Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

[Jack Thomas Lang]

*AfD exists and Right Wing Germans are still a bunch of pricks trampling over the sovereignty of other countries*

Sure it worked fine.

AfD is centered in East Germany. I'm not suggesting that AfD is made up of ex-communists (although the Commie-to-fascist pipeline is a thing), but that the rise of AfD and soft treatment of Nazi officials are in no way related.

[Asherahan]

*AfD exists and Right Wing Germans are still a bunch of pricks trampling over the sovereignty of other countries*

Sure it worked fine.

The AfD is pretty small and not explicitly Nazi afaik. And what do you mean when you say "right-wing Germans?"

Truth be told I got a bias against right wing germans because I am a greek.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

The AfD is pretty small and not explicitly Nazi afaik. And what do you mean when you say "right-wing Germans?"

Truth be told I got a bias against right wing germans because I am a greek.

Arguing that the EU would be less hawkish if Nazi party members were repressed harshly is a big stretch.

[Asherahan]

Explain?

Quite a lot of people (including probably myself) have moral blindspots to the point of supporting/advocating/celebrating the deaths of large groups of people. If that were a capital crime, you'd have to kill a lot of people.

And the lastly kill myself. Good plan.

[Duhon]

Didn't West Germany go easy on former Nazi party members and administrators? If so, seems to have worked out fine.

They had to; logistics aside, way too many Nazis were capable of stuff unrelated to their Nazism, like actually running their half of the country -- so instead they had to die off while the Grundsegetz made human rights a paramount issue and a generation of west... sigh... Germans grew up all too acutely aware of the mind-breaking monstrosities of the past.

[Asherahan]

Truth be told I got a bias against right wing germans because I am a greek.

Arguing that the EU would be less hawkish if Nazi party members were repressed harshly is a big stretch.

Maybe your right. Or Maybe I am right who knows.

[Asherahan]

Didn't West Germany go easy on former Nazi party members and administrators? If so, seems to have worked out fine.

They had to; logistics aside, way too many Nazis were capable of stuff unrelated to their Nazism, like actually running their half of the country -- so instead they had to die off while the Grundsegetz made human rights a paramount issue and a generation of west... sigh... Germans grew up all too acutely aware of the mind-breaking monstrosities of the past.

Not acutely enough apparently.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Not acutely enough apparently.

As I've said before, the rise of parties like the AfD stem less from Nazis not getting the bullet, but from the collapse of East Germany and ensuing unequal relation between West and East.

[Duhon]

*AfD exists and Right Wing Germans are still a bunch of pricks trampling over the sovereignty of other countries*

Sure it worked fine.

AfD is centered in East Germany. I'm not suggesting that AfD is made up of ex-communists (although the Commie-to-fascist pipeline is a thing), but that the rise of AfD and soft treatment of Nazi officials are in no way related.

Given how Nazis who happened to be lucky enough to find themselves east of the Iron Curtain were vastly better treated than Nazis to the west (in that the ideology was left unchallenged by a USSR that was also adrift in their own sea of bigotry), I doubt there isn't some connection.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Given how Nazis who happened to be lucky enough to find themselves east of the Iron Curtain were vastly better treated than Nazis to the west (in that the ideology was left unchallenged by a USSR that was also adrift in their own sea of bigotry), I doubt there isn't some connection.

Umm what?

Many of the same Communist politicians that rose to power in the DDR enjoyed the hospitality of German concentration camps.

[Conserative Morality]

Nothing so harsh. They were merely supporting, materially and morally, the murder of millions.

Which is not a capital crime.

Genocide isn't a capital crime?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Which is not a capital crime.

Genocide isn't a capital crime?

Supporting it isn't.

[Asherahan]

Not acutely enough apparently.

As I've said before, the rise of parties like the AfD stem less from Nazis not getting the bullet, but from the collapse of East Germany and ensuing unequal relation between West and East.

I blame unrestricted capitalism. Also the former nazi administration of west germany

[Conserative Morality]

Given how Nazis who happened to be lucky enough to find themselves east of the Iron Curtain were vastly better treated than Nazis to the west (in that the ideology was left unchallenged by a USSR that was also adrift in their own sea of bigotry), I doubt there isn't some connection.

Umm what?

Many of the same Communist politicians that rose to power in the DDR enjoyed the hospitality of German concentration camps.

Not all former Nazis faced judgment. Doing special tasks for the Soviet government could protect Nazi members from prosecution, enabling them to continue working.[51][52] Having special connections with the occupiers in order to have someone vouch for them could also shield a person from the denazification laws.[53] In particular, the districts of Gera, Erfurt, and Suhl had significant amounts of former Nazi Party members in their government.[49]

Furthermore...

