Learning about white privilege is anti-white, studies prove

[Ors Might]

There are racists in every race that I know but white privilege is a lie.

Prove it then.

It’s not really a privilege to not be treated as subhuman. That’s just the bare minimum standard of human decency.

The word privilege has connotations implying that it can easily be taken away and is undeserved. Is that really what you want to call basic human respect?

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Same goes for LiberNovusAmericae, since it seems their argumentation on this thread boils down to "I'm still mad about extremely localized and minor stuff that extremely online right-wingers told me to be mad about back in 2014".

I was a left-winger back in 2014 actually. I'm not angry because I watched some right-wing videos or cringe compilations; I'm angry because I was personally affected by some "localized and minor stuff" by some less than friendly left-wingers. You do not know me, so do not make assumptions.

[Nakena]

Same goes for LiberNovusAmericae, since it seems their argumentation on this thread boils down to "I'm still mad about extremely localized and minor stuff that extremely online right-wingers told me to be mad about back in 2014".

I was a left-winger back in 2014 actually. I'm not angry because I watched some right-wing videos or cringe compilations; I'm angry because I was personally affected by some "localized and minor stuff" by some less than friendly left-wingers. You do not know me, so do not make assumptions.

What was this "localized and minor stuff"?

[Liriena]

Friendly reminder that the Incas and the Chinese were a thing long before "muh western civilization" came along to "civilize" them and they were pretty damned civilized all on their own.

With all due respect, if you "western civilization" stans wanna keep at it, at least do your supposed heritage of civilized white greatness a service and actually study history.

My great grandmother was a Creek Native American so I'm not 100% white. The Incas and Chinese weren't civilized as you call them. So I'm a racist for defending my European heritage is what your saying because I'm proud of both my heritages.

The Inca and the Chinese weren't civilized to you? Why exactly? The Incas were the precocious masters of mountainous infrastructure, and in China you had a massive empire with its own ambitious infrastructure, a vibrant cultural and intellectual life, plenty of scientific innovation and an intricate system of government that pretty much pioneered the idea of a meritocratic bureaucracy.

At least pretend that you know anything about non-western history.

[Ostroeuropa]

My great grandmother was a Creek Native American so I'm not 100% white. The Incas and Chinese weren't civilized as you call them. So I'm a racist for defending my European heritage is what your saying because I'm proud of both my heritages.

The Inca and the Chinese weren't civilized to you? Why exactly? The Incas were the precocious masters of mountainous infrastructure, and in China you had a massive empire with its own ambitious infrastructure, a vibrant cultural and intellectual life, plenty of scientific innovation and an intricate system of government that pretty much pioneered the idea of a meritocratic bureaucracy.

At least pretend that you know anything about non-western history.

He said most of the world, not all of it. People who take western civilization seriously as a civilizing force tend to say east asia is an exception to the rule, hell, even the Nazis did.

[Liriena]

This isn't "political incorrectness". This is factual incorrectness.

There are racists in every race that I know but white privilege is a lie.

So your opinion is a string of ignorant non sequiturs. Very cool.

[Liriena]

Same goes for LiberNovusAmericae, since it seems their argumentation on this thread boils down to "I'm still mad about extremely localized and minor stuff that extremely online right-wingers told me to be mad about back in 2014".

I was a left-winger back in 2014 actually. I'm not angry because I watched some right-wing videos or cringe compilations; I'm angry because I was personally affected by some "localized and minor stuff" by some less than friendly left-wingers. You do not know me, so do not make assumptions.

I was personally affected by less than friendly Catholics but I don't use that as an argument to say that all Catholics are assholes.

[Ostroeuropa]

I was a left-winger back in 2014 actually. I'm not angry because I watched some right-wing videos or cringe compilations; I'm angry because I was personally affected by some "localized and minor stuff" by some less than friendly left-wingers. You do not know me, so do not make assumptions.

I was personally affected by less than friendly Catholics but I don't use that as an argument to say that all Catholics are assholes.

