Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[United Muscovite Nations]

Atheism has no unified expression. You have atheists that are nihilists, egoists, but you also have atheists who essentially follow the basic precepts of Christian behavior due to the influence of Christianity on Western thought.

Indeed, there is no shared dogma, rituals, or set of beliefs among atheists, except a rejection of the concept of God.

In many way, I'm closer to Angela Merkel (a Christian democrat) than to Joseph Stalin (authoritarian atheist).

Literally too, Angela is only a few km away usually

There's an interesting book on the subject, by Theologian David Bentley Hart. It goes by the unfortunate title of Atheist Delusions (the author didn't choose the title, his publisher did because they wanted it as a callout to Dawkins), but the book itself is about how modern Secular Humanism actually owes a great deal to Christian thought on universal human dignity.

[Senkaku]

"the church brutally murdered people for basically no reason in the past, so why not let it brutally execute some criminals now?"

Name one person killed for no reason without googling it.

I'll go with the one of Catholics in the church at Beziers when Simon de Montfort (I believe?) said "Burn them all, God will know his own"?

[Hanafuridake]

"the church brutally murdered people for basically no reason in the past, so why not let it brutally execute some criminals now?"

Name one person killed for no reason without googling it.

Giordano Bruno.

[Kowani]

I mean... yeah. It would be intellectually dishonest not to recognize the major contributions to western philosophy done by Christian (or in a broader sense, the Abrahamic faiths in general) philosophers in most fields of study. Even if one isn't a practitioner of Christianity (or even an Abrahamic faith), modern philosophers of ethics, metaphysics, epistemology, aesthetics, etc. owe a debt to the "giants" of the past that they now stand upon.

Which stems from Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates through Ibn Rushd.

Ah, I love it when my Contribution to history isn’t mass murder.

[Old Tyrannia]

He's definitely one of the "the gays are paedos and the paedos are gays" types.

Jan Hus.

I said without reason.

You think burning Jan Hus was justified? Even the church itself has admitted his execution was unjust.

How about Thomas Cranmer? He was burnt to death even after his recantation.

Jan Hus.

That was unfortunate.

It would have been unfortunate if Hus died after tripping down a flight of stairs and hitting his head. His actual death was not merely "unfortunate." It was the effort of a thoroughly corrupt and evil organisation to maintain its power by publicly killing those who dared question it in a cruel manner.

[Senkaku]

He's definitely one of the "the gays are paedos and the paedos are gays" types.

Jan Hus.

I said without reason.

Ah, changing what I said-- I said "basically no reason", and you said "no reason." People are always killed for a reason, whether it be that the murderer woke up feeling grumpy or the state thinks they're an ideological threat.

I really don't think it's controversial to suggest that the Church has killed many, many innocent people. They've had two thousand years to burn witches and sack cities, you're bound to have a few misses even with God guiding your sword or whatever in that amount of time.

[Domina Nostra Nova Terra]

Name one person killed for no reason without googling it.

I'll go with the one of Catholics in the church at Beziers when Simon de Montfort (I believe?) said "Burn them all, God will know his own"?

I'll agree with you there, it was Arnaud Amalric

However, it was during a time of war.

[Imperium Romanum Sanctis]

You know, defending the Christian religion in an increasingly secular society would probably be a fair bit easier if the Roman Catholic Church wasn't busy giving the Christian faith a bad name by protecting a massive international paedophile ring for decades.

Considering how the Church of England is probably the runner-up in this regard, you're really not one to judge.

[Domina Nostra Nova Terra]

I said without reason.

Ah, changing what I said-- I said "basically no reason", and you said "no reason." People are always killed for a reason, whether it be that the murderer woke up feeling grumpy or the state thinks they're an ideological threat.

I really don't think it's controversial to suggest that the Church has killed many, many innocent people. They've had two thousand years to burn witches and sack cities, you're bound to have a few misses even with God guiding your sword or whatever in that amount of time.

I agree there have been a lot of bad things done like the 4th Crusade.

