Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Nea Byzantia]

Ahmadis are pacifist iirc, and salafists are basically Islamic Puritans with a penchant for violence.

Yeah, we forbid jihad to be waged against governments that dont oppress muslims and since we have the ability to migrate to countries that allow us to practice our beliefs.

Not all salafists are violent but they do have strict views.

So is it sort of like Conservative Islam (Salafist) vs Liberal Islam (Ahmadi) in a way...

[Jolthig]

Yeah, we forbid jihad to be waged against governments that dont oppress muslims and since we have the ability to migrate to countries that allow us to practice our beliefs.

Not all salafists are violent but they do have strict views.

So is it sort of like Conservative Islam (Salafist) vs Liberal Islam (Ahmadi) in a way...

Not liberal.

I personally dont like to use the term liberal to refer to Ahmadiyya since we are quite conservative. Just not on the level of salafists or twelver shiites. We simply follow the example of muhammad as he himself lived in a non muslim community and Ethiopia for a time allowed refugees to come there, also a non muslim nation and the muslims agreed to follow their laws.

[Salus Maior]

I feel like a lot of people don't know what Liberal really means.

[Nea Byzantia]

I feel like a lot of people don't know what Liberal really means.

That is probably true...I do realize I misused the word Liberal

[Jolthig]

I feel like a lot of people don't know what Liberal really means.

Right. It can mean many things in certain contexts.

Liberal can apply to libertarians and fiscal conservatives since they advocate for less restrictions in an economy.

Socially liberal people favor more human rights and freedom to do whatever they wish as long as it isnt harming other people.

I recall theres other definitions too but they're not off the top of my head

[Napkizemlja]

What's the difference between an ahmadi and a salafi?

Ahmadis are pacifist iirc, and salafists are basically Islamic Puritans with a penchant for violence.

Yes. It bemuses me whenever I see people like Bill Maher and other similar people say "Islam needs its own Reformation" considering that contemporary Islamic radicals are actually more akin to early Protestantism than anything else. With the complete rejection of traditional Islamic teachings in favor of literalism to denouncing traditional sources of Islamic authority. It's not a one for one equivalency, but it just shows that a lot of liberals don't really know what the Reformation was.

[Nea Byzantia]

Ahmadis are pacifist iirc, and salafists are basically Islamic Puritans with a penchant for violence.

Yes. It bemuses me whenever I see people like Bill Maher and other similar people say "Islam needs its own Reformation" considering that contemporary Islamic radicals are actually more akin to early Protestantism than anything else. With the complete rejection of traditional Islamic teachings in favor of literalism to denouncing traditional sources of Islamic authority. It's not a one for one equivalency, but it just shows that a lot of liberals don't really know what the Reformation was.

But the Liberals rightly connect the Reformation to the birth of their own ideology, ironically enough...

The Rise of Secularism, Atheism, and ultimately Liberalism can all trace its roots to the Reformation; and the reductionist, empiricist approach to matters of Theology which came out of it; Sola Scriptura is just the theological application of the reductionist, empiricist approach to things.

EDIT: And of course, if you wish, you could connect the Reformation to Scholasticism, which arose in the Westduring the Middle Ages; becoming especially fashionable in the Western Church after the split between the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches, in circa 1054 AD (The Great Schism as it is often called was a very long, gradual, slow-burning process, beginning in circa the mid 8th century and culminating in the 12th or 13th century).

[Nea Byzantia]

Bill Maher

Speaking of Bill Maher, hasn't his name come up in connection with the Epstein Scandal?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Yes. It bemuses me whenever I see people like Bill Maher and other similar people say "Islam needs its own Reformation" considering that contemporary Islamic radicals are actually more akin to early Protestantism than anything else. With the complete rejection of traditional Islamic teachings in favor of literalism to denouncing traditional sources of Islamic authority. It's not a one for one equivalency, but it just shows that a lot of liberals don't really know what the Reformation was.

But the Liberals rightly connect the Reformation to the birth of their own ideology, ironically enough...

The Rise of Secularism, Atheism, and ultimately Liberalism can all trace its roots to the Reformation; and the reductionist, empiricist approach to matters of Theology which came out of it; Sola Scriptura is just the theological application of the reductionist, empiricist approach to things.

