2019-2020 US Election Megathread II: Tim Ryan's Empire

[Kowani]

Voting for Trump is endorsing White Supremacist Violence, intentionally or not.

You can't vote for Trump and claim to be defending Christian Values, due to that.

I’m not following your logic again - if we follow that line of reasoning, voting for Generic Democratic Candidate A is endorsing premarital sex, homosexual perversions, the murder of the unborn, more beside. If we’re talking sheer utilitarian ethics, I’m pretty comfortable asserting that the millions of lives ruined by the aforementioned activities are worth more than dozens to hundreds harmed by direct action by white supremacists.

Alright, let’s unpack this pile of bull. Nobody advocates premarital sex as a party position. Literally nobody, because it’s a nonissue.
“Homosexual perversion.” We shall ignore the entire argument about secularism for a moment, and merely point out that it was a SCOTUS ruling that brought about gay marriage.
As for abortion, well. Not murder.
(Also, you can’t really claim that lives have been ruined, when they haven’t.)

[Sidesh0w B0b]

I’m not following your logic again - if we follow that line of reasoning, voting for Generic Democratic Candidate A is endorsing premarital sex, homosexual perversions, the murder of the unborn, more beside. If we’re talking sheer utilitarian ethics, I’m pretty comfortable asserting that the millions of lives ruined by the aforementioned activities are worth more than dozens to hundreds harmed by direct action by white supremacists.

I'm glad you are happy to let me be murdered potentially. Really Christian of you.

The War on Christmas presents an excellent opportunity for a thrilling body count.

Hmm. Sounds like I just made an answer to an issue. Hey, do you got that Candlewhisper Archive?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh no, I don’t support violence against most folks on politics or persuasion alone - that’s a useless statement.

But here you demonstrate the ethical fallacy of personal worth; morally, does it not make sense to value millions over thousands? There’s nothing practically wrong with choosing a standpoint based on impact on oneself, but that hardly validated any commentary on that standpoint’s moral quality.

The fact is you have a president who doesn't care about him empowering them. He is politically forced to condemn them but he doesn't give a f*ck.

You're voting for someone who is putting children in cages.

Look. I'm Pro-Life. To the core. But even then, that could not morally justify to myself voting for Trump-in fact it made me anti-Trump.
And though I was economically progressive and socially more progressive than the GOP, that was the last straw when he was nominated. I couldn't support a demonic president like him. My political views are aligned with my religious views. Thus, he is to me utterly demonic and satanic.

I am forced into the Democratic Party because of the Electoral College making it useless having more than 2 parties practically speaking. I feel utterly isolated as the Hardcore Christian following his ethics the most true compared to the others who voted for Trump.

Okay, “children in cages” is both pandering and drinking the kool-aid. There are a myriad of circumstances that are responsible for the prolonged detention of those who cross the borders illegally, none of which the executive branch is directly in control of.

Is your opposition to Trump boiled down to “he isn’t a good person” alongside not enjoying some of his supporters? Because policy to me speaks much louder than any of those factors - on a scale which is so different as to be night and day.

[Telconi]

Okay, “children in cages” is both pandering and drinking the kool-aid. There are a myriad of circumstances that are responsible for the prolonged detention of those who cross the borders illegally, none of which the executive branch is directly in control of.

Is your opposition to Trump boiled down to “he isn’t a good person” alongside not enjoying some of his supporters? Because policy to me speaks much louder than any of those factors - on a scale which is so different as to be night and day.

Policy and him not being a good person.
I will not vote for anyone who isn't a good person and will vocally oppose them.
His policies too are objectively disastrous, taking emotion out of the picture.
"Drinking the Kool Aid".
Idk why you drink so much Kool Aid man, you should put that drink down and study facts, not Breitbart, Fox News, or The Blaze-all fake news/propaganda.

Enjoy never voting lol.

[Hakons]

I generally don't address Gauth's nonsense, waste of time.

You might not know what endorsement means, odd thing for an aspiring politician.

Voting for Trump is endorsing White Supremacist Violence, intentionally or not.

You can't vote for Trump and claim to be defending Christian Values, due to that.

That's... not remotely true. Voting for Trump isn't endorsing white supremacist violence. Voting for Trump is voting for Trump and Republicans. Neither Trump nor Republicans endorse or support white supremacist terrorism.

