Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Jolthig]

Yeah, to degrade the quality of Spain in terms of educational standards (unless if proven wrong). Heck, the Umayyads in Spain produced some fine philosophers like Ibn Rushd who helped inspire the Renaissance.

So what makes the Inquisition not as bad as people make it out to be?

And ok, we both agree religious cleansing isn't good.

Averroes, Maimonides, all Andalusian philosophers at work. You’re all welcome.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'm not aware this became an Islamic history discussion. I thought we were just talikng abiut the law.

It was good while it lasted tho....in most instances anyway
Man it'd be great if Muslim rule could return to Al-Andalus.

We're not just talking about the abstract idealized view of Islamic law which exists in your head.

It also exists in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.
Anyways, I was more referring to Muslim rule returning and ruling according to the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, not ruling according to history.

[Salus Maior]

I think reconquering Spain was absolutely justified. And while the Inquisition was not nearly as bad as many make it out to be, I'm not going to call a religious cleansing a good thing.

Yeah, to degrade the quality of Spain in terms of educational standards (unless if proven wrong). Heck, the Umayyads in Spain produced some fine philosophers like Ibn Rushd who helped inspire the Renaissance.

So what makes the Inquisition not as bad as people make it out to be?

And ok, we both agree religious cleansing isn't good.

Spain (and Medieval Christian Europe as a whole) was not some kind of Dark Ages backwater. Most of that kind of thinking is based on skewed views and preconceived notions on the Middle Ages which don't stand up to actual study (in fact, most professionals in the field outright reject the term "Dark Ages").

Culture, the arts, and technological development were all advancing in Europe unstalled, and indeed the Church was the hub of education at the time (and indeed, the Muslim world was not the home of unrepressed scientific exploration and advancement either, if you've ever looked into how the Mu'tazila were treated).

The Inquisition was far more fairer than things like local law enforcement at the time (which really had no standard rules as far as I'm aware). The Inquisition informed suspects with at least 30 days notice in order for them to be able to create a defense for themselves, and they did not execute nor torture nearly as many people as common culture would suggest (most of which is Protestant English propaganda).

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Says who?

Imam Rizwan Khan's article that I showed when I announced my change of views a couple weeks ago

Akhi you messed up the banter lol

[Hanafuridake]

We're not just talking about the abstract idealized view of Islamic law which exists in your head.

It also exists in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.
Anyways, I was more referring to Muslim rule returning and ruling according to the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, not ruling according to history.

Explain why that would be a good thing. Why do you feel the need to make non-believers acknowledge your leaders as their ruler?

[North German Realm]

Says who?

Imam Rizwan Khan's article that I showed when I announced my change of views a couple weeks ago

Historically speaking, it has been significantly higher than "any other tax", and has always been used as a coercive measure to force non-Muslims to convert. This really isn't a mystery or a secret.

Compared with Zakat, no it wasn't. And no, it did not force non-Muslims to convert, but it did however make them acknowledge that the Muslims were the new rulers of the land.

No, it was literally the second main reason why Persian, Copts, and many others in the Middle East became Muslims. (The first and most important, of course, was something along the lines of "Will you spare my family if we become Muslims?", especially earlier in the Two Centuries of Silence)

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yeah, to degrade the quality of Spain in terms of educational standards (unless if proven wrong). Heck, the Umayyads in Spain produced some fine philosophers like Ibn Rushd who helped inspire the Renaissance.

So what makes the Inquisition not as bad as people make it out to be?

And ok, we both agree religious cleansing isn't good.

Averroes, Maimonides, all Andalusian philosophers at work. You’re all welcome.

>"Averroes"
Wat is this Latinized crap, smh. It's Ibn Rushd, people!

[Washington Resistance Army]

Historically speaking, it has been significantly higher than "any other tax", and has always been used as a coercive measure to force non-Muslims to convert. This really isn't a mystery or a secret.

Compared with Zakat, no it wasn't. And no, it did not force non-Muslims to convert, but it did however make them acknowledge that the Muslims were the new rulers of the land.

It's absolutely false to claim it wasn't a tool used to make people convert. Practically every historian would tell you it was used that way by at least some rulers.