EDIT: And of course, if you wish, you could connect the Reformation to Scholasticism, which arose in the Westduring the Middle Ages; becoming especially fashionable in the Western Church after the split between the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches, in circa 1054 AD (The Great Schism as it is often called was a very long, gradual, slow-burning process, beginning in circa the mid 8th century and culminating in the 12th or 13th century).

Are you sure liberalism, secularism and atheism were all results of the reformation? If so, how?

[Novus America]

Ahmadis are pacifist iirc, and salafists are basically Islamic Puritans with a penchant for violence.

Yes. It bemuses me whenever I see people like Bill Maher and other similar people say "Islam needs its own Reformation" considering that contemporary Islamic radicals are actually more akin to early Protestantism than anything else. With the complete rejection of traditional Islamic teachings in favor of literalism to denouncing traditional sources of Islamic authority. It's not a one for one equivalency, but it just shows that a lot of liberals don't really know what the Reformation was.

Yes, the Reformation for some 150 years actually made Christianity more extreme and violent.
It was only after the violence reached shocking levels that it actually turned to the Enlightenment.

For Islam to repeat the process the way Christianity did we would not see improvements in our lifetimes. On the contrary we would need an Islamic equivalent of the 30 Years War, a war so horrific and shocking that it seriously damages people’s faith enough to radically change it.

[Nea Byzantia]

Yes. It bemuses me whenever I see people like Bill Maher and other similar people say "Islam needs its own Reformation" considering that contemporary Islamic radicals are actually more akin to early Protestantism than anything else. With the complete rejection of traditional Islamic teachings in favor of literalism to denouncing traditional sources of Islamic authority. It's not a one for one equivalency, but it just shows that a lot of liberals don't really know what the Reformation was.

Yes, the Reformation for some 150 years actually made Christianity more extreme and violent.
It was only after the violence reached shocking levels that it actually turned to the Enlightenment.

For Islam to repeat the process the way Christianity did we would not see improvements in our lifetimes. On the contrary we would need an Islamic equivalent of the 30 Years War, a war so horrific and shocking that it seriously damages people’s faith enough to radically change it.

But Islam is not the same religion as Christianity, so the circumstances and possibly even the outcome would be very different.

[Novus America]

Yes, the Reformation for some 150 years actually made Christianity more extreme and violent.
It was only after the violence reached shocking levels that it actually turned to the Enlightenment.

For Islam to repeat the process the way Christianity did we would not see improvements in our lifetimes. On the contrary we would need an Islamic equivalent of the 30 Years War, a war so horrific and shocking that it seriously damages people’s faith enough to radically change it.

But Islam is not the same religion as Christianity, so the circumstances and possibly even the outcome would be very different.

Well sure, but this still shows the flaws of talking about a Reformation in Islam, as the Reformation actually made Christianity much worse for over a century, and only accidentally made it better via massive backlash to what it caused.

[Nea Byzantia]

But Islam is not the same religion as Christianity, so the circumstances and possibly even the outcome would be very different.

Well sure, but this still shows the flaws of talking about a Reformation in Islam, as the Reformation actually made Christianity much worse for over a century, and only accidental made it better via massive backlash to what it caused.

Fair enough.

[Hanafuridake]

Ironically fundamentalism tends to be a product of reformations. Sola scriptura is a Protestant idea instead of a Catholic one and Wahabhism is a relatively new denomination for instance.

[Novus America]

Ironically fundamentalism tends to be a product of reformations. Sola scriptura is a Protestant idea instead of a Catholic one and Wahabhism is a relatively new denomination for instance.

Puritanism and Wahhabism have a lot in common.

[Torrocca]

Even outside of that, they're protesting in front of schools, a bunch of angry adults waving around signs is an easy way to scare a child. Do you hate gays so much that intimidating schoolchildren is cool?

No. But I'm not in favour of having them indoctrinate kids into that kind of lifestyle, either...

Imagine believing that it's us perfidious gays that are trying to turn kids into fabulous, glittery mindslaves when Christian fundamentalists are still trying to force creationism into public school curriculums.

