Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Do you think the Soviets would have granted Eastern Europe independence if they had not been forced to?

What exactly are you referring to?

The Soviets weren't forced to release Eastern Europe during the 80s and 90s. Government changes toppled the Communist dictatorships across Eastern Europe, after which the democratic opposition declared independence. The USSR was too weak, and by this point, too liberal to stop the independence of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. I don't think your point that force is a crucial aspect of Human history and a tool for change is wrong per se, but you could have chosen a better example.

[Duhon]

All I can say is that one must look further down.

And all I say is to go beyond, yet here we are.

No going beyond what is when the end justifies the means.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Because we haven't tried being nice to one another.

Do you think the Soviets would have granted Eastern Europe independence if they had not been forced to?

The Soviets would have if the Soviets were nice. They apparently would not have if they had your outlook on niceness.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

I didn't say or even come close to saying that, but anyone in power who cites the process of making an omelet as justification for whatever shit he's made up... is not gonna be a nice guy, even once shit settles down.

The bricks with which the house of history is shaped are made of bones, and the tree of Society watered with blood. Being nice gets one nowhere, being ruthless makes the giants of history.

The tree of society is watered with cooperation and kindness. To the tree of liberty, blood is a herbicide.

[Duhon]

Do you think the Soviets would have granted Eastern Europe independence if they had not been forced to?

The Soviets would have if the Soviets were nice. They apparently would not have if they had your outlook on niceness.

Is this sarcasm?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

The Soviets would have if the Soviets were nice. They apparently would not have if they had your outlook on niceness.

Is this sarcasm?

Not really. The world would have been better if the Soviets were nicer.

[Duhon]

Is this sarcasm?

Not really. The world would have been better if the Soviets were nicer.

Not really. Their version of communism -- even "socialism in one country" -- was predicated on the man on top always getting his way. Being nice, as you put it, just made the collapse of the USSR even quicker.

[Novus America]

Did I claim to be a world-historical individual? No.

I didn't say or even come close to saying that, but anyone in power who cites the process of making an omelet as justification for whatever shit he's made up... is not gonna be a nice guy, even once shit settles down.

Great rulers are not usually always nice guys.
Sometimes they do have to use violence.
Now of course that is not to say they have to be a mass murdering psychotic lunatic.

The violence must be controlled, used only where necessary.
But ruling requires judicious use of violence.

[The New California Republic]

Do you think the Soviets would have granted Eastern Europe independence if they had not been forced to?

What exactly are you referring to?

The Soviets weren't forced to release Eastern Europe during the 80s and 90s. Government changes toppled the Communist dictatorships across Eastern Europe, after which the democratic opposition declared independence. The USSR was too weak, and by this point, too liberal to stop the independence of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc. I don't think your point that force is a crucial aspect of Human history and a tool for change is wrong per se, but you could have chosen a better example.

The only thing I can think of is when the Soviets stopped supplying subsidised fuel to the GDR from the late seventies onwards; it started a chain reaction in the GDR of economic decay and increasing reliance on foreign loans, and started to result in widespread social dissent in the country. This break with Moscow was also demonstrated ideologically, by the press in the GDR censoring any mention of Glasnost and Perestroika. However, the effects of all of this were entirely unintentional on the part of the Soviets. The Soviet and GDR leadership still went through the motions at the official meetings between them etc, but Gorbachev and Honecker were poles apart by 1989.

[Benuty]

While I think it is wrong for any politicians to be very rich, the Soviet Union had comparable treatment of them to many other countries. Keeping in mind that the monarchy was still fairly fresh throughout half of its history, they weren't that bad at first. Bureaucratic corruption later tainted this. That being said, Lenin and his wife dressed plainly and straightforward while Stalin cared little for jewelry and adornment. I know less of Mao. He clearly overweight among many wealth problems but sources seem less complete. I have no doubt that he lived luxuriously like many of Beijing's elite.

So good of them to dress plainly so people wouldn't fuss about how they lived much better lives than your typical factory worker.

I'm sure Stalin and Lenin in the Kremlin lived just as modestly as the worker in a cramped government owned dorm. Surely.

Lenin was known to actually despise creature comforts and admired a spartan lifestyle. I mean the guy literally worked himself into an early grave so say what you will, but he wasn't hosting massive parties and orgies in the Kremlin.