Shit even some Muslim theologians have claimed it's a tool to encourage conversion.

[Kowani]

Don’t ask me to understand religious fundamentalist mentality, ‘cause that’s not happening.

I did not. I attend a local public high school, since my father thought that I should get used to larger class sizes. My youngest brother, on the other hand… Mind you, my school is apparently pretty good (definitely better than my last one), and although I can’t speak to your last school, your culprits would be probably be lack of funding, CollegeBoard, and CommonCore.

Yeah same here. I take my faith very seriously but the fundamentalists keep on forgetting the context and the different genres within the Holy Bible which kind of warps their interpretations.

Ah gotcha, gotcha. As for my school it was one of the wealthiest school districts in the area, big pool and turfed sport fields in good condition and every student got a laptop. Newest technology and a bunch of connections. The city I live near to has the most money spent per student in the area but the dropout rate is incredibly high, high degrees of illiteracy, gang violence in the schools, and massive drug problem. The faith schools are pretty much the bastions of good education and discipline so I have a high approval rating and respect for them. Education is difficult and I'm getting my degree in it.

Ah. Damn. My school here is pretty wealthy, but it all goes to football and teacher’s salaries. Except I live in SoCal, so they still have to work side jobs. My school back in Spain had drug traffickers attending the schools, so this is an improvement. (Plus, the bathrooms have doors, that’s always nice.)

Depends on where you are. Andalucía just had chronic unemployment, poverty, bad infrastructure, drug trafficking, and other problems. So, Church has quite a bit of social impact.


Vaya idea más mi*rda tas tenío, tío.

Oi, yo sé qué estás diciendo

Lo sé, por eso te lo puse. Tienee suerte que no he etao tran’cribiendo el acento, va?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

It also exists in the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.
Anyways, I was more referring to Muslim rule returning and ruling according to the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah, not ruling according to history.

Explain why that would be a good thing. Why do you feel the need to make non-believers acknowledge your leaders as their ruler?

Um.......because that's literally how every state has preserved itself since the first state came into existence? If a significant part of the populace doesn't believe in the legitimacy of the state, rebellion occurs.

This seems like a common sense question, Hanafuridake.

[Conserative Morality]

Spain (and Medieval Christian Europe as a whole) was not some kind of Dark Ages backwater. Most of that kind of thinking is based on skewed views and preconceived notions on the Middle Ages which don't stand up to actual study (in fact, most professionals in the field outright reject the term "Dark Ages").

Culture, the arts, and technological development were all advancing in Europe unstalled, and indeed the Church was the hub of education at the time (and indeed, the Muslim world was not the home of unrepressed scientific exploration and advancement either, if you've ever looked into how the Mu'tazila were treated).

I must emphasize that the reason for moving away from the term "Dark Ages" is because of the implied bias and implication of a homogenous era, not because the period was not one of significant loss for European culture.

Carolingian Renaissance a best, tho.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yeah same here. I take my faith very seriously but the fundamentalists keep on forgetting the context and the different genres within the Holy Bible which kind of warps their interpretations.

Ah gotcha, gotcha. As for my school it was one of the wealthiest school districts in the area, big pool and turfed sport fields in good condition and every student got a laptop. Newest technology and a bunch of connections. The city I live near to has the most money spent per student in the area but the dropout rate is incredibly high, high degrees of illiteracy, gang violence in the schools, and massive drug problem. The faith schools are pretty much the bastions of good education and discipline so I have a high approval rating and respect for them. Education is difficult and I'm getting my degree in it.

Ah. Damn. My school here is pretty wealthy, but it all goes to football and teacher’s salaries. Except I live in SoCal, so they still have to work side jobs. My school back in Spain had drug traffickers attending the schools, so this is an improvement. (Plus, the bathrooms have doors, that’s always nice.)

Oi, yo sé qué estás diciendo

Lo sé, por eso te lo puse. Tienee suerte que no he etao tran’cribiendo el acento, va?

¿Qué significas?

Also, my school had drug dealers too (obvs not during school but you know), and my friend said that around 7 girls in my school got pregnant.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Spain (and Medieval Christian Europe as a whole) was not some kind of Dark Ages backwater. Most of that kind of thinking is based on skewed views and preconceived notions on the Middle Ages which don't stand up to actual study (in fact, most professionals in the field outright reject the term "Dark Ages").