Catholics who make organizations to lobby for change based on catholic doctrine are a different category than ordinary catholics.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I was a left-winger back in 2014 actually. I'm not angry because I watched some right-wing videos or cringe compilations; I'm angry because I was personally affected by some "localized and minor stuff" by some less than friendly left-wingers. You do not know me, so do not make assumptions.

I was personally affected by less than friendly Catholics but I don't use that as an argument to say that all Catholics are assholes.

I never said anything about all leftists. I'm criticising the ones that use similar rhetoric to the ones I've encountered, which just happenes to include many on this board.

[Proctopeo]

I was personally affected by less than friendly Catholics but I don't use that as an argument to say that all Catholics are assholes.

I never said anything about all leftists. I'm criticising the ones that use similar rhetoric to the ones I've encountered, which just happenes to include many on this board.

I'm curious, what type of rhetoric in particular? I think I might be thinking of the same sorts.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I never said anything about all leftists. I'm criticising the ones that use similar rhetoric to the ones I've encountered, which just happenes to include many on this board.

I'm curious, what type of rhetoric in particular? I think I might be thinking of the same sorts.

Calling out "mansplaining" and using man as a derogatory suffix in various words. The various types of "privilege" some factions of the left love to complain about. I don't see nearly as much of the former here as the latter, but still. There also seems to be the go to "opposing views are motivated by racism" argument as well.

[Proctopeo]

I'm curious, what type of rhetoric in particular? I think I might be thinking of the same sorts.

Calling out "mansplaining" and using man as a derogatory suffix in various words. The various types of "privilege" some factions of the left love to complain about. I don't see nearly as much of the former here as the latter, but still. There also seems to be the go to "opposing views are motivated by racism" argument as well.

Ah yeah those types fucking suck on basically every level.
They're definitely a factor in my drift away from leftism, but by no means the only one.

[Liriena]

Calling out "mansplaining" and using man as a derogatory suffix in various words. The various types of "privilege" some factions of the left love to complain about. I don't see nearly as much of the former here as the latter, but still. There also seems to be the go to "opposing views are motivated by racism" argument as well.

Ah yeah those types fucking suck on basically every level.
They're definitely a factor in my drift away from leftism, but by no means the only one.

I can understand on an empathic level how those things may have driven many people right-wards, although I still feel that it needs to be pointed out how illogical that transition sometimes is, at least when looked at from the outside.

Some leftists say questionable things on matters of race and gender? I can see that leading someone to say "if the left believes in mansplaining and white privilege, I don't want to be left-wing". What doesn't seem rational to me is that line of thought often being followed by "and therefor I also oppose labor rights, universal health care and anti-discrimination protections for trans people".

[Galloism]

Ah yeah those types fucking suck on basically every level.
They're definitely a factor in my drift away from leftism, but by no means the only one.

I can understand on an empathic level how those things may have driven many people right-wards, although I still feel that it needs to be pointed out how illogical that transition sometimes is, at least when looked at from the outside.

Some leftists say questionable things on matters of race and gender? I can see that leading someone to say "if the left believes in mansplaining and white privilege, I don't want to be left-wing". What doesn't seem rational to me is that line of thought often being followed by "and therefor I also oppose labor rights, universal health care and anti-discrimination protections for trans people".

I mean, it gets tricky for sure. Because the world is so utterly backwards now, it was democrats in Washington state who repealed their antidiscrimination law regarding college admissions, with Republicans opposing said repeal, and in California it was the democrats who worked to pass a sexist discrimination law which stands at odds with the Civil Rights Act, while Republicans opposed said discrimination.

And it was the Obama administration which put in as regulation a college policy which had severe discriminatory effects against black men, while the Trump administration has proposed a partial fix - trying to protect black men from said discriminatory effects by instituting fair procedure rules to their betterment.

The world is definitely not the world I learned about growing up. All of this seems completely backwards to me.

[Des-Bal]

I can understand on an empathic level how those things may have driven many people right-wards, although I still feel that it needs to be pointed out how illogical that transition sometimes is, at least when looked at from the outside.

Some leftists say questionable things on matters of race and gender? I can see that leading someone to say "if the left believes in mansplaining and white privilege, I don't want to be left-wing". What doesn't seem rational to me is that line of thought often being followed by "and therefor I also oppose labor rights, universal health care and anti-discrimination protections for trans people".

