Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Jolthig]

Although this is well known, America has way too much of an us vs. them mentality among both liberals and conservatives. Had a conversation with a conservative today, and his views were way too one sided though I told him I'm pragmatic on politics and I'm neither conservative nor liberal. If we get our minds thinking again, we wouldn't have this us vs. them mentality.

A side effect of the end of the Cold War. When we had the Soviet Union we could agree they were the common threat. We needed an external threat to unite us.

It was actually proposed we go to war with the British to prevent the Civil War, the idea was that if we were in common struggle against a common enemy we would be less likely to fight each other.

We at least have a new Cold War now, but unfortunately many are still in denial it exists, and would rather fight against the other Americans than defend America.

Yeah, I'm in agreement with trump despite all of his idiotic views, we need to be harder on China.

That's what I'm saying. They were fanatics of their faith. Since they viewed their emperor as a demigod, and the fascists of the Imperial Rule Assistance Association really took advantage of that. Almost as if they made the emperor their puppet.

Well the Emperor genuinely believed in what they were preaching. He was a weak man, but he was definitely culpable.

Yep. But MacArthur kept him for fear of destabilizing Japan. At least the emperor changed his ways; doesnt excuse him for his war crimes.

[Jolthig]

We had communists among us trying to sabotage the first cold war too, you know.

We did.
But few people few much ideological affinity with the PRC directly.
Marxism, as deluded as it was, had a more universal appeal than “Xi Thought”.

Most the left in the US do not have an ideology in common, even if they believe the tech bro “free trade” BS. They do not want a brutal dictatorship that demands they worship some megalomaniac lunatic.

The tankies are few in number.

It is more a matter of ignorance and denial over outright malice.

Right. It's possible china is even funding those politicians to keep the ignorance up. China nearly owns us due to our free trade policies.

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

A side effect of the end of the Cold War. When we had the Soviet Union we could agree they were the common threat. We needed an external threat to unite us.

It was actually proposed we go to war with the British to prevent the Civil War, the idea was that if we were in common struggle against a common enemy we would be less likely to fight each other.

We at least have a new Cold War now, but unfortunately many are still in denial it exists, and would rather fight against the other Americans than defend America.

Yeah, I'm in agreement with trump despite all of his idiotic views, we need to be harder on China.

Well the Emperor genuinely believed in what they were preaching. He was a weak man, but he was definitely culpable.

Yep. But MacArthur kept him for fear of destabilizing Japan. At least the emperor changed his ways; doesnt excuse him for his war crimes.

China Gang, China Gang, China Gang, China Gang
China Gang, China Gang (China)
Spend ten bil' on a new wall (bing)
My hands are very small (woah)
I bomb a town, I forgot its name (boom)
I can't make a deal on no climate change (no)
Rather go and buy China (Ka-Ching!)
China Gang, China Gang, China Gang
China Gang, China Gang, China Gang, China Gang
China Gang, China Gang (China)
Spend ten bil' on a new wall (bing)
My hands are very small (woah)
I bomb a town, I forgot its name (boom)
I can't make a deal on no climate change (no)
Rather go and buy China (Ka-Ching!)
China Gang, China Gang, China Gang

My steak cost more than your rent (It do!)
Your mom still live in Iran (Believe me!)
Still be creatin' new jobs
Me and Ivanka play golf
All this news be fake to me (fake)
Never pay tax, I'm intelligent (smart)
Got a red tie, cost hella G's
Fuck Hilary, fuck the DNC
Bitch, your breath stink like e-mails (sniff)
I'd rather fuck a bitch that is in jail (oh, wait)
They kick me out my real estate
Now I kick Mexicans out the States
We'll make America great again
But the democrats always complain
Putin is my guy, I think he's pretty
Fuck a lil' bitch, grab 'em by the pussy

China Gang, China Gang, China Gang, China Gang
China Gang, China Gang (China)
Spend ten bil' on a new wall (bing)
My hands are very small (woah)
I bomb a town, I forgot its name (boom)
I can't make a deal on no climate change (no)
Rather go and buy China (Ka-Ching!)
China Gang, China Gang, China Gang
China Gang, China Gang, China Gang, China Gang
China Gang, China Gang (China)
Spend ten bil' on a new wall (bing)
My hands are very small (woah)
I bomb a town, I forgot its name (boom)
I can't make a deal on no climate change (no)
Rather go and buy China (Ka-Ching!)
China Gang, China Gang, China Gang

