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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
115
26%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
52
12%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
43
10%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
147
33%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
18
4%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
68
15%
 
Total votes : 443

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Nova Cyberia
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Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed May 22, 2019 12:09 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:As opposed to simply saying that we're all Americans instead of relying on some flimsy immigrant mythos to validate our existence.

That we're all Americans is the essential nature of the immigrant mythos. It prevents morons from playing "More American that thou" by saying, say, that their family has been here for CENTURIES! Clearly, I don't know who their daddy is.

No, actually, it does the opposite. In fact, it allows people to claim that Native Americans are the only true Americans since they did not immigrate here. It's purely divisive.
Nova Cyberia wrote:I doubt you have, tbh. No one who's actually lived around minorities acts as you do. Usually they're more secure in themselves.

>> mixed race
>> from a mixed race family
>> went to a school where mixed race people were 1/5 of the student body
>> "u never been round minorities!"

Good job, buddy!

>mixed race yet probably paler than I am
>lives in Appalachia, whitest place on earth
>always overeager to yeet on other white people
>always walks on egg shells when talking to minorities for fear of offending them

"My best friend is black!"
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
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Nea Byzantia
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nea Byzantia » Wed May 22, 2019 12:10 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:That we're all Americans is the essential nature of the immigrant mythos. It prevents morons from playing "More American that thou" by saying, say, that their family has been here for CENTURIES! Clearly, I don't know who their daddy is.

No, actually, it does the opposite. In fact, it allows people to claim that Native Americans are the only true Americans since they did not immigrate here. It's purely divisive.
>> mixed race
>> from a mixed race family
>> went to a school where mixed race people were 1/5 of the student body
>> "u never been round minorities!"

Good job, buddy!

>mixed race yet probably paler than I am
>lives in Appalachia, whitest place on earth
>always overeager to yeet on other white people
>always walks on egg shells when talking to minorities for fear of offending them

"My best friend is black!"

How much longer is this sh*tshow gonna go on?

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Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5782
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm

Diopolis wrote:And, of course, in the north the Iturbides were more popular.

It's difficult to see the House of Iturbide remaining popular in an urbanized Texas where Latin culture predominated. They drew much of their support from rural landowners of criollo origin. A Anglo-Latin Texas ruled by the House of Iturbide with a parliamentary government in place would have been interesting, but that's an alternative history scenario.
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Novus America
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Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Wed May 22, 2019 12:11 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Novus America wrote:
So we should all move back to Africa?


Nice strawman. Yes, I know humans originated in Africa, but in other parts of the world, we still have the first group of humans to settle in any given place before anyone else, as well and the distinction of the first organized government to claim a territory.


So you would still be going back to Germany, no bad example as Germans were not the first people in the land that is now Germany, but regardless Pennsylvania is not the first government of the first people on the land, an obvious unworkable and unsustainable concept anyways.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Bear Stearns
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Posts: 4493
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:12 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Novus America wrote:Look, I have nothing against WASPs who are not pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.
You are Americans too. Just not the only Americans.

Anyone who seriously identifies as a WASP is probably pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.

Most people who are protestants don't identify as "Protestants", but as a sect. Most people with Anglo ancestry specify that they're "English" rather than a late 19th century racialist buzzword.


If you notice, I don't use the term WASP very much. None of us call ourselves that.

We usually just call ourselves white or American.

But for the sake of clarity in this discussion, we use more specific ethnic names.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Wed May 22, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
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Nova Cyberia
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Posts: 4456
Founded: May 06, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed May 22, 2019 12:13 pm

Nea Byzantia wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:No, actually, it does the opposite. In fact, it allows people to claim that Native Americans are the only true Americans since they did not immigrate here. It's purely divisive.

>mixed race yet probably paler than I am
>lives in Appalachia, whitest place on earth
>always overeager to yeet on other white people
>always walks on egg shells when talking to minorities for fear of offending them

"My best friend is black!"

How much longer is this sh*tshow gonna go on?

Right up until CM stops going into a toddler-like rage whenever anyone mentions immigration.
Yes, yes, I get it. I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it
##############
American Nationalist
Third Positionist Gang

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Bienenhalde
Senator
 
Posts: 3772
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Wed May 22, 2019 12:14 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Novus America wrote:Look, I have nothing against WASPs who are not pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.
You are Americans too. Just not the only Americans.

Anyone who seriously identifies as a WASP is probably pushing ethno nationalist white supremacy BS.

Most people who are protestants don't identify as "Protestants", but as a sect. Most people with Anglo ancestry specify that they're "English" rather than a late 19th century racialist buzzword.


Nowadays, the term WASP is also used pejoratively or as a term of ironic self-deprecation.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Wed May 22, 2019 12:14 pm

What are we even fighting over? The semantics of a nation of immigrants vs a nation of citizens?
I mean do we not have more important issues to resolve?
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76675
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:14 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:It disputes your BS claim that foreigners were always !0% of the populace, as if that's some desirable trait to have. However, that's not true and America has gone through more periods of immigration reduction and restriction than it has of open immigration. Immigration's contribution to the US is vastly overstates.

