NATION

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Right-Wing Discussion Thread XVI: Making Things Right Again

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you consider nationalism and patriotism synoymous?

Yes- I am a nationalist and a patriot
8
17%
No- I am a nationalist and a patriot
8
17%
No- I am a nationalist, not a patriot
4
9%
No- I am a patriot, not a nationalist
17
37%
Yes- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
1
2%
No- I am neither a nationalist nor a patriot
8
17%
 
Total votes : 46

User avatar
Bienenhalde
Minister
 
Posts: 3173
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat May 18, 2019 3:16 pm

Communist Zombie Horde wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Nothing says patriotism like adopting the cause of literal traitors.

The south is not traitors we are the most patriotic people in the world.


The thing is, USA patriotism is not the only kind of patriotism in the world. Supporting southern secession might have been anti-USA, but those who succeeded saw themselves as patriots for the CSA. It is really a matter of two different nationalisms competing against each other. But those who supported succession were traitors to the USA, no doubt about it.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
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[*]Age: 24 [*]Pennsylvania Dutch [*]ELCA Lutheran [*]Male [*]Bisexual - leaning towards gay [*]Independent [*]Sinophile-Japanophile [*]Monarchist [*]Has Asperger's

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Hanafuridake
Minister
 
Posts: 2248
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Sat May 18, 2019 3:16 pm

Rostavykhan wrote:
Asherahan wrote:Since when is secession patriotic?


Since we seceded and shot lobsterbacks in the American Revolution.


That was all Americans though and not just some slaveowners who were mad because someone who didn't like them owning people was elected to the office established by the Revolution in the first place.
Time traveling Heian princess trapped in the 21st century
Dogen wrote:Grasses and trees, fences and walls demonstrate and exalt the dharma for the sake of living beings, both ordinary and sage; in turn, living beings, both ordinary and sage, express and unfold it for the sake of grasses and trees, fences and walls.
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User avatar
Bienenhalde
Minister
 
Posts: 3173
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat May 18, 2019 3:22 pm

Rostavykhan wrote:
> Implying patriotism means being patriotic to the US.

Lol, fuck the rest of America. South > West Coast/Midwest/New England any day.


As a proud Pennsylvanian, I must disagree.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
OOC:
[*]Age: 24 [*]Pennsylvania Dutch [*]ELCA Lutheran [*]Male [*]Bisexual - leaning towards gay [*]Independent [*]Sinophile-Japanophile [*]Monarchist [*]Has Asperger's

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The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5321
Founded: Jul 22, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord » Sat May 18, 2019 3:26 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Rostavykhan wrote:
> Implying patriotism means being patriotic to the US.

Lol, fuck the rest of America. South > West Coast/Midwest/New England any day.


As a proud Pennsylvanian, I must disagree.


And as a Pennsylvanian who is less proud of their birthplace than Bienenhalde, I must nevertheless concur with him that blatantly disregarding the rest of the Union is a rather impolite move, if I say so myself.
<THE HIGH SWAGLORD>
If people regarded other people’s states in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own state to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.
If people regarded other people’s cities in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own city to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.
If people regarded other people’s families in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own family to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.

User avatar
Bienenhalde
Minister
 
Posts: 3173
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat May 18, 2019 4:23 pm

The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:
As a proud Pennsylvanian, I must disagree.


And as a Pennsylvanian who is less proud of their birthplace than Bienenhalde, I must nevertheless concur with him that blatantly disregarding the rest of the Union is a rather impolite move, if I say so myself.


Well, whatever I might dislike about the south, I think the USA is overrated anyway and would probably be better off separated into different regional nations or annexed by Canada.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
OOC:
[*]Age: 24 [*]Pennsylvania Dutch [*]ELCA Lutheran [*]Male [*]Bisexual - leaning towards gay [*]Independent [*]Sinophile-Japanophile [*]Monarchist [*]Has Asperger's

User avatar
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5321
Founded: Jul 22, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord » Sat May 18, 2019 4:29 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
And as a Pennsylvanian who is less proud of their birthplace than Bienenhalde, I must nevertheless concur with him that blatantly disregarding the rest of the Union is a rather impolite move, if I say so myself.


Well, whatever I might dislike about the south, I think the USA is overrated anyway and would probably be better off separated into different regional nations or annexed by Canada.


I politely disagree; the US as currently exists has flaws (like a general culture that promotes a sort of egoistic libertine individualism), but these can (and should) be fixed before we undertake an unprecedented degree of e x p a n s i o n.
<THE HIGH SWAGLORD>
If people regarded other people’s states in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own state to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.
If people regarded other people’s cities in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own city to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.
If people regarded other people’s families in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own family to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22309
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat May 18, 2019 4:39 pm

Hanafuridake wrote:
Rostavykhan wrote:
Since we seceded and shot lobsterbacks in the American Revolution.