[Kowani]

If I may, why are you speaking of justice and mercy (in a manner suggesting that such concepts have value beyond the merely instrumental) if you hold such concepts to be secondary or tertiary concerns when compared to the maximization of self's pleasure? I must admit that it's kind of odd since, based on your conception of Pure Logic™, you've previously stated that it would be acceptable for someone to torture a young child if it maximized their personal pleasure. No offense intended, mate.

Hypocrisy.

[The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord]

If I may, why are you speaking of justice and mercy (in a manner suggesting that such concepts have value beyond the merely instrumental) if you hold such concepts to be secondary or tertiary concerns when compared to the maximization of self's pleasure? I must admit that it's kind of odd since, based on your conception of Pure Logic™, you've previously stated that it would be acceptable for someone to torture a young child if it maximized their personal pleasure. No offense intended, mate.

Hypocrisy.

I beg your pardon?

[Jolthig]

If I may, why are you speaking of justice and mercy (in a manner suggesting that such concepts have value beyond the merely instrumental) if you hold such concepts to be secondary or tertiary concerns when compared to the maximization of self's pleasure? I must admit that it's kind of odd since, based on your conception of Pure Logic™, you've previously stated that it would be acceptable for someone to torture a young child if it maximized their personal pleasure. No offense intended, mate.

Hypocrisy.

Sure, but appeal to hypocrisy is in itself a fallacy.

[Novus America]

We did.
But few people few much ideological affinity with the PRC directly.
Marxism, as deluded as it was, had a more universal appeal than “Xi Thought”.

Most the left in the US do not have an ideology in common, even if they believe the tech bro “free trade” BS. They do not want a brutal dictatorship that demands they worship some megalomaniac lunatic.

The tankies are few in number.

It is more a matter of ignorance and denial over outright malice.

Right. It's possible china is even funding those politicians to keep the ignorance up. China nearly owns us due to our free trade policies.

Oh the absolutely are. Their tentacles are everywhere. Their “Confucian Institutes” (Ironic considering how the CCP destroyed Chinese culture) fund our schools, in exchange for them shutting down criticism.
They bribe (sorry “Lobby”) our politicians.
The also have the Tech Bros to lobby for them.

[Kowani]

Hypocrisy.

I beg your pardon?

One cannot claim to be the arbiter of all morality, a perfect being above all, while simultaneously breaking one’s own rules.
And for Christians, those concepts do have values. I’m learning a technique from Jolt-arguing from the opponents’ point of view.

Hypocrisy.

Sure, but appeal to hypocrisy is in itself a fallacy.

Did you actually read my post?

[Jolthig]

Right. It's possible china is even funding those politicians to keep the ignorance up. China nearly owns us due to our free trade policies.

Oh the absolutely are. Their tentacles are everywhere. Their “Confucian Institutes” (Ironic considering how the CCP destroyed Chinese culture) fund our schools, in exchange for them shutting down criticism.
They bribe (sorry “Lobby”) our politicians.
The also have the Tech Bros to lobby for them.

In exchange for poor quality cheap stuff made by overworked people who just get a wage of $.80/hr.

[Novus America]

Oh the absolutely are. Their tentacles are everywhere. Their “Confucian Institutes” (Ironic considering how the CCP destroyed Chinese culture) fund our schools, in exchange for them shutting down criticism.
They bribe (sorry “Lobby”) our politicians.
The also have the Tech Bros to lobby for them.

In exchange for poor quality cheap stuff made by overworked people who just get a wage of $.80/hr.

The sticker price is low but the stuff is not cheap.
Unfortunately sticker price and the real price are very different.
If the real price was on the sticker nobody would buy any of their things.
If it said “this item costs 1 dollar now, but thousands in lost wages, wealth inequality, loss of national security and sovereignty, labor abuse, environmental destruction...” and made them pay the true price, nobody will buy.

Which is why we should make the sticker price much closer to the true price.

