When did the Roman Empire Fall? A fun thread.

[Risottia]

Yeah, seriously, why would one drink that when there's wine?

You add it to your wine to make it sweeter, and use it as a condiment or ingredient in other things.

Go merum or drink the Aqua Marcia.

[Novus America]

395
After that it ceased to be a single functioning entity.

[Ifreann]

The rape of the Sabine women was the end of Rome. Why couldn't you have kept Rome pure, Romulus?

The choice was between mixing with the Sabines or staying manly gay.

And clearly Rome should have stayed manly gay. I'm sure Jupiter and Venus could have worked something out for them wrt reproduction.

Plus the Sabines were ginger, and there's no resisting the sex appeal of ginger women.

Preaching to the Hibernian choir.

[The Greater Low Countries]

Okay, so if Byzantium is considered Rome because it was an "official" successor state, then of course it died in 1453. If Byzantium's transition from a Roman-style power to a Greek-style power disqualifies it from being Rome, then the empire ended sometime between 500-800. If Byzantium is not an "official" successor state because Rome was not its capital, then 476 is not a good end date because the capital of the Western Roman Empire was not Rome either.

Also, what really makes the empire "The Roman Empire"? Germany named its kings Kaisers which is a Germanization of Caesars. Russia united a Roman-sized empire. Mussolini had Rome under his control and had an autocracy. All of these had the same religion (well, different denominations, but hey, they're kind of close).

If an empire is a living and changing thing, what gives it identity? Well, if the subject of that sentence was "a person," then voila! there would be a religious answer. But religion never answers this question because it doesn't assert that a god made empires in its own image. So we have to go with the nihilist answer here, which is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Well great, now we're back to where we started.

[Internationalist Bastard]

1922

[Ifreann]

1922

*checks watch*
Ummmmm

[United Muscovite Nations]

1922

Based and Turkpilled fellow Turan cCc

[Coruscanti Nations]

When the Crusaders decided to screw everything up.

[Napkizemlja]

January 16, 27 BC.

[Novus America]

When the Crusaders decided to screw everything up.

The rogue crusaders who sacked Constantinople were a small, rag tag force.
Had the ERE put up any real fight at all they could have won, easily.

Constantinople had fought off armies literally six times bigger, yet fell with barely a fight.

It was the incredible corruption and incompetence of the Angelos dynasty that destroyed the ERE (it was a member of that dynasty that promised to pay the crusaders to attack the city, to fight against another member of the dynasty who had seized power in a coup).

[Farnhamia]

January 16, 27 BC.

That's the end of the Republic, not the end of the Empire.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I’d say the 1453 A.D

[Napkizemlja]

January 16, 27 BC.

That's the end of the Republic, not the end of the Empire.

Rome was already an empire at the time and it is the death kneel of Roman civilization. What came after it was some other monster.

[Aclion]

I think 476 AD would be the most accurate date. If any major country, the USA for example, were to split in half, it really couldn't be considered the USA anymore.

Stares at 1861

[Farnhamia]

That's the end of the Republic, not the end of the Empire.

Rome was already an empire at the time and it is the death kneel of Roman civilization. What came after it was some other monster.

Uh huh. Got sources for Roman civilization dying in 27 BC? I'd love to learn. My degree in the Classics is somewhat old and any new ideas in the field are always welcome.

[Napkizemlja]

Rome was already an empire at the time and it is the death kneel of Roman civilization. What came after it was some other monster.

Uh huh. Got sources for Roman civilization dying in 27 BC? I'd love to learn. My degree in the Classics is somewhat old and any new ideas in the field are always welcome.

Rome was the Republic.

[Krasny-Volny]

The Roman Empire in the East was Roman, but also an entirely new beast. I would argue that the moving of the capital and seat of economic and political power to Constantinople broke the trend of continuity with the metropole Roman civilization of Classical Antiquity long before 1204.

I say the Rome of Antiquity ceased in 480 with the death of Julius Nepos, the last legal emperor of the West (as opposed to the illegitimate pretender Romulus Augustus).

[Novus America]

I think 476 AD would be the most accurate date. If any major country, the USA for example, were to split in half, it really couldn't be considered the USA anymore.