“Children learn about Fascism as the outcome of monopolism, and they read about Hitler the way they read about Frederick the Great,” a father of eight remarked.

“It doesn’t affect them directly or occur, to them to cross‐examine their parents about their personal responsibility.

“We leave the guilt feelings to those over on the other side.”

Without fully condoning the denial of the past, the father set out to prove its effect. His 12-year‐old son, he said, not only feels no racism or antiSemitism but also probably does not know what they are.

When called to speak for himself, the boy said he had heard of “anti‐Semitism” somewhere, but had never before been asked about it. He thought it was a complicated concept of philosophy.

A newspaper editor said he saw a West German film the other day in which some tourists in Yugoslavia were recognized and rejected as the former occupiers of a small village.

A number of young East Germans seated near.him, the editor said, were baffled by the story” of personal, responsibility for social crimes of the past. They laughed at the wrong places, lost interest and almost spoiled the showing with their conduct.

Questions about how the past weighs on the conscience of this society are greeted seriously but also as a novelty. The fact that there were Nazis in one's family is generally dismissed on the ground that they were dupes of a powerful propaganda, unless they have fled to the West, in which case they remain suspect.

What are called “real criminals” are presumed to have been punished. The schools and courts are said to have been quickly purged of Nazis after I the war, even at the expense of the quality of service.

The conversion of Nazis recently re‐employed there or even admitted to, the Communist party is widely accepted as sincere by party members, while outspoken anti‐Communists generally make no effort to distinguish between those who ruled 25 years ago and those who rule today.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

I blame unrestricted capitalism. Also the former nazi administration of west germany

The first is reasonable, the second is bollocks. You're just reaching to blame ex-Nazis, even though there's no proof or connection.

[Conserative Morality]

Supporting it isn't.

Really? So if I vote for genocide, if I speak out in favor of genocide, if I call upon my government to murder the Jews, that's not a crime?

[Conserative Morality]

I am sure that there is no connection between Nazism and modern day far-right movements in Germany in the least. It Is Just Liberal Fearmongering =^^^)

After World War II, the East German regime tried to shun its historical responsibility by declaring widespread racism had been overcome, by an incomplete program of denazification, by introducing a new socioeconomic system and by portraying West Germany as the sole inheritor of the Nazi legacy.

Those state policies had the effect of making the Nazi past a taboo, while putting all blame and responsibility on the "class enemy" in the West. That led to what historian Mary Fulbrook has called 'collective amnesia' and perpetuated the concept of an ethnically homogenous state, as well as the subliminal yet persistent existence of National Socialist and reactionary thinking in eastern Germany.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

-snip-

I'm not denying that there exceptions, but exceptions do not make the rule. As for your second source, unsurprising and disappointing. It was similar in the Soviet Union really, Hitler was only ever vilified for his invasion of Russia and slaughter of Slavs. I think that the Holocaust was initially denied by the USSR.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Supporting it isn't.

Really? So if I vote for genocide, if I speak out in favor of genocide, if I call upon my government to murder the Jews, that's not a crime?

Not a capital crime. It is incitement if you directly advocate murder, but incitement is not a capital crime.

[Conserative Morality]

Not a capital crime. It is incitement if you directly advocate murder, but incitement is not a capital crime.

In many countries, genocide isn't a capital crime either.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

-snip-

You're arguing against strawmen. I was referring to the soft treatment of ex-Nazis in West Germany, and the purge of ex-Nazis in the DDR. My argument was that the soft treatment of Nazis in West Germany didn't lead to rise of the AfD in East Germany, and I'm not seeing how these sources contradict that. However they do show quite clearly that absolving guilt is a bad idea.

[Conserative Morality]

-snip-

You're arguing against strawmen. I was referring to the soft treatment of ex-Nazis in West Germany, and the purge of ex-Nazis in the DDR. My argument was that the soft treatment of Nazis in West Germany didn't lead to rise of the AfD in East Germany, and I'm not seeing how these sources contradict that. However they do show quite clearly that absolving guilt is a bad idea.

I apologize, I got ahead of myself, then.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Not a capital crime. It is incitement if you directly advocate murder, but incitement is not a capital crime.

In many countries, genocide isn't a capital crime either.

I do not see how that's relevant. (Although, personally I don't think anything should be a capital crime, but that's beside the point).

[Asherahan]

At the very least germany should have been broken up to into smaller states and not allowed to be unified like Austria Hungary.

[Conserative Morality]

In many countries, genocide isn't a capital crime either.

I do not see how that's relevant. (Although, personally I don't think anything should be a capital crime, but that's beside the point).

My point is that current law does not dictate justice; current law is simply the primary conduit for justice.