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Mandatory Environmental Service

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Derpy hooves

Yes, I support a mandatory environmental service
41
49%
No, I do not support a mandatory environmental service
35
42%
Should there be a mandatory environmental service?
8
10%
 
Total votes : 84

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Ostroeuropa
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Mandatory Environmental Service

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat May 11, 2019 3:29 pm

Shamelessly stolen idea from reddit because I love it.

Mandatory military service is often discussed in terms of duty, national security, and so on. Given the current environmental crisis facing the species which Is likely to continue into the near future, would you support a mandatory environmentalism service, some term of service people are required to serve between the ages of 18 and say 30, or face penalties, until the crisis has passed.

The typical benefits of mandatory military service translate over here, it could serve as a means to instill national values, teach skills, discipline, team work and so on, allow large scale projects to be completed, and protects us from a species scale disaster.

Activities could include forestry, recycling, litter picking, renewables creation and installation, and so on. The usual drawbacks include conscientious objection, but for this project such an argument doesn't appear to hold up. Nor do the dangers of militarization of a nation and how it makes war more appealing, in fact, the culture it would instill in the public could generate something akin to Prussian militarism of an environmental style and dramatically alter a societies behavior. The only argument against mandatory military service which appears to translate is the standard liberty argument, which can surely only be viewed relative to the threat posed.

So, discuss I guess?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat May 11, 2019 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Czechoeuropa
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Postby Czechoeuropa » Sat May 11, 2019 3:32 pm

Dumb idea imo. Also I do not believe the species is currently facing a crisis.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat May 11, 2019 3:33 pm

Czechoeuropa wrote:Dumb idea imo. Also I do not believe the species is currently facing a crisis.


Maybe someone barking orders at you and telling you to haul manure around for that kind of talk would get rid of that attitude :)
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Czechoeuropa
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Postby Czechoeuropa » Sat May 11, 2019 3:34 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Czechoeuropa wrote:Dumb idea imo. Also I do not believe the species is currently facing a crisis.


Maybe someone barking orders at you and telling you to haul manure around for that kind of talk would get rid of that attitude :)

No, it would definitely greatly reinforce "that attitude".

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat May 11, 2019 3:35 pm

I know Denmark used to offer a choice if you were called for national service. The military or more social service. I guess this would fall under the latter for them.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat May 11, 2019 3:35 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:I know Denmark used to offer a choice if you were called for national service. The military or more social service. I guess this would fall under the latter for them.


*shrug* that makes sense too.
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat May 11, 2019 3:37 pm

Quite aside from everything else, by the time these Prussian environmentalist values had propagated through society there wouldn't be an environment left to protect, not without other drastic actions being taken first.


By way of comparison, imagine proposing reinstituting national service when an invading army is shelling your last free city.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat May 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Ifreann wrote:Quite aside from everything else, by the time these Prussian environmentalist values had propagated through society there wouldn't be an environment left to protect, not without other drastic actions being taken first.


By way of comparison, imagine proposing reinstituting national service when an invading army is shelling your last free city.


That sounds like a good time to admit the draft should have been done a while ago to me.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sat May 11, 2019 3:39 pm

Not the whole time from age 18 to 30, but a year or two would be OK.
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The Brytish Isles
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Postby The Brytish Isles » Sat May 11, 2019 3:39 pm

I’d certainly support the implementation of such a measure in my country (UK), though I can’t see many people being happy with it. To be honest, environmentalism and taking care of the environment needs to be drilled into our heads until we actually start taking care of this planet as a society.
So yes, 100%.
Last edited by The Brytish Isles on Sat May 11, 2019 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat May 11, 2019 3:40 pm

Ifreann wrote:Quite aside from everything else, by the time these Prussian environmentalist values had propagated through society there wouldn't be an environment left to protect, not without other drastic actions being taken first.


By way of comparison, imagine proposing reinstituting national service when an invading army is shelling your last free city.


All MPs are forced to spend their summer break doing environment drudgery until they actually fix some problems.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat May 11, 2019 3:41 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Quite aside from everything else, by the time these Prussian environmentalist values had propagated through society there wouldn't be an environment left to protect, not without other drastic actions being taken first.


By way of comparison, imagine proposing reinstituting national service when an invading army is shelling your last free city.


That sounds like a good time to admit the draft should have been done a while ago to me.

Which won't really help matters.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sat May 11, 2019 3:45 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:I know Denmark used to offer a choice if you were called for national service. The military or more social service. I guess this would fall under the latter for them.


*shrug* that makes sense too.


At least for the US, mandatory military service for everyone would simply pull in far more people than they military could reasonably accommodate.
Or would want to, not everyone is suited for military service.

I am sure this would be the case for the UK as well.

But a national service, (I would not make it strictly mandatory per se, but you would have to complete it or lose access to most government benefits) would be good.
Some would go to do military service (those most motivated and qualified for it) but a revived CCC/CPS could be available as one of the alternative options.
Suitable environmental work should be included as an available path in a national service program.

Actually the US had something like this during WWII.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service
Last edited by Novus America on Sat May 11, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat May 11, 2019 3:55 pm

Novus America wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
*shrug* that makes sense too.


At least for the US, mandatory military service for everyone would simply pull in far more people than they military could reasonably accommodate.
Or would want to, not everyone is suited for military service.