[The New California Republic]

So good of them to dress plainly so people wouldn't fuss about how they lived much better lives than your typical factory worker.

I'm sure Stalin and Lenin in the Kremlin lived just as modestly as the worker in a cramped government owned dorm. Surely.

Lenin was known to actually despise creature comforts and admired a spartan lifestyle.

Photos of Lenin's office show a lot of clutter, so I'm not sure how true that is.

Mind you, much of the clutter that can be seen are all necessities on an early 20th century writing desk, so if we photoshopped out the essentials then there probably wouldn't be much left.

[Nea Byzantia]

Allow me to phrase my point differently, since I probably botched it: if everybody from the immigrant fresh off the boat, to the guy who's family has been here 400 years, is "Canadian", then "Canadian" means nothing. And speaking the lingua franca allows you to communicate, which is definitely a positive; but it doesn't exactly make everybody feel "Canadian", because the term is so watered-down, its meaning has become so expansive that's its meaning is gone. And the same thing has happened with the United States. The term "American" is so broad, that its similarly devoid of meaning.

It is generally a problem with multiethnic empires and states, that their diversity splits the people living in them apart from each other, because everybody's going to start playing Identity Politics, and looking first and foremost to the interests of their ethnos rather than that of the Empire or State; and once one group starts playing that game, its only a matter of time before all the other groups start dropping the pretense of "Unity", and start looking only to themselves, and for themselves.

Its easy to pretend that people will willingly renounce their loyalty to their group in favour of allegiance to the Empire or State - but this is at best temporary - and will only last so long as the Empire or State is able to provide for, or cater to the needs of that group. The moment this is no longer so, and that particular group or ethnos feels disenfranchised or oppressed - because others' needs are put ahead of their own - you get instability - and once the situation inevitably escalates - you get secession (if its one group or people), or breakup, if its multiple. It doesn't matter how powerful the Empire or State is; once these dynamics are set into motion, the multiethnic State or Empire will be broken up, either in part or in whole.

I'll grant you that first generation immigrants cannot be fully assimilated, well it's rare (unless they moved when incredibly young). Almost all of my grandparents were born in the UK and they assimilated well enough but still retained a lot of their British habits even though most moved when still adolescent. But by the third generation and beyond? Hell yeah they usually are, at least if the country has a policy of promoting assimilation. You don't have to be British to be Canadian or American. It's kind of sad that the Latin American countries are beating us at this game to be perfectly honest.

To be honest, I'm not sure if America still has its Melting Pot policy - but up here in Canada, we've chucked assimilation out the window, and for some time too.

Do you live in Canada or the USA, btw?

[Napkizemlja]

I'll grant you that first generation immigrants cannot be fully assimilated, well it's rare (unless they moved when incredibly young). Almost all of my grandparents were born in the UK and they assimilated well enough but still retained a lot of their British habits even though most moved when still adolescent. But by the third generation and beyond? Hell yeah they usually are, at least if the country has a policy of promoting assimilation. You don't have to be British to be Canadian or American. It's kind of sad that the Latin American countries are beating us at this game to be perfectly honest.

To be honest, I'm not sure if America still has its Melting Pot policy - but up here in Canada, we've chucked assimilation out the window, and for some time too.

Do you live in Canada or the USA, btw?

I think my rhetoric surrounding the Quebecois should be indicative.

[Napkizemlja]

I don't live in Quebec, though my mother's family were Anglo-Quebecers until they had to leave as a result of the language law and the establishment of the Quebec Language Hisbah.

[Nea Byzantia]

I don't live in Quebec, though my mother's family were Anglo-Quebecers until they had to leave as a result of the language law and the establishment of the Quebec Language Hisbah.

Bill 101, probably one of the worst decisions of all time, as it chased most large companies from Montreal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_o ... h_Language

[Napkizemlja]

I don't live in Quebec, though my mother's family were Anglo-Quebecers until they had to leave as a result of the language law and the establishment of the Quebec Language Hisbah.

Bill 101, probably one of the worst decisions of all time, as it chased most large companies from Montreal.

Meh, my grandfather ended up getting a better job working as a contractor for NASA after that. *shrug*

[Camelone]

Question though what is your definition of stable? Is it purely no civil war or unrest or something like that?