[Kowani]

In exchange for poor quality cheap stuff made by overworked people who just get a wage of $.80/hr.

The sticker price is low but the stuff is not cheap.
Unfortunately sticker price and the real price are very different.
If the real price was on the sticker nobody would buy any of their things.
If it said “this item costs 1 dollar now, but thousands in lost wages, wealth inequality, loss of national security and sovereignty, labor abuse, environmental destruction...” and made them pay the true price, nobody will buy.

Which is why we should make the sticker price much closer to the true price.

I think that’d be a bit hard to fit on the box…

[Diopolis]

In exchange for poor quality cheap stuff made by overworked people who just get a wage of $.80/hr.

The sticker price is low but the stuff is not cheap.
Unfortunately sticker price and the real price are very different.
If the real price was on the sticker nobody would buy any of their things.
If it said “this item costs 1 dollar now, but thousands in lost wages, wealth inequality, loss of national security and sovereignty, labor abuse, environmental destruction...” and made them pay the true price, nobody will buy.

Which is why we should make the sticker price much closer to the true price.

Not to mention their using currency manipulation to make the sticker price artificially low.

[Jolthig]

In exchange for poor quality cheap stuff made by overworked people who just get a wage of $.80/hr.

The sticker price is low but the stuff is not cheap.
Unfortunately sticker price and the real price are very different.
If the real price was on the sticker nobody would buy any of their things.
If it said “this item costs 1 dollar now, but thousands in lost wages, wealth inequality, loss of national security and sovereignty, labor abuse, environmental destruction...” and made them pay the true price, nobody will buy.

Which is why we should make the sticker price much closer to the true price.

On top of that, the increased tariffs we have with china now.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Personally I would be more depressed if Christianity turned out to be true than atheism. A lot of people I love would suffer in eternal torment because they weren't believers

You wouldn't be mourning over their punishment though. You wouldn't really care about them actually.

I would be trapped in a one-sided afterlife for all eternity with no room for change

Why would you want to change? You're in Jannah and can get any you ask for.

and perhaps most strikingly to the imagination argument, this elaborate cosmos with one hundred billion galaxies and other wondrous phenomenon only exists because God wants people to make a simple decision.

Yes, this is true.

I disagree, trust in God is the most trustworthy thing to possess, i.e. Faith. Your underlying assumption is that reason and faith are contradictory or mutually exclusive, that to be reasonable you must forego faith, and to be pious you must forego reason. Human reason is fallen, as a consequence of the Fall, though not entirely corrupt of course because we may ascertain truthes by reason, and so human knowledge solely devoted to reason is defective, incomplete.

Truth is contingent on God, there is no Truth without God, and further God is Truth.

Faith and reason are not entirely mutually exclusive, but they're not completely analagous either, and in areas where reason and faith contradict, I'm inclined to side with reason.

How is truth contingient on God? How is God truth?

Because He never lies.

“Justice”
An eternity of torment, for temporary crimes.

Usually, yes.

Tortured beyond the end of the universe, for crimes that were physically impossible to avoid committing.

This is false

That is not justice, that is tyranny and irrationality, dressed up in the rhetoric of a god.

Says who?

Decide? Yeah, that’s fair to the millions of people who died never having heard of God. If saving souls is God’s mission, then he’s an absolute failure.

Christians and Muslims multiple times have told you that Allah SWT doesn't punish people for not hearing of Him.

Impossible, not with Free Will. Millions of souls, together for eternity? Personality would not disappear into the abyss in heaven-or perhaps that is the nature of it all, which leads one to ask-which one is truly hell?

What do you mean?

Ask the Midianites of divine mercy. Ask the souls in hell of divine mercy, and they shall laugh in your face. Ask every child, whose mother died in childbirth of Godly compassion. Ask the millions of species that existed just to die what they think of your God, and you shall receive a markedly different answer.

I have CCHS and my parents are divorced. I still believe in the RaHma (mercy) of Allah SWT. Bad stuff happening in people's lives doesn't negate the raHma of Allah SWT.

What cosmic arrogance.

I really don't think you have much place to say that.

[Kowani]

Personally I would be more depressed if Christianity turned out to be true than atheism. A lot of people I love would suffer in eternal torment because they weren't believers

You wouldn't be mourning over their punishment though. You wouldn't really care about them actually.