I am sure this would be the case for the UK as well.

But a national service, (I would not make it strictly mandatory per se, but you would have to complete it or lose access to most government benefits) would be good.
Some would go to do military service (those most motivated and qualified for it) but a revived CCC/CPS could be available as one of the alternative options.
Suitable environmental work should be included as an available path in a national service program.

Actually the US had something like this during WWII.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service


Benefits like a passport. Otherwise you're just giving the rich an automatic out.

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The Two Jerseys
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Sat May 11, 2019 3:59 pm

Or we just reintroduce the draft and put the COs in this program.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sat May 11, 2019 4:00 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Novus America wrote:
At least for the US, mandatory military service for everyone would simply pull in far more people than they military could reasonably accommodate.
Or would want to, not everyone is suited for military service.

I am sure this would be the case for the UK as well.

But a national service, (I would not make it strictly mandatory per se, but you would have to complete it or lose access to most government benefits) would be good.
Some would go to do military service (those most motivated and qualified for it) but a revived CCC/CPS could be available as one of the alternative options.
Suitable environmental work should be included as an available path in a national service program.

Actually the US had something like this during WWII.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service


Benefits like a passport. Otherwise you're just giving the rich an automatic out.


Sure, and I would say voting too.
Also maybe completing it gets you a tax reduction.
That would keep the rich from dodging. Or make they pay a lot for doing so.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Sat May 11, 2019 4:00 pm

Ifreann wrote:Quite aside from everything else, by the time these Prussian environmentalist values had propagated through society there wouldn't be an environment left to protect, not without other drastic actions being taken first.


By way of comparison, imagine proposing reinstituting national service when an invading army is shelling your last free city.


I mean, if the enemy is shelling our last city, we might as well just enjoy the ride until it ends.
Last edited by Telconi on Sat May 11, 2019 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sat May 11, 2019 4:05 pm

The Two Jerseys wrote:Or we just reintroduce the draft and put the COs in this program.

Which actually has been done before.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivildienst
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Public_Service
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Skyhooked
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Postby Skyhooked » Sat May 11, 2019 4:05 pm

Mandatory national service, huh? More like lightly veiled attempt to make people do more things for free. Not too many people exactly love being forced to do things for free, so enviornmentalism can become even less popular than before.

Gotta add some pleasant carrot too, not only stick. Or folks may not care about quality and seek for every excuse to slack.
Last edited by Skyhooked on Sat May 11, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat May 11, 2019 4:09 pm

Skyhooked wrote:Mandatory national service, huh? More like lightly veiled attempt to make people do more things for free. Not too many people exactly love being forced to do things for free, so enviornmentalism can become even less popular than before.

Gotta add some pleasant carrot too, not only stick. Or folks may not care about quality and seek for every excuse to slack.


People doing national service get paid.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Sat May 11, 2019 4:11 pm

Skyhooked wrote:Mandatory national service, huh? More like lightly veiled attempt to make people do more things for free. Not too many people exactly love being forced to do things for free, so enviornmentalism can become even less popular than before.

Gotta add some pleasant carrot too, not only stick. Or folks may not care about quality and seek for every excuse to slack.


Well again I would not make it strictly mandatory per se.
Just very beneficial to do so.

Also people should get paid a reasonable wage for it.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Aeritai
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Postby Aeritai » Sat May 11, 2019 4:15 pm

That doesn't like a bad idea it both helps the Earth's enviroment and we can get jobless people employed with this type of service.
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Skyhooked
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Postby Skyhooked » Sat May 11, 2019 4:17 pm

Novus America wrote:
Skyhooked wrote:Mandatory national service, huh? More like lightly veiled attempt to make people do more things for free. Not too many people exactly love being forced to do things for free, so enviornmentalism can become even less popular than before.

Gotta add some pleasant carrot too, not only stick. Or folks may not care about quality and seek for every excuse to slack.


Well again I would not make it strictly mandatory per se.
Just very beneficial to do so.

Also people should get paid a reasonable wage for it.


That approach will make it more attractive, and help with unemployment too.
Skyhooked is MT/PMT with a few FT elements. Military is factbook only. NS stats are mostly non canon.
If you wanna know more about this haven of sin: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=418281&start=1

Our country offers: Alcohol, guns, cigars, weed, gambling, beaches and tons of souvenirs. And our current special: PL-74 Plasma rifle 25% discount!

Refreshing News:
Skyhooked is at war with Octavia, still holding agaisnt endless hordes of robots, vampires and traitors of humanity!/Global Defense Council was formed to help Earth hold agaisnt invasion./Luckily, we survived long enough and forces of Mandate of Humanity have arrived. (https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=484352)

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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Sat May 11, 2019 4:18 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Skyhooked wrote:Mandatory national service, huh? More like lightly veiled attempt to make people do more things for free. Not too many people exactly love being forced to do things for free, so enviornmentalism can become even less popular than before.

Gotta add some pleasant carrot too, not only stick. Or folks may not care about quality and seek for every excuse to slack.


People doing national service get paid.


So do soldiers, conscription is still bad tho.
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-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat May 11, 2019 4:26 pm

Telconi wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
People doing national service get paid.


So do soldiers, conscription is still bad tho.


That's nice. But it has nothing to do with the point I was addressing.

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