Stares at 1861

Had the CSA won it would be fair to say the US was broken and no longer existed as it had.
The difference is the Roman Empire collapsed into two separate parts and did not recover.

[Farnhamia]

Stares at 1861

Had the CSA won it would be fair to say the US was broken and no longer existed as it had.
The difference is the Roman Empire collapsed into two separate parts and did not recover.

The Roman Empire didn't collapse into two parts, the rule was legally divided among co-rulers. Four regional capitol cities replaced Rome, each closer to the borders so as to make defense more efficient. Although the western half of the Empire was invaded and occupied by barbarian tribes over the next several centuries, the rulers never relinquished their claims to the whole of the Empire as it had existed. Justinian attempted to reclaim the west but was ultimately unsuccessful. As for the United States, had the rebellious states won that war, the government of the USA would never have relinquished claim to the lost territory. Saying "no longer existed as it had" is a quibble.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The Roman Empire in the East was Roman, but also an entirely new beast. I would argue that the moving of the capital and seat of economic and political power to Constantinople broke the trend of continuity with the metropole Roman civilization of Classical Antiquity long before 1204.

I say the Rome of Antiquity ceased in 480 with the death of Julius Nepos, the last legal emperor of the West (as opposed to the illegitimate pretender Romulus Augustus).

The capital hadn't been Rome for centuries by 480.

[Farnhamia]

The Roman Empire in the East was Roman, but also an entirely new beast. I would argue that the moving of the capital and seat of economic and political power to Constantinople broke the trend of continuity with the metropole Roman civilization of Classical Antiquity long before 1204.

I say the Rome of Antiquity ceased in 480 with the death of Julius Nepos, the last legal emperor of the West (as opposed to the illegitimate pretender Romulus Augustus).

The capital hadn't been Rome for centuries by 480.

And I daresay the Emperor Zeno would have been amused to discover his realm wasn't Roman.

[Novus America]

Had the CSA won it would be fair to say the US was broken and no longer existed as it had.
The difference is the Roman Empire collapsed into two separate parts and did not recover.

The Roman Empire didn't collapse into two parts, the rule was legally divided among co-rulers. Four regional capitol cities replaced Rome, each closer to the borders so as to make defense more efficient. Although the western half of the Empire was invaded and occupied by barbarian tribes over the next several centuries, the rulers never relinquished their claims to the whole of the Empire as it had existed. Justinian attempted to reclaim the west but was ultimately unsuccessful. As for the United States, had the rebellious states won that war, the government of the USA would never have relinquished claim to the lost territory. Saying "no longer existed as it had" is a quibble.

After 395 it did. Arguably 306 or 308. They were not co-rulers anymore, but separate rulers of de facto separate states, who fought against each other instead of supporting each other.
Arguably it had really collapsed before then, but 395 was the last brief time it functioned as a single entity. Diocletian’s Tetrarchy destroyed the Empire.

It was a stupid system that destroyed the Roman Empire.
Effectively disbanded it.
And after 395 this was permanent.
It should be noted the division failed after only 20 years and resulted decades of civil wars.
In which the “co-rulers” spent more time trying to overthrow the other and conquer the other’s territory rather than co-rule.

After that any real unity between the two was gone.
De facto it no longer existed as a single state, regardless of de jure claims.

Sure the remaining states, had CSA won would still claim the whole thing, but claims mean nothing if you cannot enforce them.

[Krasny-Volny]

The capital hadn't been Rome for centuries by 480.

And I daresay the Emperor Zeno would have been amused to discover his realm wasn't Roman.

The Eastern Roman Empire was Roman, yes, but I argue if we're lending credence to the argument that the Empire after 1204 was no longer legitimately a Roman Empire because it no longer controlled Constantinople or maintained the pre-1204 institutions established there, then likewise we must accept that the Empire lost continuity with Classical Rome when the capital was moved to Constantinople.

As far as Rome not being the capital in 480, I'm perfectly aware that the imperial court in the West had long been based out of Milan and later Ravenna. However, it still controlled the city of Rome itself for much of its existence and still had a legitimate claim to the city until it ceased.

[The New California Republic]

When it decided to become Christian; so about 330 CE.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Rome lives on in our hearts ;_;