a few Disneyfied aspects of older Chinese society (although only to use them as tools of social control) is not really doing much.
And a cult of personality is never healthy and inherently destructive to society.
Xi’s megalomania means Xi wants to become China. Where there is no China but Xi, and no China without Xi. Then he dies and what is left?

[Imperium Romanum Sanctis]

Maybe, maybe not.

The only real alternative would have been the Kuomintang, and given the current state of Taiwan, I'm not inclined to say they'd have done much better.

China has never done anything in half-measures, and the madness of the mid-20th century isn't dissimilar from actions taken during the imperial era at various points in time. And at any rate, the traditions and beliefs of the past are gradually re-incorporating themselves into modern Chinese culture. Even the CPC isn't what it used to be, with genuine ideological Communism having more or less lived and died with Mao.

Taiwan is definitely less nihilistic than the PRC.
Sure Communism is dead, but that is the point. Communism destroys everything else then self destructs.
The PRC superficially trying to restore a few Disneyfied aspects of older Chinese society (although only to use them as tools of social control) is not really doing much.
And a cult of personality is never healthy and inherently destructive to society.
Xi’s megalomania means Xi wants to become China. Where there is no China but Xi, and no China without Xi. Then he dies and what is left?

Ignoring Taiwan for the moment, I think you fundamentally misunderstand Chinese culture.

It is naturally intensely communal and subject to authoritarianism. The government of the day using culture and religion as tools of social control is by no means unique to the CPC, and was used by emperors since time immemorial. Heck, there's even a millennia-old Chinese religion (Confucianism) geared towards that specific goal, and was the governing ethos of China's bureaucrats for the vast majority of the country's history.

As for cults of personality, yeah, China's resident Pooh bear is in love with himself, but so is every General Secretary, Chairman and President of the People's Republic since Mao. And frankly, so was Chiang, as well as most of China's leaders since the Xia Dynasty.

[Hakons]

Morality cannot be forced by the government. When you fully try to merge the law and morality, law just consumes the morality and wears its remains like a creepy skin mask.

Law is morality. When a society sees something as so morally wrong that the force of government aught to be brought against it, a law is made against it. Law codes aren't some magic neutral rules to society, they are influenced by morality and are in themselves the bare minimum morality.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Fair enough. Marxism destroyed the pieces of an already collapsing society.

But without it some of the pieces could have been preserved and put back together.

Maybe, maybe not.

The only real alternative would have been the Kuomintang, and given the current state of Taiwan, I'm not inclined to say they'd have done much better.

China has never done anything in half-measures, and the madness of the mid-20th century isn't dissimilar from actions taken during the imperial era at various points in time. And at any rate, the traditions and beliefs of the past are gradually re-incorporating themselves into modern Chinese culture. Even the CPC isn't what it used to be, with genuine ideological Communism having more or less lived and died with Mao.

What's wrong with Taiwan? I'd say it's doing rather well for itself considering its circumstances.