Neither party defends Christian Values in their entirety.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Okay, “children in cages” is both pandering and drinking the kool-aid. There are a myriad of circumstances that are responsible for the prolonged detention of those who cross the borders illegally, none of which the executive branch is directly in control of.

Is your opposition to Trump boiled down to “he isn’t a good person” alongside not enjoying some of his supporters? Because policy to me speaks much louder than any of those factors - on a scale which is so different as to be night and day.

Policy and him not being a good person.
I will not vote for anyone who isn't a good person and will vocally oppose them.
His policies too are objectively disastrous, taking emotion out of the picture.
"Drinking the Kool Aid".
Idk why you drink so much Kool Aid man, you should put that drink down and study facts, not Breitbart, Fox News, or The Blaze-all fake news/propaganda.

Oh I don’t use any of those websites. I’m a BBC/Economist/Journal of Foreign Affairs man, myself.

You can’t vote for someone who isn’t a good person? Good luck with that.

As for policy, I’d love to hear what he has done that you find morally repugnant on social grounds. I certainly agree that some of his economic polices and the like I find shortsighted, but we were talking about morality, not prosperity.

[Hakons]

Enjoy never voting lol.

I'm voting for Warren in the Primary, most moral person I can find with the best policies, her naivety with native american heritage was embarrassing, makes me want to get a DNA test so I don't have the same mistake.
Yang is my 2nd choice, then Buttigieg, then Bernie, then Castro.

As a pro-life Christian, how can you support candidates that support abortion? After chastising other posters for supposedly supporting violence, a dubious claim to begin with, why do you support candidates that fall all over themselves trying to be the loudest voice in supporting the ripping apart of humans in the womb?

[Kowani]

Policy and him not being a good person.
I will not vote for anyone who isn't a good person and will vocally oppose them.
His policies too are objectively disastrous, taking emotion out of the picture.
"Drinking the Kool Aid".
Idk why you drink so much Kool Aid man, you should put that drink down and study facts, not Breitbart, Fox News, or The Blaze-all fake news/propaganda.

Oh I don’t use any of those websites. I’m a BBC/Economist/Journal of Foreign Affairs man, myself.

You can’t vote for someone who isn’t a good person? Good luck with that.

As for policy, I’d love to hear what he has done that you find morally repugnant on social grounds. I certainly agree that some of his economic polices and the like I find shortsighted, but we were talking about morality, not prosperity.

Attempting to rip away healthcare from people isn’t immoral to you? Like, I know I don’t have much ground to stand on in that department, but damn.

[Hakons]

That's... not remotely true. Voting for Trump isn't endorsing white supremacist violence. Voting for Trump is voting for Trump and Republicans. Neither Trump nor Republicans endorse or support white supremacist terrorism.

Neither party defends Christian Values in their entirety.

I addressed why.

Trump isn't hitler, he's Paul Von Hindenburg who through his idiocy empowered hitler.

Am I saying hitler 2.0 will rise? No.

But, Trump's incompetence and apathy, and only caring for himself leads to people-my people-being killed every day by white supremacist shooters and the killing of muslims which is horrific, as well as a rise in anti-semitism.

The Repbulican Party lost all claim of being the party for true Christians to me when they nominated Trump, and lost my respect-which I did have, a solid amount, despite disagreements.

I feel pressured into a 2 party system I hate. Electorally, only the Dems and GOP stand a chance until the next shakeup. I won't vote for the party that betrayed Christianity to me by nominating to me, the most demonic candidate I've ever seen, just from him talking, no "fake news edits".

Trump isn't empowering the next Hitler. He's certainly brought the standards of the Presidency very low, but he's not advocating for the murder of people. White supremacist terrorism has been forcibly denounced.

The Republican Party never claimed to be the party for true Christians. This is a friendly reminder that the majority of both parties identify as Christian. Practicing Christians certainly favor the GOP, but the GOP is officially secular.

I very much agree with you on how awful the two party system is. As a Catholic, I'm compelled to follow Catholic social teaching, and both parties fail pretty horribly. Democrats are fine with the murder of a bit under a million unborn children a year and target Catholic orphanages, while Republicans are fine with tearing apart immigrant families and denying refugees safety.

[Telconi]

As a pro-life Christian, how can you support candidates that supports abortion? After chastising other posters for supposedly supporting violence, a dubious claim to begin with, why do you support candidates that fall all over themselves trying to be the loudest voice in supporting the ripping apart of humans in the womb?

