NationStates

Cannot think of a name wrote:

Cataluna wrote:In what way are women the "primay enforcers" of male gender roles?

I imagine it's the cliche of women attacking a man's masculinity or demanding masculinity from men in terms of behavior or societal roles. Which surely does exist. I haven't really experienced it, it's mostly dudes I feel I need to hit with a blast from a hose when they find out I'm friends with a hot chick with no plans to try and fuck her, but everyone's mileage varies.

Your experience isn't the norm.

<---Source: Dude who doesn't agree with current gender roles and who also hasn't had a single girl/women show any modicum of interest in them.

Cataluna wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:I imagine it's the cliche of women attacking a man's masculinity or demanding masculinity from men in terms of behavior or societal roles. Which surely does exist. I haven't really experienced it, it's mostly dudes I feel I need to hit with a blast from a hose when they find out I'm friends with a hot chick with no plans to try and fuck her, but everyone's mileage varies.

Speaking as a trans woman, women have been more accepting of me shedding a male gender role than men have, but apparently that's invalid.
To be clear, I think bromances are really sweet, and so do most other women I know.

I am a big, big champion of treating friendships regardless of gender combination, the same way we treat romances. We do get stories about bromances like Tag etc and woman friends groups, but it's a rare bird to see platonic relationships between a man and a woman without it being a 'will they/won't they' with a strong preference for 'they will.' And I think it sucks.

At worst, and this is generally around amateur comics that I wound up near out of boredom, is when any expression about difficulty navigating the shifting sands of modern masculinity is regarded as 'fragile masculinity,' but no one likes those people so it's cool.

New haven america wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:I imagine it's the cliche of women attacking a man's masculinity or demanding masculinity from men in terms of behavior or societal roles. Which surely does exist. I haven't really experienced it, it's mostly dudes I feel I need to hit with a blast from a hose when they find out I'm friends with a hot chick with no plans to try and fuck her, but everyone's mileage varies.

Your experience isn't the norm.

<---Source: Dude who doesn't agree with current gender roles and who also hasn't had a single girl/women show any modicum of interest in them.

Um...maybe I'm reading what you wrote wrong but it kind of sounds like you shared my experience but then told me it wasn't the same? That was some confusing shit, man.

Your experience is quite atypical in this regard, if the research we have (which isn’t a lot, admittedly), is to be believed.

That being said, my experience tends to match the research. If I tell another man my work or financial or personal worries, they tend to listen, be sympathetic, and try to offer suggestions. My female friends though tend to just try to change the subject or throw out platitudes like “you’ll power through it” and then change the subject.

Nana being the one very notable exception that proves the rule.

Sounds like you need better female friends >_>
Regardless, I see where you're coming from here. It's hard for different genders to reach across the gap to each other, and it's awesome you have male friends who are supportive.

The Rich Port wrote:

Cataluna wrote:Speaking as a trans woman, women have been more accepting of me shedding a male gender role than men have, but apparently that's invalid.
To be clear, I think bromances are really sweet, and so do most other women I know.

I've also... Never been shamed by a woman for my emotional vulnerabilities. A woman's also never made fun of how comparatively small my penis is, for that matter.

In fact, one of the first identified modern "bromances" was Frodo and Samwise from the Lord of the Rings movie, and there was a huge backlash from men that it was sick, wrong, and gay.

It’s actually more likely you just don’t give women the status of “actor” in your mind as easily. There’s a very disturbing trend in society (that we all have to fight against) to classify women as objects acted upon and men as actors responsible for their actions.

This manifests in both good and bad ways for women. In the arena of social shaming however, it allows them to engage in it without you as easily remembering to blame them (individually) for it.

When you start correcting the bias (which, admittedly, is going to be a work in progress for most of us), you start to notice how many things you internalized without analyzing.

Galloism wrote:

The Rich Port wrote:
... Huh?

Huh what?

Cannot think of a name wrote:I imagine it's the cliche of women attacking a man's masculinity or demanding masculinity from men in terms of behavior or societal roles. Which surely does exist. I haven't really experienced it, it's mostly dudes I feel I need to hit with a blast from a hose when they find out I'm friends with a hot chick with no plans to try and fuck her, but everyone's mileage varies.

Your experience is quite atypical in this regard, if the research we have (which isn’t a lot, admittedly), is to be believed.

That being said, my experience tends to match the research. If I tell another man my work or financial or personal worries, they tend to listen, be sympathetic, and try to offer suggestions. My female friends though tend to just try to change the subject or throw out platitudes like “you’ll power through it” and then change the subject.

Nana being the one very notable exception that proves the rule.

I have never seen gender as the deciding factor in how much people give a shit about my woes, rather how well I know the person. Like, if my friend I know well and hang out with etc tells me they're going through some rough shit, I'm all ears.

If the dude next to me on the bus starts telling me all about how their life sucks, I might become really interesting in my phone.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

New haven america wrote:Your experience isn't the norm.

<---Source: Dude who doesn't agree with current gender roles and who also hasn't had a single girl/women show any modicum of interest in them.