Culture, the arts, and technological development were all advancing in Europe unstalled, and indeed the Church was the hub of education at the time (and indeed, the Muslim world was not the home of unrepressed scientific exploration and advancement either, if you've ever looked into how the Mu'tazila were treated).

I must emphasize that the reason for moving away from the term "Dark Ages" is because of the implied bias and implication of a homogenous era, not because the period was not one of significant loss for European culture.

Carolingian Renaissance a best, tho.

>liking the Franks

[Camelone]

I think reconquering Spain was absolutely justified. And while the Inquisition was not nearly as bad as many make it out to be, I'm not going to call a religious cleansing a good thing.

Yeah, to degrade the quality of Spain in terms of educational standards (unless if proven wrong). Heck, the Umayyads in Spain produced some fine philosophers like Ibn Rushd who helped inspire the Renaissance.

So what makes the Inquisition not as bad as people make it out to be?

And ok, we both agree religious cleansing isn't good.

That's more the result of conquest, kind of wrecks the infrastructure when there was decades if not centuries of warfare between two distinct groups. You also have to remember the Iberian Christians had the memory of the Gothic Christian kingdoms in their cultural memory so going through and retaking land their ancestors lost and that they spent so much time fighting for stuffs going to get messed up in the frenzy.

The Inquisition could only go after Christians, they had no jurisdiction on non-Christians because well they are not a part of the Church. Also compared to the secular courts the Inquisition was much more lenient and kinder, most of the time they would just ask the person to repent and let them go afterwards. They also did not have the power of sentencing they could only find someone guilty or not so someone would not be guilty if they repented and asked forgiveness but if they did not they were guilty and handed over to the secular authorities who would do the sentencing.

Yeah same here. I take my faith very seriously but the fundamentalists keep on forgetting the context and the different genres within the Holy Bible which kind of warps their interpretations.

Ah gotcha, gotcha. As for my school it was one of the wealthiest school districts in the area, big pool and turfed sport fields in good condition and every student got a laptop. Newest technology and a bunch of connections. The city I live near to has the most money spent per student in the area but the dropout rate is incredibly high, high degrees of illiteracy, gang violence in the schools, and massive drug problem. The faith schools are pretty much the bastions of good education and discipline so I have a high approval rating and respect for them. Education is difficult and I'm getting my degree in it.

Ah. Damn. My school here is pretty wealthy, but it all goes to football and teacher’s salaries. Except I live in SoCal, so they still have to work side jobs. My school back in Spain had drug traffickers attending the schools, so this is an improvement. (Plus, the bathrooms have doors, that’s always nice.)

Yeah you can probably see why I have been so disillusioned with the modern world.

That's a shame, teachers have a tough job just normally. I'm glad that your new school doesn't have drug traffickers at it and the addition of doors on the public restrooms is like Switzerland's flag a big plus.

[Jolthig]

Yeah, to degrade the quality of Spain in terms of educational standards (unless if proven wrong). Heck, the Umayyads in Spain produced some fine philosophers like Ibn Rushd who helped inspire the Renaissance.

So what makes the Inquisition not as bad as people make it out to be?

And ok, we both agree religious cleansing isn't good.

Spain (and Medieval Christian Europe as a whole) was not some kind of Dark Ages backwater. Most of that kind of thinking is based on skewed views and preconceived notions on the Middle Ages which don't stand up to actual study (in fact, most professionals in the field outright reject the term "Dark Ages").

Isn't Dark Ages used for church purges during that time?

Culture, the arts, and technological development were all advancing in Europe unstalled, and indeed the Church was the hub of education at the time (and indeed, the Muslim world was not the home of unrepressed scientific exploration and advancement either, if you've ever looked into how the Mu'tazila were treated).

I mean, the Islamic world did have plenty of philosophers, mathematicians, and scientists who really helped advance the world at the time even if some governments weren't that great. Yeah, I know some things about the Mu'tazilas. They weren't looked as the best.