It's perfectly rational, they're kitting up for a fight. When you set someone up as the other you guarantee their emnity and they line up with your other enemies. The left and right are tribes being filled with coalitions of people with various ideas fighting coalitions of people with various other ideas.

One guy is afraid his guns are going to be taken, one guy is afraid his business will be regulated out of existence, and one guy is afraid his daughter is going to share a bathroom with biological males. These three guys don't give a solitary fuck about each other's issues but by signing on with them anyway or at least declining to oppose them they get or avoid losing support for their own pet issues. At the same time they're now in a position where agreeing with these allies is beneficial and disagreeing is harmful so they're more inclined to be open to their perspectives.

[Hanafuridake]

The Inca and the Chinese weren't civilized to you? Why exactly? The Incas were the precocious masters of mountainous infrastructure, and in China you had a massive empire with its own ambitious infrastructure, a vibrant cultural and intellectual life, plenty of scientific innovation and an intricate system of government that pretty much pioneered the idea of a meritocratic bureaucracy.

At least pretend that you know anything about non-western history.

He said most of the world, not all of it. People who take western civilization seriously as a civilizing force tend to say east asia is an exception to the rule, hell, even the Nazis did.

Those people are just spreading the same old model minority nonsense, and have no actual knowledge of history, because East Asia was strongly shaped by other parts of Asia too (such as India, everyone forgets about Buddhism).

[Kowani]

The Inca and the Chinese weren't civilized to you? Why exactly? The Incas were the precocious masters of mountainous infrastructure, and in China you had a massive empire with its own ambitious infrastructure, a vibrant cultural and intellectual life, plenty of scientific innovation and an intricate system of government that pretty much pioneered the idea of a meritocratic bureaucracy.

At least pretend that you know anything about non-western history.

He said most of the world, not all of it. People who take western civilization seriously as a civilizing force tend to say east asia is an exception to the rule, hell, even the Nazis did.

He also said that the Chinese weren’t civilized, and they’re pretty East Asian.

[Loben The 2nd]

I can understand on an empathic level how those things may have driven many people right-wards, although I still feel that it needs to be pointed out how illogical that transition sometimes is, at least when looked at from the outside.

Some leftists say questionable things on matters of race and gender? I can see that leading someone to say "if the left believes in mansplaining and white privilege, I don't want to be left-wing". What doesn't seem rational to me is that line of thought often being followed by "and therefor I also oppose labor rights, universal health care and anti-discrimination protections for trans people".

I mean, it gets tricky for sure. Because the world is so utterly backwards now, it was democrats in Washington state who repealed their antidiscrimination law regarding college admissions, with Republicans opposing said repeal, and in California it was the democrats who worked to pass a sexist discrimination law which stands at odds with the Civil Rights Act, while Republicans opposed said discrimination.

And it was the Obama administration which put in as regulation a college policy which had severe discriminatory effects against black men, while the Trump administration has proposed a partial fix - trying to protect black men from said discriminatory effects by instituting fair procedure rules to their betterment.

The world is definitely not the world I learned about growing up. All of this seems completely backwards to me.

*honk honk* welcome to clown world.

[Proctopeo]

Ah yeah those types fucking suck on basically every level.
They're definitely a factor in my drift away from leftism, but by no means the only one.

I can understand on an empathic level how those things may have driven many people right-wards, although I still feel that it needs to be pointed out how illogical that transition sometimes is, at least when looked at from the outside.

Some leftists say questionable things on matters of race and gender? I can see that leading someone to say "if the left believes in mansplaining and white privilege, I don't want to be left-wing". What doesn't seem rational to me is that line of thought often being followed by "and therefor I also oppose labor rights, universal health care and anti-discrimination protections for trans people".

Well, part of not being left-wing is not being left-wing. Extensive labor rights, state-run health care, and speech restrictions based upon the target of said speech are generally left-wing positions, and thus someone drifting to the right due to a newfound distaste or dissatisfaction with leftism would find themselves more opposed to those with time.