I recognize the argument of it being murder and their humanhood being a moral quandary, as in, debated. After understanding the world in which I live, with my choice between what I see as a party with one great evil-The Democrats-and a party with many great evils-The GOP-I've thrown my lot in with the less racist, hateful, vitriolic party that other than abortion and gun control fights for what I see as Christian.

Let's not forget the part where you support the vilification of other believers for doing the same thing you have done.

I'm also curious how you rectify that 'great evil' with 'good person'

[Hakons]

After understanding the world in which I live, with my choice between what I see as a party with one great evil-The Democrats-and a party with many great evils-The GOP-I've thrown my lot in with the less racist, hateful, vitriolic party that other than abortion and gun control fights for what I see as Christian.

According to your views:

Bad position of Democrats: abortion
Bad positions of Republicans: racism, hate, and vitriol

Thus, you choose the Democrats.

So, according to your views, racism, hate, and vitriol are worse for society than the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent humans?

[Tarsonis]

I’m not shilling for him. I didn’t vote for him, and I don’t support him. But if he beats whatever shitball comes out the left, it’s not exactly gonna break my heart. I can see how that nuance would be difficult for you to grasp.

You're still hoping a corrupt, destructive moron wins to Own The Libs.

More like it won’t ruin my day like it’d ruin yours

[Telconi]

According to your views:

Bad position of Democrats: abortion
Bad positions of Republicans: racism, hate, and vitriol

Thus, you choose the Democrats.

So, according to your views, racism, hate, and vitriol are worse for society than the killing of hundreds of thousands innocent humans?

The Holocaust is something that majorly defined my views and hardened my support for Israel and fight against racism.

And, I've understood that people say that it's scientifically not murder, so to me the science doesn't matter, but I understand people do base morality on science. I don't unless necessary. Most of my closest friends have been pro-choice as have people I've dated. Essentially, the reason I've thrived is because of the Democrats, while my home state-a Republican state-held me back. And they endorsed racism towards people like me, so I don't feel welcome in the Republican Party. My Pro-Life and Anti-gun Control positions were shockingly accepted, I wasn't demonized in the Democrat Party, and there's a lot of diversity, it's not mostly white, which makes me feel good(I don't want a overwhelmingly white or other skin color party being the one I identify with I want all of them to be involved and fairly treated and in positions of leadership, the GOP was beginning to do than then it took several drastic steps back.).


You have to realize, I don't feel welcome in the GOP. At all. While the Democrats welcomed me as one of their own. So, I see hope for reform, for justice.

In the GOP, I only see darkness and no hope, only my potential murder by radicals, when me reforming the Democrats and being murdered by a white supremacist will do more good and could allow more pro-life Democrats.

As such, I am in my view, forced to be a Democrat.
Many other Democrats I know feel the same way-even if they are pro-choice or anti-gun control. Many of them of non-white skin color, and who have the same perception of the GOP, Trump, etc. as I do.

>Scientifically not murder.

Oh boy here we go...

Also, you must have found a much nicer Democratic Party than I ever did.

[Telconi]

>Scientifically not murder.

Oh boy here we go...

Thanks for adding nothing to the conversation.

At least I kept my non-contributions short.

[Hakons]

I subscribe to this brand of pro-life by the way.

I've accepted premarital sex-and even engaged in it myself, I wanted to only have it with the person I'd marry but that didn't happen-as a fact of America and now I just want to help reduce unwanted pregnancy because I hate to see single mothers suffering, that's not what God Intended.

Absolutely, unwanted pregnancies and single motherhood must be treated better by American society and government.

To explain why I tend to support Republicans despite many intense disagreements, I would just say I think about abortion a lot. That's the issue I prioritize, and I don't see much anything else as approaching its importance. Denying asylum to migrants? Evil, and directly contrary to Christian teaching. Separating parents from children in ICE raids? Terrible, since Christian morality supersedes the legal mandate that illegal immigrants must be deported. But how does this compare to the state of abortion? Being denied asylum is one thing, but being killed within the womb is another. Being separated from your parents is one thing, but never seeing your parents, never being able to cling to your mother's breast, and being denied existence in the outside world - it is difficult to think of anything more evil. Life is intrinsically valuable, even impoverished or short ones, so to be denied even the briefest life outside the womb, despite not being even capable of warranting such decisive punishment, is just one of the greatest evils produced by humanity.