That was all Americans though and not just some slaveowners who were mad because someone who didn't like them owning people was elected to the office established by the Revolution in the first place.


Plus the slaver traitors actually tried to get the British to attack the US.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22309
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat May 18, 2019 4:41 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
And as a Pennsylvanian who is less proud of their birthplace than Bienenhalde, I must nevertheless concur with him that blatantly disregarding the rest of the Union is a rather impolite move, if I say so myself.


Well, whatever I might dislike about the south, I think the USA is overrated anyway and would probably be better off separated into different regional nations or annexed by Canada.


Which would be the end of the western world.
The US is the only one able to actually defend it.

The US definitely needs improvement and reform, but we are better than most places.

In a dog eat dog world little dogs are dog food.
Last edited by Novus America on Sat May 18, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Diopolis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11830
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Sat May 18, 2019 4:43 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
The Supreme Magnificent High Swaglord wrote:
And as a Pennsylvanian who is less proud of their birthplace than Bienenhalde, I must nevertheless concur with him that blatantly disregarding the rest of the Union is a rather impolite move, if I say so myself.


Well, whatever I might dislike about the south, I think the USA is overrated anyway and would probably be better off separated into different regional nations or annexed by Canada.

Let's go ahead and balkanize. Cantada ain't gettin it's hands on our guns, not down here.
My politics are in a bit of a flux atm. Still a trad-catholic though. Probably will end up as some kind of Texan national conservative or moderate fascist.
Economic left -3.88, authoritarian 6.15
Thoughts
Abortion is not healthcare.
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Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51836
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Sat May 18, 2019 4:46 pm

OH MY GOSH CHESTERTON FINALLY GOT INCLUDED IN AN RWDT POLL!!! *Squees.*
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3

So apparently I am an ENFP!

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faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson

User avatar
Bezkoshtovnya
Senator
 
Posts: 4691
Founded: Sep 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Sat May 18, 2019 5:07 pm

Communist Zombie Horde wrote:
Duhon wrote:
Nothing says patriotism like adopting the cause of literal traitors.

The south is not traitors we are the most patriotic people in the world.

The south is laughably contradictory. Theres always talk about being Patriots but alot of times those same people love romanticizing the confederacy and its symbols.
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ΦΣK
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Jack Thomas Lang
Diplomat
 
Posts: 571
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Sat May 18, 2019 5:47 pm

Luminesa wrote:OH MY GOSH CHESTERTON FINALLY GOT INCLUDED IN AN RWDT POLL!!! *Squees.*

I see you are a person of culture.
Catholic Distributist
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Hanafuridake
Minister
 
Posts: 2248
Founded: Sep 09, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Hanafuridake » Sat May 18, 2019 6:03 pm

Kirillov and Shatov are the best Dostoevsky characters. If you disagree, you need to read him again.
Time traveling Heian princess trapped in the 21st century
Dogen wrote:Grasses and trees, fences and walls demonstrate and exalt the dharma for the sake of living beings, both ordinary and sage; in turn, living beings, both ordinary and sage, express and unfold it for the sake of grasses and trees, fences and walls.
If you love GOT, please consider supporting these charities.

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Nova Cyberia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1255
Founded: May 06, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nova Cyberia » Sat May 18, 2019 6:07 pm

Tolkien is supreme.
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.

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Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2735
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Sat May 18, 2019 6:54 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Communist Zombie Horde wrote:The south is not traitors we are the most patriotic people in the world.


The thing is, USA patriotism is not the only kind of patriotism in the world. Supporting southern secession might have been anti-USA, but those who succeeded saw themselves as patriots for the CSA. It is really a matter of two different nationalisms competing against each other. But those who supported succession were traitors to the USA, no doubt about it.


That nationalism was predicated on people believing other people are not only inferior to them, but must suffer if they dare rise above their putative inferiority. They may give way on slavery, but not on hierarchy.

That was the alpha and omega of the confederacy.

User avatar
Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2735
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Sat May 18, 2019 6:58 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:The Union's mistake was assuming that it was only a minority of Southerners who wanted to secede when the opposite was true.


The second mistake the Union made after battering the Confederacy down to its knees was assuming the South would cotton down to racial egalitarianism.

The last one was in giving back political power to the former Confederacy instead of maintaining military government for as long as needed.