I can understand on an empathic level how those things may have driven many people right-wards, although I still feel that it needs to be pointed out how illogical that transition sometimes is, at least when looked at from the outside.

Some leftists say questionable things on matters of race and gender? I can see that leading someone to say "if the left believes in mansplaining and white privilege, I don't want to be left-wing". What doesn't seem rational to me is that line of thought often being followed by "and therefor I also oppose labor rights, universal health care and anti-discrimination protections for trans people".

It's perfectly rational, they're kitting up for a fight. When you set someone up as the other you guarantee their emnity and they line up with your other enemies. The left and right are tribes being filled with coalitions of people with various ideas fighting coalitions of people with various other ideas.

One guy is afraid his guns are going to be taken, one guy is afraid his business will be regulated out of existence, and one guy is afraid his daughter is going to share a bathroom with biological males. These three guys don't give a solitary fuck about each other's issues but by signing on with them anyway or at least declining to oppose them they get or avoid losing support for their own pet issues. At the same time they're now in a position where agreeing with these allies is beneficial and disagreeing is harmful so they're more inclined to be open to their perspectives.

Also, this. Often it's one big issue that pushes someone away; the rest needn't come, but may with time.

[Des-Bal]

I mean, it gets tricky for sure. Because the world is so utterly backwards now, it was democrats in Washington state who repealed their antidiscrimination law regarding college admissions, with Republicans opposing said repeal, and in California it was the democrats who worked to pass a sexist discrimination law which stands at odds with the Civil Rights Act, while Republicans opposed said discrimination.

And it was the Obama administration which put in as regulation a college policy which had severe discriminatory effects against black men, while the Trump administration has proposed a partial fix - trying to protect black men from said discriminatory effects by instituting fair procedure rules to their betterment.

The world is definitely not the world I learned about growing up. All of this seems completely backwards to me.

Two decades ago the NAACP was fighting alongside republicans to protect a scheme to minimize the impact black voters had on elections. That's the secret, we've always been in Clown World.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Calling out "mansplaining" and using man as a derogatory suffix in various words. The various types of "privilege" some factions of the left love to complain about. I don't see nearly as much of the former here as the latter, but still. There also seems to be the go to "opposing views are motivated by racism" argument as well.

Ah yeah those types fucking suck on basically every level.
They're definitely a factor in my drift away from leftism, but by no means the only one.

I think what moved me right economically is reading about the disaster that is Venezuela, and some leftists that I used to respect engaging in denial or apoligetics.

[Liriena]

He said most of the world, not all of it. People who take western civilization seriously as a civilizing force tend to say east asia is an exception to the rule, hell, even the Nazis did.

He also said that the Chinese weren’t civilized, and they’re pretty East Asian.

And I only cited the Incas and the Chinese as two examples that I assumed would be widely known. I could cite even more civilizations, societies which definitely fit at least the most basic and academically agreed on definition of "civilized", which our fellow poster implicitly dismissed.

It is one thing to try to reassert the value of "western civilization" on its own terms. It's another to then go and claim that humanity as a whole is only civilized thanks to "western civilization". That is just "white man's burden" glazed over with extra stupidity.

I can understand on an empathic level how those things may have driven many people right-wards, although I still feel that it needs to be pointed out how illogical that transition sometimes is, at least when looked at from the outside.

Some leftists say questionable things on matters of race and gender? I can see that leading someone to say "if the left believes in mansplaining and white privilege, I don't want to be left-wing". What doesn't seem rational to me is that line of thought often being followed by "and therefor I also oppose labor rights, universal health care and anti-discrimination protections for trans people".

Well, part of not being left-wing is not being left-wing. Extensive labor rights, state-run health care, and speech restrictions based upon the target of said speech are generally left-wing positions, and thus someone drifting to the right due to a newfound distaste or dissatisfaction with leftism would find themselves more opposed to those with time.

Can I ask you about your personal experience in that regard? Does, for example, the whole "white privilege" thing make you feel less likely to support stuff like criminal justice reform? Does feminist rhetoric make you feel less likely to support LGBT+ rights or abortion rights? At which point did you, presumably, start opposing universal healthcare or paid family leave, and why?

