When did the Roman Empire Fall? A fun thread.

[Ifreann]

The rape of the Sabine women was the end of Rome. Why couldn't you have kept Rome pure, Romulus?

[Gormwood]

Making grape sugar in lead pans didn't help.

[Former Citizens of the Nimbus System]

The rape of the Sabine women was the end of Rome. Why couldn't you have kept Rome pure, Romulus? :(

I mean, Rome's Republican expansion, especially its early expansion, was very much tied to integrationist policies. We could well be learning about the Carthaginian Empire today without them.

[Conserative Morality]

I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with you. As someone currently studying Augustus, religion gave him significant legitimacy and promoting religious values was a core part of his imperial programme. He took on the office of Pontifex Maximus, Rome's chief priest, had his adoptive father Julius Caesar deified, established his ancestral links to Venus through works such as the Aeneid and statuary like the famous Prima Porta and took on Apollo as his patron after his victory at Actium in the sight of one of his temples; not only that, a huge amount of his reconstruction of Rome was dedicated to restoring and building temples, such as the Pantheon (through Agrippa) and the Temple of Mars Ultor in his forum. Religion provided a means for Augustus to establish his authority and influence Roman culture and as such formed a key part of imperial ideology from the beginning.

You're looking far too deeply into what were simply trappings of the way of thinking propagated by the Principate. The Pontifex Maximus was a role of great symbolism; the approval of the gods was necessary for the health of the Roman state. However, the underpinnings of the ideology of the Principate were founded on conceptions of Roman virtue and tradition. This is precisely why later mystery cults and even Christianity did not immediately tear apart the fabric of the state; there was an ideological core that did not rely on religious justification for its existence.

I could cite any number of building and infrastructure projects by Augustus, but that would not mean that theatres or roads were suddenly a core part of the imperial ideology. His reconstruction of temples was part of the general exultation of Roman culture in the aftermath of the civil war.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Making grape sugar in lead pans didn't help.

The lead poisoning theory holds little, if any weight.

[Ubekibekibekibekistanstan]

If it isn't in Rome, then it can't be fully Roman. I'll say 476, even though there may have been some level of continuity elsewhere. And some people trying to claim the label for themselves despite no obvious Romanness (i.e. the Holy Roman Empire).

It should be noted that Greek became "the sole official language" in the east "in the 7th century." link

[United Muscovite Nations]

If it isn't in Rome, then it can't be fully Roman. I'll say 476, even though there may have been some level of continuity elsewhere. And some people trying to claim the label for themselves despite no obvious Romanness (i.e. the Holy Roman Empire).

It should be noted that Greek became "the sole official language" in the east "in the 7th century." link

By that logic the Roman Empire fell well before the fall of the West, since Rome wasn't the capital for a long time.

[Ifreann]

Making grape sugar in lead pans didn't help.

The lead poisoning theory holds little, if any weight.

Hah, lead holding little weight.

[Kowani]

It ended in 1943 with the collapse of the Italian Empire

Mussolini’s floundering is most certainly not the Roman Empire.

[Former Citizens of the Nimbus System]

I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with you. As someone currently studying Augustus, religion gave him significant legitimacy and promoting religious values was a core part of his imperial programme. He took on the office of Pontifex Maximus, Rome's chief priest, had his adoptive father Julius Caesar deified, established his ancestral links to Venus through works such as the Aeneid and statuary like the famous Prima Porta and took on Apollo as his patron after his victory at Actium in the sight of one of his temples; not only that, a huge amount of his reconstruction of Rome was dedicated to restoring and building temples, such as the Pantheon (through Agrippa) and the Temple of Mars Ultor in his forum. Religion provided a means for Augustus to establish his authority and influence Roman culture and as such formed a key part of imperial ideology from the beginning.

You're looking far too deeply into what were simply trappings of the way of thinking propagated by the Principate. The Pontifex Maximus was a role of great symbolism; the approval of the gods was necessary for the health of the Roman state. However, the underpinnings of the ideology of the Principate were founded on conceptions of Roman virtue and tradition. This is precisely why later mystery cults and even Christianity did not immediately tear apart the fabric of the state; there was an ideological core that did not rely on religious justification for its existence.

I could cite any number of building and infrastructure projects by Augustus, but that would not mean that theatres or roads were suddenly a core part of the imperial ideology. His reconstruction of temples was part of the general exultation of Roman culture in the aftermath of the civil war.

Gah, I'd love to continue this debate but this stuff is exactly what I'm just finishing revising for an exam tomorrow! Telegram me so we can carry this on?