My issue is with the idea is that church does it just because or it defines the Church as a whole.

I apologise for being uncharitable this is a touchy subject.

[Senkaku]

I'll go with the one of Catholics in the church at Beziers when Simon de Montfort (I believe?) said "Burn them all, God will know his own"?

I'll agree with you there, it was Arnaud Amalric

Well, you said not to Google it, but there's your innocents.

However, it was during a time of war.

...so were Katyn and My Lai. What's your point?

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

Indeed, there is no shared dogma, rituals, or set of beliefs among atheists, except a rejection of the concept of God.

In many way, I'm closer to Angela Merkel (a Christian democrat) than to Joseph Stalin (authoritarian atheist).

Literally too, Angela is only a few km away usually

There's an interesting book on the subject, by Theologian David Bentley Hart. It goes by the unfortunate title of Atheist Delusions (the author didn't choose the title, his publisher did because they wanted it as a callout to Dawkins), but the book itself is about how modern Secular Humanism actually owes a great deal to Christian thought on universal human dignity.

I mean, I'd argue that under most of the extant epistemic and metaphysical systems in modern philosophical discourse, the concept of universal human (Or would "sapient" work better? Maybe "sophont"? Ah, matters of semantics.) dignity holds up extremely well. At the very least (making a temporary concession to Kowani's worldview for the sake of argument) it is a useful concept on a societal level.

[Jolthig]

Indeed, there is no shared dogma, rituals, or set of beliefs among atheists, except a rejection of the concept of God.

In many way, I'm closer to Angela Merkel (a Christian democrat) than to Joseph Stalin (authoritarian atheist).

Literally too, Angela is only a few km away usually

There's an interesting book on the subject, by Theologian David Bentley Hart. It goes by the unfortunate title of Atheist Delusions (the author didn't choose the title, his publisher did because they wanted it as a callout to Dawkins), but the book itself is about how modern Secular Humanism actually owes a great deal to Christian thought on universal human dignity.

Which again, Dawkins calls himself a Christian atheist ironically lol

[Salus Maior]

It would have been unfortunate if Hus died after tripping down a flight of stairs and hitting his head. His actual death was not merely "unfortunate." It was the effort of a thoroughly corrupt and evil organisation to maintain its power by publicly killing those who dared question it in a cruel manner.

The Catholic Church isn't the only organization that exacted cruelty to maintain power. And I think the number of Catholic martyrs in Britain shows that.

[Conserative Morality]

There's an interesting book on the subject, by Theologian David Bentley Hart. It goes by the unfortunate title of Atheist Delusions (the author didn't choose the title, his publisher did because they wanted it as a callout to Dawkins), but the book itself is about how modern Secular Humanism actually owes a great deal to Christian thought on universal human dignity.

Which again, Dawkins calls himself a Christian atheist ironically lol

Does he? I always thought his assertions that he was a cultural Christian were quite serious.

[Senkaku]

Ah, changing what I said-- I said "basically no reason", and you said "no reason." People are always killed for a reason, whether it be that the murderer woke up feeling grumpy or the state thinks they're an ideological threat.

I really don't think it's controversial to suggest that the Church has killed many, many innocent people. They've had two thousand years to burn witches and sack cities, you're bound to have a few misses even with God guiding your sword or whatever in that amount of time.

I agree there have been a lot of bad things done like the 4th Crusade.

My issue is with the idea is that church does it just because or it defines the Church as a whole.

So your issue is... *checks notes*... that people's perceptions of the Church are colored by its history and decisions?

As for "doing it just because"-- to non-believers by myself, that's basically what we hear when you say things like "heresy" or whatever. I imagine an analog for you would be like when a communist talks about "revisionism" as their rationale for shooting someone. Brutality and fanaticism in service of a non-falsifiable belief system that we happen to... not believe in.

[Salus Maior]

Which again, Dawkins calls himself a Christian atheist ironically lol

Does he? I always thought his assertions that he was a cultural Christian were quite serious.