[Kowani]

I mean, it gets tricky for sure. Because the world is so utterly backwards now, it was democrats in Washington state who repealed their antidiscrimination law regarding college admissions, with Republicans opposing said repeal, and in California it was the democrats who worked to pass a sexist discrimination law which stands at odds with the Civil Rights Act, while Republicans opposed said discrimination.

And it was the Obama administration which put in as regulation a college policy which had severe discriminatory effects against black men, while the Trump administration has proposed a partial fix - trying to protect black men from said discriminatory effects by instituting fair procedure rules to their betterment.

The world is definitely not the world I learned about growing up. All of this seems completely backwards to me.

Two decades ago the NAACP was fighting alongside republicans to protect a scheme to minimize the impact black voters had on elections. That's the secret, we've always been in Clown World.

You’ Excuse me if I want a source.

[Ostroeuropa]

Can I ask you about your personal experience in that regard? Does, for example, the whole "white privilege" thing make you feel less likely to support stuff like criminal justice reform? Does feminist rhetoric make you feel less likely to support LGBT+ rights or abortion rights? At which point did you, presumably, start opposing universal healthcare or paid family leave, and why?

It makes me less able to participate in organizations and groups that push those policies because i'll be thrown out or ostracized, and more inclined to spend my time working on other issues related to fighting anti-white racism and misandry, often with right-wingers, and thereby boosting their profile and influence.

I'd say it's more a case of supporting those issues but not being activist as regards them, and in some ways my activism undermines them. That won't stop me doing it, it just means I want more left wing anti-feminists involved so that is no longer the case.

Trying to convince the right wing to change their minds wont stop me working with them, because we don't ostracize eachother and try and destroy eachothers influence, and have nobody else to work with on these topics.

Meanwhile I cannot work with the left and try and change their minds, largely because they wont let me.

It makes me more inclined to oppose some left wing foreign policy things based purely out of realpolitik, and i'm sure you can guess which ones I suddenly decided to flip on, comrade.

Crimea was always Russian, give us money daddy putin.

I'm also more likely to oppose left wing efforts in general on things like criminal justice reform, because they keep fucking it up and making it sexist. I wouldn't support a right wing justice reform that up and decided white males needed less time in prison either.

I'm opposed to the LGBT community in large part because of frequent bans on Mens Rights LGBT folk marching under that banner, and so deny their legitimacy as a representative community.

Abortion rights?
Again, a matter of activism. But broadly speaking while i'm in favor of abortion rights, emotionally I don't care anymore. I'll be sad when an MRA woman wants an abortion. I am bored of solidarity with those who offer none in return. In the event it's criminalized, i'd likely vote against it being legalized unless LPS is included in the deal.

The point of not wanting to offer solidarity to people who are constantly hostile to you and offer none in return probably explains a lot about modern politics and the rise of the far-right.

[Proctopeo]

Well, part of not being left-wing is not being left-wing. Extensive labor rights, state-run health care, and speech restrictions based upon the target of said speech are generally left-wing positions, and thus someone drifting to the right due to a newfound distaste or dissatisfaction with leftism would find themselves more opposed to those with time.

Can I ask you about your personal experience in that regard?

I mean, I guess. It happened gradually over time and I can't relay specifics.

Does, for example, the whole "white privilege" thing make you feel less likely to support stuff like criminal justice reform?

Doesn't make me feel any more likely, but not any less likely either. By and large I see the two as separate.

Does feminist rhetoric make you feel less likely to support LGBT+ rights or abortion rights?

Again, feminist rhetoric and GLBT+ rights are largely separate. I support both, though the latter not to any extreme, and I'm largely "against the grain" with much of the GLBT community.

Also, you seem to be using a very simplistic view of the right...

At which point did you, presumably, start opposing universal healthcare or paid family leave, and why?

UHC, I don't support, paid family leave, to an extent I do support.
I never really supported UHC. The main reasons being government overreach, government incompetence, and government corruption. Fundamentally it's not a bad idea, it's just that in practice it requires great care (and luck) to make it work out for the benefit of all without giving the government too much power over people's lives and too much work to try and squeeze through its bureaucracy.