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Bienenhalde
Minister
 
Posts: 3173
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat May 18, 2019 7:10 pm

Duhon wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:The thing is, USA patriotism is not the only kind of patriotism in the world. Supporting southern secession might have been anti-USA, but those who succeeded saw themselves as patriots for the CSA. It is really a matter of two different nationalisms competing against each other. But those who supported succession were traitors to the USA, no doubt about it.


That nationalism was predicated on people believing other people are not only inferior to them, but must suffer if they dare rise above their putative inferiority. They may give way on slavery, but not on hierarchy.

That was the alpha and omega of the confederacy.


I do not disagree with that. I am just saying that the Confederates were a sort of patriot in a sense, not that I would approve of their ideology. And of course clashes between conflicting nationalist movements are not unique to the US. See for example Northern Ireland, the former Yugoslavia, and Taiwan.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
OOC:
[*]Age: 24 [*]Pennsylvania Dutch [*]ELCA Lutheran [*]Male [*]Bisexual - leaning towards gay [*]Independent [*]Sinophile-Japanophile [*]Monarchist [*]Has Asperger's

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Totally Not OEP
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Mar 30, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Totally Not OEP » Sat May 18, 2019 7:26 pm

Image

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Drongonia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 151
Founded: Feb 11, 2019
Corporate Bordello

Postby Drongonia » Sat May 18, 2019 7:28 pm

Totally Not OEP wrote:

And all of a sudden... just like that... people elected Hitler
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Duhon
Minister
 
Posts: 2735
Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Duhon » Sat May 18, 2019 7:31 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Totally Not OEP wrote:

And all of a sudden... just like that... people elected Hitler


If on the basis of such stupidity (and let me reiterate: that shit is stupid) people will elect an asshole they're pretty much looking for an excuse to kick someone upside the head.

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Totally Not OEP
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Mar 30, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Totally Not OEP » Sat May 18, 2019 7:31 pm

Duhon wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:The Union's mistake was assuming that it was only a minority of Southerners who wanted to secede when the opposite was true.


The second mistake the Union made after battering the Confederacy down to its knees was assuming the South would cotton down to racial egalitarianism.

The last one was in giving back political power to the former Confederacy instead of maintaining military government for as long as needed.


By 1876 Reconstruction had already collapse and the political will to maintain troops in the South was gone; Northern voters had been exhausted by the low level guerrilla warfare combined with their own indifference to racial issues.

Hanafuridake wrote:
Totally Not OEP wrote:Events of late are increasingly making me reconsider whether to readopt Southern Nationalism or not.


Posts like this convince me that maybe CM has a point, at least in regard to the failure to take punitive measures so that secessionist ideas would never have arisen in the South again.


Image

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Totally Not OEP
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Mar 30, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Totally Not OEP » Sat May 18, 2019 7:34 pm

Asherahan wrote:Serious question why didn't the US annex Cuba and the Caribbean islands in the 1890s and 1900s?


Because by 1900 the Sugar trade, the only source of value for the Caribbean isles, was no longer as profitable as it once was. In the case of Cuba as well, a long running guerrilla war was being waged and had allowed for the development of Cuban nationalism, which meant annexing it would've put the U.S. in the exact same spot as Spain once was in.

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Totally Not OEP
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Mar 30, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Totally Not OEP » Sat May 18, 2019 7:36 pm

Novus America wrote:
Totally Not OEP wrote:
No.


But as you said their fears were unfounded, it is obvious Lincoln has no intent or power to ban slavery in the South. So even if defended slavery justified the war (when obviously that is still a horrible justification) slavery was not even seriously threatened!


I said they were unfounded because I have the benefit of hindsight, the Southerners of 1860 did not. Even if they did, the South by 1860 had developed its own national identity and thus, in that spirit of self determination, I find them in the right; those men were my ancestors, and I don't begrudge them for doing what they had to do to enact their vision and defend their homes in the process.

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Totally Not OEP
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Mar 30, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Totally Not OEP » Sat May 18, 2019 7:37 pm

Duhon wrote:
Drongonia wrote:And all of a sudden... just like that... people elected Hitler


If on the basis of such stupidity (and let me reiterate: that shit is stupid) people will elect an asshole they're pretty much looking for an excuse to kick someone upside the head.


That's exactly the point, people are feeling the same but in reverse to your opinions.

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Totally Not OEP
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Mar 30, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Totally Not OEP » Sat May 18, 2019 7:37 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Totally Not OEP wrote:Events of late are increasingly making me reconsider whether to readopt Southern Nationalism or not.

What did he mean by this?


There's been a tone shift, at least in part of the Southern populace, that I find lacking in the nation as a whole anymore.

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