I am not Hana, but I am sure that that is not true-and if it is, horrific.

I disagree, trust in God is the most trustworthy thing to possess, i.e. Faith. Your underlying assumption is that reason and faith are contradictory or mutually exclusive, that to be reasonable you must forego faith, and to be pious you must forego reason. Human reason is fallen, as a consequence of the Fall, though not entirely corrupt of course because we may ascertain truthes by reason, and so human knowledge solely devoted to reason is defective, incomplete.

Truth is contingent on God, there is no Truth without God, and further God is Truth.

Faith and reason are not entirely mutually exclusive, but they're not completely analagous either, and in areas where reason and faith contradict, I'm inclined to side with reason.

How is truth contingient on God? How is God truth?

Because He never lies.[/quote]
Blatant lies.

“Justice”
An eternity of torment, for temporary crimes.

Usually, yes.

And you see nothing unjust in that?

Tortured beyond the end of the universe, for crimes that were physically impossible to avoid committing.

This is false

I was speaking of Christianity, not Islam, and in Christianity, it matters not if the sinner knows of God or not.

That is not justice, that is tyranny and irrationality, dressed up in the rhetoric of a god.

Says who?l

I hate this question.

Decide? Yeah, that’s fair to the millions of people who died never having heard of God. If saving souls is God’s mission, then he’s an absolute failure.

Christians and Muslims multiple times have told you that Allah SWT doesn't punish people for not hearing of Him.

No, OT specifically said that they do. Or rather, for sinning when they did not know it was a sin because they had not heard of God. If you were correct, there would be no reason to evangelize.

Impossible, not with Free Will. Millions of souls, together for eternity? Personality would not disappear into the abyss in heaven-or perhaps that is the nature of it all, which leads one to ask-which one is truly hell?[/question]
What do you mean?

A world of puppets, dancing forever on the strings of a God who does not care? Shackled to his will unto eternity, unchoosing of any action, facsimiles of humanity. If that is your heaven, if that is the divine plan for humanity, then your God is a totalitarian on a scale beyond any humanity could ever hope to emulate.

I have CCHS and my parents are divorced. I still believe in the RaHma (mercy) of Allah SWT. Bad stuff happening in people's lives doesn't negate the raHma of Allah SWT.

We shall not make this into a misery contest, for there are people on this forum with worse lives than either of us. But. Those groups of which I spoke? Those miseries, that suffering, those pains are directly the fault of God. And not in my usual architect of the universe logic, but through direct intervention.

I really don't think you have much place to say that.

I disagree.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I am not Hana, but I am sure that that is not true

In Al-Islam or Christianity?

Blatant lies.

No u

And you see nothing unjust in that?

Nope

I was speaking of Christianity, not Islam, and in Christianity, it matters not if the sinner knows of God or not.

Purgatory is a thing. It's not Jahannam.

No, OT specifically said that they do. Or rather, for sinning when they did not know it was a sin because they had not heard of God. If you were correct, there would be no reason to evangelize.

Where?

A world of puppets, dancing forever on the strings of a God who does not care?

If Allah SWT didn't care He wouldn't've guided us.

Shackled to his will unto eternity, unchoosing of any action, facsimiles of humanity.

What?

If that is your heaven, if that is the divine plan for humanity, then your God is a totalitarian on a scale beyond any humanity could ever hope to emulate.

Allah SWT is not 'my God'. I am His slave.

We shall not make this into a misery contest, for there are people on this forum with worse lives than either of us. But. Those groups of which I spoke? Those miseries, that suffering, those pains are directly the fault of God. And not in my usual architect of the universe logic, but through direct intervention.

You say that like Allah SWT deliberately made bad stuff happen to people - which actually does happen sometimes so nvm.

[Jolthig]

I am not Hana, but I am sure that that is not true

In Al-Islam or Christianity?

Blatant lies.

No u

And you see nothing unjust in that?

Nope

I was speaking of Christianity, not Islam, and in Christianity, it matters not if the sinner knows of God or not.

Purgatory is a thing. It's not Jahannam.