[Washington Resistance Army]

No. But I'm not in favour of having them indoctrinate kids into that kind of lifestyle, either...

Imagine believing that it's us perfidious gays that are trying to turn kids into fabulous, glittery mindslaves when Christian fundamentalists are still trying to force creationism into public school curriculums.

They're not mutually exclusive.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Imagine believing that it's us perfidious gays that are trying to turn kids into fabulous, glittery mindslaves when Christian fundamentalists are still trying to force creationism into public school curriculums.

They're not mutually exclusive.

What's not mutually exclusive?

[Torrocca]

Imagine believing that it's us perfidious gays that are trying to turn kids into fabulous, glittery mindslaves when Christian fundamentalists are still trying to force creationism into public school curriculums.

They're not mutually exclusive.

They're certainly not, but only one of them's actually trying to indoctrinate anyone, and it's not the LGBTQ+.

[Kowani]

Even outside of that, they're protesting in front of schools, a bunch of angry adults waving around signs is an easy way to scare a child. Do you hate gays so much that intimidating schoolchildren is cool?

No. But I'm not in favour of having them indoctrinate kids into that kind of lifestyle, either...

That’s not what’s going on, since it’s physically impossible.

[Washington Resistance Army]

They're not mutually exclusive.

They're certainly not, but only one of them's actually trying to indoctrinate anyone, and it's not the LGBTQ+.

Disagree. The education system is all about indoctrination, and it's skew in most areas towards liberalism and support of such things certainly fits the definition. You lot just happen to be better at pushing your agenda in the system than the fundies, which is equally parts sad and amusing.

[Torrocca]

They're certainly not, but only one of them's actually trying to indoctrinate anyone, and it's not the LGBTQ+.

Disagree. The education system is all about indoctrination, and it's skew in most areas towards liberalism and support of such things certainly fits the definition. You lot just happen to be better at pushing your agenda in the system than the fundies, which is equally parts sad and amusing.

I'm pretty sure teaching "tolerance" and "acceptance" toward people regardless of how they were born (which, ironically enough, Christianity preaches through the ol' "love thy neighbor" thing that I'm sure Neo Byzantia will respect and have a heel-turn toward accepting the LGBTQ+) doesn't fall under "indoctrination".

[Washington Resistance Army]

Disagree. The education system is all about indoctrination, and it's skew in most areas towards liberalism and support of such things certainly fits the definition. You lot just happen to be better at pushing your agenda in the system than the fundies, which is equally parts sad and amusing.

I'm pretty sure teaching "tolerance" and "acceptance" toward people regardless of how they were born (which, ironically enough, Christianity preaches through the ol' "love thy neighbor" thing that I'm sure Neo Byzantia will respect and have a heel-turn toward accepting the LGBTQ+) doesn't fall under "indoctrination".

It absolutely does. It just happens to be a form you agree with.

We actually just had a discussion on this just yesterday in a different thread I think.

[Torrocca]

I'm pretty sure teaching "tolerance" and "acceptance" toward people regardless of how they were born (which, ironically enough, Christianity preaches through the ol' "love thy neighbor" thing that I'm sure Neo Byzantia will respect and have a heel-turn toward accepting the LGBTQ+) doesn't fall under "indoctrination".

It absolutely does. It just happens to be a form you agree with.

We actually just had a discussion on this just yesterday in a different thread I think.

I'm pretty fuckin' sure it's not about teaching uncritical acceptance of things, which is what indoctrination actually is; not that there's a need to be critical of people being born who they are, in any case.

[Washington Resistance Army]

It absolutely does. It just happens to be a form you agree with.

We actually just had a discussion on this just yesterday in a different thread I think.

I'm pretty fuckin' sure it's not about teaching uncritical acceptance of things, which is what indoctrination actually is; not that there's a need to be critical of people being born who they are, in any case.

You're indoctrinating them to be tolerant, there's nothing wrong with admitting that.

Well, maybe there is for you cuz you're an anarchist and whatnot, but most people have no problems accepting and believing that children should be brought up learning their preferred ideas. Indoctrinating the next generation to hold your beliefs has been a thing forever.