5 decades of immigration being significantly under 10% vs. 13 decades of it being ~10% or over

Hmmm...

Well, whatever you need to keep that WASP ethos going!
Are you really trying to say that people born here, with colonial ancestry are still immigrants?

About as much as you're saying that people born here with immigrant ancestry aren't really the descendents of immigrants because somewhere in their line they have an ancestor that was probably around in the colonial period.

It's almost like you don't understand how genealogy or intermarriage works past a generation or two.
I mean jesus. What's the cuttoff for you when you stop being an immigrant?

Why does that matter? Except for pointless dick-measuring contests about how long your family has been here?

tbqh people like you need to be kicked out.
Anglo percentage declines are largely due to self-identification.

What a convenient excuse! I am sure that is completely true. This allows you to ignore actual numbers and data in exchange for imagining that your WASP paradise will someday recover from the immigrant hordes. :)
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West Leas Oros 2
Minister
 
Posts: 2135
Founded: Jul 15, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed May 22, 2019 12:15 pm

Novus America wrote:What are we even fighting over? The semantics of a nation of immigrants vs a nation of citizens?
I mean do we not have more important issues to resolve?

Last I checked, it was possible to be an immigrant and a citizen...
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Conserative Morality
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Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:16 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:You need to have some distinction for who is an American and who isn't. If you take the immigrant mythos to its logical conclusion, then basically anyone who sets foot here is an American. And if everyone is an American, then what does American really mean? Not much.

>> when you disagree with the standard raised by almost every major political and cultural figure of not only the American Revolution but of every successful political or cultural movement in America after

Good job.
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Bear Stearns
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Posts: 4493
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:16 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:It disputes your BS claim that foreigners were always !0% of the populace, as if that's some desirable trait to have. However, that's not true and America has gone through more periods of immigration reduction and restriction than it has of open immigration. Immigration's contribution to the US is vastly overstates.

5 decades of immigration being significantly under 10% vs. 13 decades of it being ~10% or over

Hmmm...

Well, whatever you need to keep that WASP ethos going!
Are you really trying to say that people born here, with colonial ancestry are still immigrants?

About as much as you're saying that people born here with immigrant ancestry aren't really the descendents of immigrants because somewhere in their line they have an ancestor that was probably around in the colonial period.

It's almost like you don't understand how genealogy or intermarriage works past a generation or two.
I mean jesus. What's the cuttoff for you when you stop being an immigrant?

Why does that matter? Except for pointless dick-measuring contests about how long your family has been here?

tbqh people like you need to be kicked out.
Anglo percentage declines are largely due to self-identification.

What a convenient excuse! I am sure that is completely true. This allows you to ignore actual numbers and data in exchange for imagining that your WASP paradise will someday recover from the immigrant hordes. :)


Kicking people out of the country? Holy fuck the insecurity. Did you get ass whooped by a New Englander or something once?
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Bear Stearns
Senator
 
Posts: 4493
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:19 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:You need to have some distinction for who is an American and who isn't. If you take the immigrant mythos to its logical conclusion, then basically anyone who sets foot here is an American. And if everyone is an American, then what does American really mean? Not much.

>> when you disagree with the standard raised by almost every major political and cultural figure of not only the American Revolution but of every successful political or cultural movement in America after

Good job.


Do you actually know what the Founding Fathers thought about race and immigration or did you think Hamilton was a true story?
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76675
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:19 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:No, actually, it does the opposite. In fact, it allows people to claim that Native Americans are the only true Americans since they did not immigrate here. It's purely divisive.

The projection here is quite powerful. This might surprise you, but not everyone defines who is and is not an American by ancestry. This isn't a simple 'reversal' like you seem to think it is. It's an entirely different principle altogether.
>mixed race yet probably paler than I am
>lives in Appalachia, whitest place on earth
>always overeager to yeet on other white people
>always walks on egg shells when talking to minorities for fear of offending them

"My best friend is black!"

Nice assertions, but I only see proof for one of them. I'm ever eager to piss on ethnonationalists. That you only notice when it's your fellow white ethnonationalists is of no concern to me. :)
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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:20 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:>> when you disagree with the standard raised by almost every major political and cultural figure of not only the American Revolution but of every successful political or cultural movement in America after

Good job.


Do you actually know what the Founding Fathers thought about race and immigration or did you think Hamilton was a true story?

Some Rando wrote:The bosom of America is open to receive not only the Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations And Religions; whom we shall wellcome to a participation of all our rights and previleges, if by decency and propriety of conduct they appear to merit the enjoyment.
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Novus America
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Wed May 22, 2019 12:21 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Novus America wrote:What are we even fighting over? The semantics of a nation of immigrants vs a nation of citizens?
I mean do we not have more important issues to resolve?

Last I checked, it was possible to be an immigrant and a citizen...


Of course. Which is why this is silly.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Bear Stearns
Senator
 
Posts: 4493
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:22 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
Do you actually know what the Founding Fathers thought about race and immigration or did you think Hamilton was a true story?