[Telconi]

Absolutely, unwanted pregnancies and single motherhood must be treated better by American society and government.

To explain why I tend to support Republicans despite many intense disagreements, I would just say I think about abortion a lot. That's the issue I prioritize, and I don't see much anything else as approaching its importance. Denying asylum to migrants? Evil, and directly contrary to Christian teaching. Separating parents from children in ICE raids? Terrible, since Christian morality supersedes the legal mandate that illegal immigrants must be deported. But how does this compare to the state of abortion? Being denied asylum is one thing, but being killed within the womb is another. Being separated from your parents is one thing, but never seeing your parents, never being able to cling to your mother's breast, and being denied existence in the outside world - it is difficult to think of anything more evil. Life is intrinsically valuable, even impoverished or short ones, so to be denied even the briefest life outside the womb, despite not being even capable of warranting such decisive punishment, is just one of the greatest evils produced by humanity.

I understand but I decided to think about what party does the most good.
To me, despite abortion, that's the Democrats.
I want to do good for people, not just fight evil.
EDIT: My defining issues are economic prosperity for everyone and immigration, with abortion as conflicting where to place.

Everybody does this.

[Electic]

...I want to do good for people, not just fight evil...

Do you think that this idea motivates those who believe the opposite of your positions?

[Hakons]

Absolutely, unwanted pregnancies and single motherhood must be treated better by American society and government.

To explain why I tend to support Republicans despite many intense disagreements, I would just say I think about abortion a lot. That's the issue I prioritize, and I don't see much anything else as approaching its importance. Denying asylum to migrants? Evil, and directly contrary to Christian teaching. Separating parents from children in ICE raids? Terrible, since Christian morality supersedes the legal mandate that illegal immigrants must be deported. But how does this compare to the state of abortion? Being denied asylum is one thing, but being killed within the womb is another. Being separated from your parents is one thing, but never seeing your parents, never being able to cling to your mother's breast, and being denied existence in the outside world - it is difficult to think of anything more evil. Life is intrinsically valuable, even impoverished or short ones, so to be denied even the briefest life outside the womb, despite not being even capable of warranting such decisive punishment, is just one of the greatest evils produced by humanity.

I understand but I decided to think about what party does the most good.
To me, despite abortion, that's the Democrats.
I want to do good for people, not just fight evil.
EDIT: My defining issues are economic prosperity for everyone and immigration, with abortion as conflicting where to place.

This is where I think my disagreement with this assessment is obvious.

How is a party doing good for people if it is supporting the killing of them? What good is found in abortion? How can economic prosperity be achieved for everyone when fetuses are killed, sometimes to maintain the lifestyle of the couple that produced him or her? If we are to achieve economic prosperity for everyone, killing people to obtain it isn't a morally justifiable way and directly contradicts the goal of prosperity for everyone. Bluntly, a dead fetus will never enjoy this prosperity for everyone.

How can one support immigration, yet ignore the plight of the unborn? I'm guessing you support immigration because you see it as fundamental to American society and want to take in the "poor and huddled masses, yearning to be free." So do I. But what is the point of this charity towards the migrant if we don't have charity towards our own children? It is great to take in the unwanted or the refugee, but if we kill our own unwanted children, it's worthless.

[Kowani]

I understand but I decided to think about what party does the most good.
To me, despite abortion, that's the Democrats.
I want to do good for people, not just fight evil.
EDIT: My defining issues are economic prosperity for everyone and immigration, with abortion as conflicting where to place.

This is where I think my disagreement with this assessment is obvious.

How is a party doing good for people if it is supporting the killing of them? What good is found in abortion? How can economic prosperity be achieved for everyone when fetuses are killed, sometimes to maintain the lifestyle of the couple that produced him or her? If we are to achieve economic prosperity for everyone, killing people to obtain it isn't a morally justifiable way and directly contradicts the goal of prosperity for everyone. Bluntly, a dead fetus will never enjoy this prosperity for everyone.

How can what support immigration, yet ignore the plight of the unborn? I'm guessing you support immigration because you see it as fundamental to American society and want to take in the "poor and huddled masses, yearning to be free." So do I. But what is the point of this charity towards the migrant if we don't have charity towards our own children? It is great to take in the unwanted or the refugee, but if we kill our own unwanted children, it's worthless.