That’s not really that hard to do when most countries are either new or completely restructured after the devastation of the World Wars. Still pretty good though nonetheless. I’m just in a nitpicking mood tonight it seems.

Why must a state do more than maintain the peace and ensure people are happy, healthy, and wise?

And what is "more", anyway?

I was asking for the definition of stability being used to more accurately state how many years of actual stable government the United States has had.

I’m just confused here, I didn’t use more anywhere in my post and it was primarily a question about definitions for an accurate historical discussion. The definitions of key words must be agreed upon to prevent the talking past of individuals.

[Nea Byzantia]

Bill 101, probably one of the worst decisions of all time, as it chased most large companies from Montreal.

Meh, my grandfather ended up getting a better job working as a contractor for NASA after that. *shrug*

It hurts the Quebecois more than anybody else, as it makes life for businesses more difficult, plus you have a large number of non-Quebecois who are bilingual (speak English and French) are possibly a third language (depending on where they're from); whereas many French-Canadians barely speak English, and only speak French, which means they're pretty much isolated in Quebec. I'm saying this as somebody who still lives in Quebec, the Quebecois in Ontario and elsewhere are usually fluent in English, cause they need to be.

[Napkizemlja]

Meh, my grandfather ended up getting a better job working as a contractor for NASA after that. *shrug*

It hurts the Quebecois more than anybody else, as it makes life for businesses more difficult, plus you have a large number of non-Quebecois who are bilingual (speak English and French) are possibly a third language (depending on where they're from); whereas many French-Canadians barely speak English, and only speak French, which means they're pretty much isolated in Quebec. I'm saying this as somebody who still lives in Quebec, the Quebecois in Ontario and elsewhere are usually fluent in English, cause they need to be.

Ils peuvent s'allonger dans le lit qu'ils ont fait.

[Nea Byzantia]

It hurts the Quebecois more than anybody else, as it makes life for businesses more difficult, plus you have a large number of non-Quebecois who are bilingual (speak English and French) are possibly a third language (depending on where they're from); whereas many French-Canadians barely speak English, and only speak French, which means they're pretty much isolated in Quebec. I'm saying this as somebody who still lives in Quebec, the Quebecois in Ontario and elsewhere are usually fluent in English, cause they need to be.

Ils peuvent s'allonger dans le lit qu'ils ont fait.

Ils ont aucun choix. Leurs chefs sont des putes - mais cela c'est une probleme universel.

[Napkizemlja]

Ils peuvent s'allonger dans le lit qu'ils ont fait.

Ils ont aucun choix. Nos chefs sont des putes - mais cela c'est une probleme universel.

True, but then again all the relevant parties toe that line. I don't think it'll change any time soon.

[Nea Byzantia]

Ils ont aucun choix. Nos chefs sont des putes - mais cela c'est une probleme universel.

True, but then again all the relevant parties toe that line. I don't think it'll change any time soon.

Unfortunately, you're right.

[Bienenhalde]

I'll grant you that first generation immigrants cannot be fully assimilated, well it's rare (unless they moved when incredibly young). Almost all of my grandparents were born in the UK and they assimilated well enough but still retained a lot of their British habits even though most moved when still adolescent. But by the third generation and beyond? Hell yeah they usually are, at least if the country has a policy of promoting assimilation. You don't have to be British to be Canadian or American. It's kind of sad that the Latin American countries are beating us at this game to be perfectly honest.

To be honest, I'm not sure if America still has its Melting Pot policy - but up here in Canada, we've chucked assimilation out the window, and for some time too.

Do you live in Canada or the USA, btw?

Canada should probably return to the ideal of being a melting pot.

[Washington Resistance Army]

To be honest, I'm not sure if America still has its Melting Pot policy - but up here in Canada, we've chucked assimilation out the window, and for some time too.

Do you live in Canada or the USA, btw?

The American melting pot died with the rise of IdPol tbh.

[Nea Byzantia]

To be honest, I'm not sure if America still has its Melting Pot policy - but up here in Canada, we've chucked assimilation out the window, and for some time too.

Do you live in Canada or the USA, btw?

The American melting pot died with the rise of IdPol tbh.

So you'll be coming our way soon enough...A pity.