Some Rando wrote:The bosom of America is open to receive not only the Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations And Religions; whom we shall wellcome to a participation of all our rights and previleges, if by decency and propriety of conduct they appear to merit the enjoyment.


Okay...if you want to play the quote game, let just pick from any one of the slaveholding Founders. Or, we can look the actual laws they wrote concerning immigration at the time.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
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Fahran
Negotiator
 
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Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Wed May 22, 2019 12:22 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:If you notice, I don't use the term WASP very much. None of us call ourselves that.

We usually just call ourselves white or American.

But for the sake of clarity in this discussion, we use more specific ethnic names.

I do use the term Anglo-American to describe white people who speak English primarily, practice some form of Protestantism, have a particular approach to everyday cuisine, and who have last names like Smith or Johnson. I tend to throw Scots-Irish, Irish, and German Americans who are indistinguishable from Anglo-Americans, aside from when they attend cultural festivals, into that category as well to be honest. Most of them have a lot more in common with each other than they do with recent immigrants if their parents came here more than a generation or two ago. And, despite complaints from alleged nativists, the same thing tends to happen with Mexican or Central American immigrants whose children don't speak Spanish or remain in region's where Latin American culture is strong. I define it more culturally than on a hereditary basis though. It's definitely a bit deeper than the creed-based nationalism that some seem to favor because you can really see it as someone who is only tangentially connected to that mainstream culture. Americans act differently, value different things, eat different things, etc. Yes, there are differences. Yes, there are immigrant communities. There's still an American culture and ethnic identity/identities.
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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
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Founded: Aug 24, 2007
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:23 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Kicking people out of the country? Holy fuck the insecurity. Did you get ass whooped by a New Englander or something once?

Most of my family is still in New England, actually. My parents were Appalachian transplants. I just believe that ethnonationalists have no place in this country, or really this world, but I suppose people should be free to hold their dangerous delusions somewhere, preferably somewhere very isolated.
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Nea Byzantia
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Founded: Jun 03, 2016
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Wed May 22, 2019 12:23 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:


Okay...if you want to play the quote game, let just pick from any one of the slaveholding Founders. Or, we can look the actual laws they wrote concerning immigration at the time.

This is gonna get ugly...

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Bienenhalde
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Posts: 3772
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Wed May 22, 2019 12:25 pm

Novus America wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:
Nice strawman. Yes, I know humans originated in Africa, but in other parts of the world, we still have the first group of humans to settle in any given place before anyone else, as well and the distinction of the first organized government to claim a territory.


So you would still be going back to Germany, no bad example as Germans were not the first people in the land that is now Germany, but regardless Pennsylvania is not the first government of the first people on the land, an obvious unworkable and unsustainable concept anyways.


Well, I am not exactly opposed to all immigration. But as a white person, I am well aware that I am not an indigenous inhabitant of this continent. Also, pre-contact Native Americans had chiefs or elders, but they did not have an advanced, organized system of government comparable to the modern state.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
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Bear Stearns
Senator
 
Posts: 4493
Founded: Dec 02, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Bear Stearns » Wed May 22, 2019 12:25 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Kicking people out of the country? Holy fuck the insecurity. Did you get ass whooped by a New Englander or something once?

Most of my family is still in New England, actually. My parents were Appalachian transplants. I just believe that ethnonationalists have no place in this country, or really this world, but I suppose people should be free to hold their dangerous delusions somewhere, preferably somewhere very isolated.


Okay..creepy. It seems this touches a deeper nerve with you than a simple political debate.

Where is your gulag for us going to be located?
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26585
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Wed May 22, 2019 12:25 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:


Okay...if you want to play the quote game, let just pick from any one of the slaveholding Founders. Or, we can look the actual laws they wrote concerning immigration at the time.


They never wrote any laws saying Anglo Protestants only.
Sure several had unfortunately racist views against Africa Americans.

But we should not want to continue that of course.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76675
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:25 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Okay...if you want to play the quote game, let just pick from any one of the slaveholding Founders. Or, we can look the actual laws they wrote concerning immigration at the time.

Washington was one of the slaveholding Founders. Nice try though. I mean, it was a try.
Some other rando wrote:Born in other countries, yet believing you could be happy in this, our laws acknowledge, as they should do, your right to join us in society, conforming, as I doubt not you will do, to our established rules. That these rules shall be as equal as prudential considerations will admit, will certainly be the aim of our legislatures, general and particular.


Immigration was essentially unrestricted until the late 19th century. :)
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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76675
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Wed May 22, 2019 12:25 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Most of my family is still in New England, actually. My parents were Appalachian transplants. I just believe that ethnonationalists have no place in this country, or really this world, but I suppose people should be free to hold their dangerous delusions somewhere, preferably somewhere very isolated.


Okay..creepy. It seems this touches a deeper nerve with you than a simple political debate.

Where is your gulag for us going to be located?

Politics affects the lives of millions. Especially dangerous politics, like ethnonationalism. If you don't give a shit about millions of people, or think it's worth being passionate about, that's your problem, not mine.

Montana.
Last edited by Conserative Morality on Wed May 22, 2019 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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