You changed your flag.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Which again, Dawkins calls himself a Christian atheist ironically lol

Does he? I always thought his assertions that he was a cultural Christian were quite serious.

I think he means that it's ironic that he calls himself that, not that he means it as a joke.

[Conserative Morality]

You changed your flag.

It happens, when the stars are right and I awake from my slumber.

[Hanafuridake]

Which again, Dawkins calls himself a Christian atheist ironically lol

Does he? I always thought his assertions that he was a cultural Christian were quite serious.

My brain can't handle your new flag change.

[Kowani]

You changed your flag.

It happens, when the stars are right and I awake from my slumber.

Well, at least it’s not Honklet.

[Domina Nostra Nova Terra]

I agree there have been a lot of bad things done like the 4th Crusade.

My issue is with the idea is that church does it just because or it defines the Church as a whole.

So your issue is... *checks notes*... that people's perceptions of the Church are colored by its history and decisions?

As for "doing it just because"-- to non-believers by myself, that's basically what we hear when you say things like "heresy" or whatever. I imagine an analog for you would be like when a communist talks about "revisionism" as their rationale for shooting someone. Brutality and fanaticism in service of a non-falsifiable belief system that we happen to... not believe in.

My point is that the Church should be defined by something that is a tiny part of its history. That massacre was one massacre committed by soldiers not even under the direct control of the church which is supposed to have been ordered by a Legate of the Pope with the evidence being something he was alleged to have said.

Heresy is something that is dealt with strictly because it undermines order nor was execution the primary method of dealing with it - not even close, most people walked free and unharmed from interrogations. The Communists did not have the same level of leniency at all when it came to their enemies. Thomas Madden's Heaven or Heresy series is a prefect examination of how the Church dealt with heresy in reality.

[Old Tyrannia]

You know, defending the Christian religion in an increasingly secular society would probably be a fair bit easier if the Roman Catholic Church wasn't busy giving the Christian faith a bad name by protecting a massive international paedophile ring for decades.

Considering how the Church of England is probably the runner-up in this regard, you're really not one to judge.

Admittedly we've been rocked by our own scandal in that area, but our hierarchy has dealt with it considerably more openly than our Roman counterparts. Up to the point that an almost certainly innocent deceased bishop was dragged through the mud as a result of the church's desire to demonstrate its contrition and commitment to reform on the matter.

It would have been unfortunate if Hus died after tripping down a flight of stairs and hitting his head. His actual death was not merely "unfortunate." It was the effort of a thoroughly corrupt and evil organisation to maintain its power by publicly killing those who dared question it in a cruel manner.

The Catholic Church isn't the only organization that exacted cruelty to maintain power. And I think the number of Catholic martyrs in Britain shows that.

Most Catholics executed in England were executed for high treason, not heresy. You can thank your pope for that; toleration of Catholics was never going to last long once the papacy published Regnans in Excelsis. Frankly, if I had been an English monarch in that period I would have been far more ruthless in repressing Catholicism. No Renaissance monarch was going to tolerate a religious minority whose leader had proclaimed it their religious duty to oppose and undermine said monarch on pain of excommunication.

[Farnhamia]

You know, defending the Christian religion in an increasingly secular society would probably be a fair bit easier if the Roman Catholic Church wasn't busy giving the Christian faith a bad name by protecting a massive international paedophile ring for decades.

i agree the lavender mafia and all its cronies need to be defrocked and burned at the stake.

*** Warned for trolling. ***

We don't call for the death of real people here. Not even in jest.

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

It happens, when the stars are right and I awake from my slumber.

Well, at least it’s not Honklet.

I concur; I have grown increasingly tired of Honkler. It's just... not a particularly interesting meme. 2/10 not dank enough.

[Jolthig]

Which again, Dawkins calls himself a Christian atheist ironically lol

Does he? I always thought his assertions that he was a cultural Christian were quite serious.

He said it in a video that I hardly remember lol.