No, OT specifically said that they do. Or rather, for sinning when they did not know it was a sin because they had not heard of God. If you were correct, there would be no reason to evangelize.

Where?

A world of puppets, dancing forever on the strings of a God who does not care?

If Allah SWT didn't care He wouldn't've guided us.

Shackled to his will unto eternity, unchoosing of any action, facsimiles of humanity.

What?

If that is your heaven, if that is the divine plan for humanity, then your God is a totalitarian on a scale beyond any humanity could ever hope to emulate.

Allah SWT is not 'my God'. I am His slave.

We shall not make this into a misery contest, for there are people on this forum with worse lives than either of us. But. Those groups of which I spoke? Those miseries, that suffering, those pains are directly the fault of God. And not in my usual architect of the universe logic, but through direct intervention.

You say that like Allah SWT deliberately made bad stuff happen to people - which actually does happen sometimes so nvm.

Not all christian sects agree purgatory is a thing, and there is nothing the Bible from what I researched that supports such a doctrine

[United Muscovite Nations]

Nevertheless, the Byzantine Empire controlled the Papacy until the fall of the Exarchate to the Lombards in 751, and the Iconoclasts didn't control the Eastern Church, only the Church within the Byzantine Empire.

Except it did not. Gregory III and openly refused to obey the ERE Emperor, Leo III tried to enforce control by sending invasion fleet to attack Rome (it failed miserably).
He tried to enforce Iconoclasty on the West, just failed horribly.

The Western Church had already broken with the ERE Emperor before the Lombards won.

Leo III’s stupidity was a major cause if the break between the East and West.

It couldn't have been much of a cause because only one Eastern church was iconoclastic. Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria were all with Rome during the Iconoclastic years, but later joined Constantinople during the Great Schism. Moreover, Constantinople didn't even go with iconoclasm voluntarily, it was forced on them, and when Leo died, they fully embraced icons again, with an even greater fervor than in the West. The causes of the Great Schism have much more to do with Papal authority than any other theological issue. It was nearly 300 years after the iconoclastic schism, and 200 years after the Photian schism, that the Great Schism took place.

[Novus America]

Except it did not. Gregory III and openly refused to obey the ERE Emperor, Leo III tried to enforce control by sending invasion fleet to attack Rome (it failed miserably).
He tried to enforce Iconoclasty on the West, just failed horribly.

The Western Church had already broken with the ERE Emperor before the Lombards won.

Leo III’s stupidity was a major cause if the break between the East and West.

It couldn't have been much of a cause because only one Eastern church was iconoclastic. Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria were all with Rome during the Iconoclastic years, but later joined Constantinople during the Great Schism. Moreover, Constantinople didn't even go with iconoclasm voluntarily, it was forced on them, and when Leo died, they fully embraced icons again, with an even greater fervor than in the West. The causes of the Great Schism have much more to do with Papal authority than any other theological issue. It was nearly 300 years after the iconoclastic schism, and 200 years after the Photian schism, that the Great Schism took place.

Leo III tried to impose it on the West, literally by force, and tried to seize Western Church property when the West refused to comply. That naturally did not go well very well in the West.

Yes Papal authority was a big part, Leo trying to enforce things on the Western Pope a major part.
Again the Great Schism was not one event, but a culmination of things going back centuries.
Leo III played a major role in ensuring the West no longer could trust the Eastern Emperor.

Also it did not die with Leo III, Constantine V continued the anti West policies of his predecessor.

[Kowani]

I am not Hana, but I am sure that that is not true

In Al-Islam or Christianity?

Lets go with Hana as a person.

Blatant lies.

No u

Should I pull up a list of every lie in the Qu’ran? Or the Bible, which one would you prefer?

And you see nothing unjust in that?

Nope

A question. If I steal something, should I get a life sentence?

I was speaking of Christianity, not Islam, and in Christianity, it matters not if the sinner knows of God or not.

Purgatory is a thing. It's not Jahannam.

Not all Christians believe in purgatory-and that’s still thousands of years of purgatory for being born too early.

No, OT specifically said that they do. Or rather, for sinning when they did not know it was a sin because they had not heard of God. If you were correct, there would be no reason to evangelize.

Where?

So, how about those who were born before Christ?