Climate Change doesn’t care if you’re black, white, 10, 76, or a fetus. You can’t stick your head in the ground and wait for it to pass.

[Hakons]

This is where I think my disagreement with this assessment is obvious.

How is a party doing good for people if it is supporting the killing of them? What good is found in abortion? How can economic prosperity be achieved for everyone when fetuses are killed, sometimes to maintain the lifestyle of the couple that produced him or her? If we are to achieve economic prosperity for everyone, killing people to obtain it isn't a morally justifiable way and directly contradicts the goal of prosperity for everyone. Bluntly, a dead fetus will never enjoy this prosperity.

How can what support immigration, yet ignore the plight of the unborn? I'm guessing you support immigration because you see it as fundamental to American society and want to take in the "poor and huddled masses, yearning to be free." So do I. But what is the point of this charity towards the migrant if we don't have charity towards our own children? It is great to take in the unwanted or the refugee, but if we kill our own unwanted children, it's worthless.

I agree, but the GOP don't believe in these views of mine either. I'd never be welcomed.

Southern Democrats-According to a County Official I know originally from the South-tend to be Pro-Life and fair mix of ethnicities.
I have the dream of making the Southern Democrats, long considered the bane of the Democrats, the savior of the Democratic Party.

I was born in Utah. I'm steeped in Christianity. I understand and don't really disagree with you, but to me I was never given a choice, and won't be as long as the current Republican ideology prevails...

My only hope is reforming the Party on my own.

So you agree that abortion is a more pressing issue... but don't want to apply this principal to your political ideology and voting behavior? If abortion is more important, why is the Republican Party less welcoming than the Democratic Party? If you have extensive disagreements with Republicans, yet recognize that those disagreements pale in comparison to the abortion policy of the Democrats, why is the latter considered more welcoming and a better option?

The Democratic Party is moving away from you on abortion. If you don't believe me, watch the Democratic debates. 20 candidates, and not a single one wants to restrict abortion. 20 candidates falling over themselves in ever more support of abortion. Later-term abortion. Tax payer funded abortion. The leading candidate supports taking your tax dollars and using them to kill unborn children. I refuse to vote for Trump, but I'm downright incapable of voting for a candidate that support that.

[Hakons]

Climate Change doesn’t care if you’re black, white, 10, 76, or a fetus. You can’t stick your head in the ground and wait for it to pass.

That too.

I'm not given a choice-I must fight for climate change to protect the people and God's World, as we were given this world to take care of it.

People can't enjoy God's world if they're killed in the womb. People can't frolic in an eco-paradise world if they're killed. People can't struggle in a crappy, polluted world if they're killed. To struggle, but be alive, is better than being murdered. That is the Christian ethic you adhere to. Climate change will likely lead to the deaths of many people, but that doesn't lead us to think it is a more pressing issue than the humans killed now, every day, from abortion, especially when we consider how little we can effect the progress of climate change at this point. I certainly wish the GOP would offer up some guidance beyond leaving it to the market to save the environment (a pretty laughable premise).

[Saiwania]

I think we can safely assume that Andrew Yang is out of the race. He cried during a campaign event and showing emotion to this extent is a bad thing in politics. He's disqualified for the most part. It looks like he can't handle pressure. He's not going to make it close to the end of the primaries. We can narrow the field by 1 now, even though he thinks he's still a contender.

[Electic]

Do you believe that this idea motivates those who believe the opposite of your positions?

I used to.
Now their actions deem to be defined by hatred of Democrats, and they're willing to sacrifice core values to being Christian to me to do that, as well as genuinely doing better, just because Democrats believe in it, as well as being anti-science. Fighting Climate change(Another one of my core issues oops) is important and yet they don't believe in it. And a good many seem anti-vax, after Trump, we need mandatory vaccinations to save innocent lives that everyone agrees at this point is human, so they're knowingly risk lives because of fears of autism, as an autistic person I am mortified.

I agree with you on a lot of those. I also think I'd disagree with you on others. But I believe you mean to do good with your positions on politics. I encourage you to speak more, especially to those who respond in the same way you have to my question. Because we're all trying to muddle through along the ways that make the most sense to us.

[Sernatiao]

I feel bad for the non Americans in the thread.

[Pacomia]

I feel bad for the non Americans in the thread.

Why are there non-Americans in this thread? It’s an American election.