The Inquisition was far more fairer than things like local law enforcement at the time (which really had no standard rules as far as I'm aware). The Inquisition informed suspects with at least 30 days notice in order for them to be able to create a defense for themselves, and they did not execute nor torture nearly as many people as common culture would suggest (most of which is Protestant English propaganda).

It was still unjust either way. Forcing muslims to abandon certain religious traditions or face death is not my cup of tea.

Compared with Zakat, no it wasn't. And no, it did not force non-Muslims to convert, but it did however make them acknowledge that the Muslims were the new rulers of the land.

It's absolutely false to claim it wasn't a tool used to make people convert. Practically every historian would tell you it was used that way by at least some rulers.

Shit even some Muslim theologians have claimed it's a tool to encourage conversion.

That's the thing: Some rulers. Not all of them.

I mean, it's true people from the dhimmis especially among the Zoroastrians progressively converted over time, but they weren't forced to join the faith.

Jizya, still regardless was a tax that was to be payed like how anyone else pays taxes to governments for their own protection and services.

[Salus Maior]

Spain (and Medieval Christian Europe as a whole) was not some kind of Dark Ages backwater. Most of that kind of thinking is based on skewed views and preconceived notions on the Middle Ages which don't stand up to actual study (in fact, most professionals in the field outright reject the term "Dark Ages").

Culture, the arts, and technological development were all advancing in Europe unstalled, and indeed the Church was the hub of education at the time (and indeed, the Muslim world was not the home of unrepressed scientific exploration and advancement either, if you've ever looked into how the Mu'tazila were treated).

I must emphasize that the reason for moving away from the term "Dark Ages" is because of the implied bias and implication of a homogenous era, not because the period was not one of significant loss for European culture.

Carolingian Renaissance a best, tho.

That's not my understanding of it. And I would contest that claim as well.

But yeah bro, Carolingian era was pretty dope.

[Kowani]

Averroes, Maimonides, all Andalusian philosophers at work. You’re all welcome.

>"Averroes"
Wat is this Latinized crap, smh. It's Ibn Rushd, people!

“When you complain about Latinization while using the American names of Spanish Monarchs.”

[Jolthig]

>"Averroes"
Wat is this Latinized crap, smh. It's Ibn Rushd, people!

“When you complain about Latinization while using the American names of Spanish Monarchs.”

[Conserative Morality]

>liking the Franks

Trying to recover the glories of Rome v. English barbarism

[Salus Maior]

It was still unjust either way. Forcing muslims to abandon certain religious traditions or face death is not my cup of tea.

So you hate the Islamic Conquests as much as I do then, I assume?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

>"Averroes"
Wat is this Latinized crap, smh. It's Ibn Rushd, people!

“When you complain about Latinization while using the American names of Spanish Monarchs.”

Bruv why you gotta hurt me like dat, cuz.

[Jolthig]

It was still unjust either way. Forcing muslims to abandon certain religious traditions or face death is not my cup of tea.

So you hate the Islamic Conquests as much as I do then, I assume?

Didn't say that.

[Salus Maior]

>liking the Franks

Trying to recover the glories of Rome v. English barbarism

Actually that's Norman Barbarism, bub.

[Hanafuridake]

Explain why that would be a good thing. Why do you feel the need to make non-believers acknowledge your leaders as their ruler?

Um.......because that's literally how every state has preserved itself since the first state came into existence? If a significant part of the populace doesn't believe in the legitimacy of the state, rebellion occurs.

This seems like a common sense question, Hanafuridake.

That's not what I asked. In case you haven't noticed, the regions you want Muslim rulers to return to already have states. I'm asking why you think their current state ought to be replaced with yours.

[Kowani]

Ah. Damn. My school here is pretty wealthy, but it all goes to football and teacher’s salaries. Except I live in SoCal, so they still have to work side jobs. My school back in Spain had drug traffickers attending the schools, so this is an improvement. (Plus, the bathrooms have doors, that’s always nice.)


Lo sé, por eso te lo puse. Tienee suerte que no he etao tran’cribiendo el acento, va?

¿Qué significas?

Na, hablándote en Granaíno, ya’ta.

Also, my school had drug dealers too (obvs not during school but you know), and my friend said that around 7 girls in my school got pregnant.

No, not dealers. Trafficker. Substantially worse.