[Vistulange]

Byzantine is the continuation of ancient Rome so when Constantinople fell, the Roman Empire came to an end.

With that being said, the idea of Rome persisted. Way after the fall of Constantinople, many nations aspired to be the "3rd Reich", such as Nazi Germany, the Russian Empire and even the Ottomans. Some would argue that Rome will never truly die because it's an unique idea. Judging from the HRE which was neither Holy nor Roman, everything is possible.

Not to be nitpicky, but Nazi ideology didn't see the Roman Empire as the First Reich. Instead, the Holy Roman Empire was the First Reich, the German Empire the Second Reich, and Nazi Germany was...the Third Reich.

[Hammer Britannia]

It ended in 1943 with the collapse of the Italian Empire

Mussolini’s floundering is most certainly not the Roman Empire.

By that logic, neither is my claim to Alexander's Empire

Which is totally legitimate

[Former Citizens of the Nimbus System]

Byzantine is the continuation of ancient Rome so when Constantinople fell, the Roman Empire came to an end.

With that being said, the idea of Rome persisted. Way after the fall of Constantinople, many nations aspired to be the "3rd Reich", such as Nazi Germany, the Russian Empire and even the Ottomans. Some would argue that Rome will never truly die because it's an unique idea. Judging from the HRE which was neither Holy nor Roman, everything is possible.

Not to be nitpicky, but Nazi ideology didn't see the Roman Empire as the First Reich. Instead, the Holy Roman Empire was the First Reich, the German Empire the Second Reich, and Nazi Germany was...the Third Reich.

No love for Charlemagne? Huh.

Edit: Yes, Charlemagne was technically the origin of the title, but the Empire itself didn't exist until after his time.

[Valrifell]

The ascension of Diocletian in 284. The Dominate was a mistake, should've let the Crisis of the Third Century kill the Empire.

[Risottia]

A State religion provides the fundaments of the ideology of the ruling class.

The influence of Roman religion on the imperial ideology is not particularly significant; I'd discount that as a factor.

The point would be the influence of the Christian religion on the faux-imperial ideology.

[Risottia]

Making grape sugar in lead pans didn't help.

Wine was made in oak barrels and stored in amphorae.

[Risottia]

The rape of the Sabine women was the end of Rome. Why couldn't you have kept Rome pure, Romulus?

The choice was between mixing with the Sabines or staying manly gay. Plus the Sabines were ginger, and there's no resisting the sex appeal of ginger women.

[Conserative Morality]

Making grape sugar in lead pans didn't help.

Wine was made in oak barrels and stored in amphorae.

Defrutum, not wine.

[Hammer Britannia]

The rape of the Sabine women was the end of Rome. Why couldn't you have kept Rome pure, Romulus?

The choice was between mixing with the Sabines or staying manly gay. Plus the Sabines were ginger, and there's no resisting the sex appeal of ginger women.

True, but do you think they could of talked it over a coffee or something?

[Risottia]

If it isn't in Rome, then it can't be fully Roman. I'll say 476, even though there may have been some level of continuity elsewhere. And some people trying to claim the label for themselves despite no obvious Romanness (i.e. the Holy Roman Empire).

It should be noted that Greek became "the sole official language" in the east "in the 7th century." link

In 476 AD Rome already hadn't been the capital for centuries.

[Risottia]

Wine was made in oak barrels and stored in amphorae.

Defrutum, not wine.

Yeah, seriously, why would one drink that when there's wine?

[Conserative Morality]

The choice was between mixing with the Sabines or staying manly gay. Plus the Sabines were ginger, and there's no resisting the sex appeal of ginger women.

True, but do you think they could of talked it over a coffee or something?

Rape as in 'abduction', not as in sexually forcing themselves upon the women, though that probably happened to some degree.

[Risottia]

The choice was between mixing with the Sabines or staying manly gay. Plus the Sabines were ginger, and there's no resisting the sex appeal of ginger women.

True, but do you think they could of talked it over a coffee or something?

Nah, those useless Arabians didn't bring coffee to the Mediterranean until way after.

[Conserative Morality]

Defrutum, not wine.

Yeah, seriously, why would one drink that when there's wine?

You add it to your wine to make it sweeter, and use it as a condiment or ingredient in other things.

[Risottia]

True, but do you think they could of talked it over a coffee or something?

Rape as in 'abduction', not as in sexually forcing themselves upon the women, though that probably happened to some degree.

By the way that's basically how the ver sacrum worked, usually.