The righteous dead who perished before the crucifixion were saved by the harrowing of Hell.

Ignoring the millions of innocents who would have suffered until Christ was born for a second, what about the unrighteous dead?

They suffer the fate of all unrepentant sinners.

A world of puppets, dancing forever on the strings of a God who does not care?

If Allah SWT didn't care He wouldn't've guided us.

Considering he guides us into an eternity of nothingness and literal slavery, you’re not wrong-but the conclusion is not one you would like.

Shackled to his will unto eternity, unchoosing of any action, facsimiles of humanity.

What?

Rhetoric to express eternity without Free Will.

If that is your heaven, if that is the divine plan for humanity, then your God is a totalitarian on a scale beyond any humanity could ever hope to emulate.

Allah SWT is not 'my God'. I am His slave.

I’m gonna ignore the semantics for a moment, and point out that you are not his slave. You are his servant, which is not the same thing.

We shall not make this into a misery contest, for there are people on this forum with worse lives than either of us. But. Those groups of which I spoke? Those miseries, that suffering, those pains are directly the fault of God. And not in my usual architect of the universe logic, but through direct intervention.

You say that like Allah SWT deliberately made bad stuff happen to people - which actually does happen sometimes so nvm.

Of those cases which I spoke? He is the architect of them. And in one of those cases, (two of them in Christianity), it was not to “test us.”

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

[Northern Davincia]

In Al-Islam or Christianity?

No u

Nope

Purgatory is a thing. It's not Jahannam.

Where?

If Allah SWT didn't care He wouldn't've guided us.

What?

Allah SWT is not 'my God'. I am His slave.

You say that like Allah SWT deliberately made bad stuff happen to people - which actually does happen sometimes so nvm.

Not all christian sects agree purgatory is a thing, and there is nothing the Bible from what I researched that supports such a doctrine

The doctrine comes from prayers dedicated to the dead. Those in Heaven do not need our prayers, and those in Hell do not need them either. Ergo, there must be a Purgatory in which our prayers have impact.

[Kowani]

Not all christian sects agree purgatory is a thing, and there is nothing the Bible from what I researched that supports such a doctrine

The doctrine comes from prayers dedicated to the dead. Those in Heaven do not need our prayers, and those in Hell do not need them either. Ergo, there must be a Purgatory in which our prayers have impact.

Prayers are not for the deaf. They are for the living.

[Diopolis]

The doctrine comes from prayers dedicated to the dead. Those in Heaven do not need our prayers, and those in Hell do not need them either. Ergo, there must be a Purgatory in which our prayers have impact.

Prayers are not for the deaf. They are for the living.

Why? Those in purgatory have the most need for our prayers- the damned can gain no benefit, the church triumphant can have no improvement in their situation, and the militant can help themselves in a way that the suffering in purgatory cannot.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Should I pull up a list of every lie in the Qu’ran? Or the Bible, which one would you prefer?

Mostly the Holy Qur'an, but there aren't any lies in it. If you show the Bible the Chrsitians will refute said lies.

A question. If I steal something, should I get a life sentence?

No, you should get your hand cut off. But you're not Muslim so that doesn't apply.

Considering he guides us into an eternity of nothingness and literal slavery

No religion that teaches an afterlife says this.

I’m gonna ignore the semantics for a moment, and point out that you are not his slave. You are his servant, which is not the same thing.

It is in Al-Islam. "عَبْد/'Abd" translates to either "slave" or "servant",so it doesn't really matter which one I use, it conveys the same meaning.

Of those cases which I spoke? He is the architect of them.

Not necessarily. The last thing you said, about the mother dying during childbirth, isn't necessarily because Allah SWT actively ended her life.

And in one of those cases, (two of them in Christianity), it was not to “test us.”

Well yeah, the previous 2 are punishments.

[Northern Davincia]

The doctrine comes from prayers dedicated to the dead. Those in Heaven do not need our prayers, and those in Hell do not need them either. Ergo, there must be a Purgatory in which our prayers have impact.

Prayers are not for the deaf. They are for the living.

2 Maccabees 12:46 makes it clear that the dead can be saved in some capacity. Purgatory is the only reasonable conclusion when compared to the rest of scripture.