Um...maybe I'm reading what you wrote wrong but it kind of sounds like you shared my experience but then told me it wasn't the same? That was some confusing shit, man.

No, I was more going on about how not being stereotypically masculine doesn't help in a lot of regards.

For example, like Gallo, I have no problem talking about serious things with my male acquittances or friends, but when it comes to my female acquittances or friends then I need to add some type of humor or just avoid the topic entirely because they're going to be changing the topic as soon as they possibly can.

Galloism wrote:

The Rich Port wrote:
I've also... Never been shamed by a woman for my emotional vulnerabilities. A woman's also never made fun of how comparatively small my penis is, for that matter.

In fact, one of the first identified modern "bromances" was Frodo and Samwise from the Lord of the Rings movie, and there was a huge backlash from men that it was sick, wrong, and gay.

It’s actually more likely you just don’t give women the status of “actor” in your mind as easily. There’s a very disturbing trend in society (that we all have to fight against) to classify women as objects acted upon and men as actors responsible for their actions.

This manifests in both good and bad ways for women. In the arena of social shaming however, it allows them to engage in it without you as easily remembering to blame them (individually) for it.

When you start correcting the bias (which, admittedly, is going to be a work in progress for most of us), you start to notice how many things you internalized without analyzing.

Hey speaking of correcting bias.

The research was based on 30 interviews about the romantic and “bromantic” lives of male undergrads, each of whom had at least one bromance and one romance in the past year.

This doesn't sound like a serious study. At all. It's nice of the Ottawa Citizen to not provide a name or a link to this alleged study so I can read it and let me judge for myself.

Also, this was lasted UPDATED in 2017, 2 years ago. How old is this study, exactly, and how'd I never hear about this until now?

Also, what bias should I be correcting? I don't particularly care what fulfills you spiritually and sexually, whether it's a man or a woman.

Putting the blame on emotional shaming on women sounds like a load of horseshit.

New haven america wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:Um...maybe I'm reading what you wrote wrong but it kind of sounds like you shared my experience but then told me it wasn't the same? That was some confusing shit, man.

No, I was more going on about how not being stereotypically masculine doesn't help in a lot of regards.

For example, like Gallo, I have no problem talking about serious things with my male acquittances or friends, but when it comes to my female acquittances or friends then I need to add some type of humor or just avoid the topic entirely because they're going to be changing the topic as soon as they possibly can.

Oh. I don't think I touched on that at all in my post, so I'm still confused. But whatever.

I will say that there are a lot of women who take an active interest in the ways my life has gone to shit and will actually check in on me on occasion, none of which have any interest in my penis. There are also dudes who do the same. I don't have a demographic that I can divide those who give a shit and don't give a shit about me I can use except how well we know each other.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

Galloism wrote:Huh what?



Your experience is quite atypical in this regard, if the research we have (which isn’t a lot, admittedly), is to be believed.

That being said, my experience tends to match the research. If I tell another man my work or financial or personal worries, they tend to listen, be sympathetic, and try to offer suggestions. My female friends though tend to just try to change the subject or throw out platitudes like “you’ll power through it” and then change the subject.

Nana being the one very notable exception that proves the rule.

I have never seen gender as the deciding factor in how much people give a shit about my woes, rather how well I know the person. Like, if my friend I know well and hang out with etc tells me they're going through some rough shit, I'm all ears.

If the dude next to me on the bus starts telling me all about how their life sucks, I might become really interesting in my phone.

Fair, but there’s a trend here.

Not that men don’t enforce, they do, but primary enforcers are women, which makes sense as they also have the majority of social power. So telling men to stop enforcing the male gender role is good, but misses the majority of the problem.

Men, by and large, would love to shed the male gender role. Hell, some even engaging in bromances just to avoid enforcement of it. Like literally that was the reasoning given.

We need to tell women to stop forcing it on them.

Cataluna wrote:I understand your sentiment here, but I think it misunderstands fundamentally that toxic masculinity addresses a systemic problem as opposed to an individual one.

I don't think you do.

"Toxic masculinity" is a catch all term. It means nothing. Officially it is defined negative aspects of masculinity. Unofficially it's "negative behaviours reinforced by men", which could be anything from being too confident to liking traditionally masculine things. What it principally represents is a fundamental lack of understanding of men and of masculinity, and attributes negative behaviours as being part of the male psychy, or socialised and rationalised by society as being attributes of men.

It's easy to see it as man-blaming, but truth be told, men are victims of it too. And while it'd be easy to say that "women's rights will make it all better", it's obviously more complex than that. Instead, working with men to reach a healthier masculinity and feminity will be beneficial to everyone. At least, that's the way I see it.

You can reach a "healthier masculinity" without tearing men down to do so.

Cataluna wrote:In what way are women the "primay enforcers" of male gender roles?

Women tend to be the primary enforcers of male gender roles because the way relationships tend to work is that the man is expected to conform to what you would call "toxic masculinity". Women expect their partners to be dominant, to take the initiative, to be the primary bread winners, etc. These are all roles and expectations in which men are expected to fulfill, and failure to do so results in rejection and ridicule. If you're familiar with the use of the term "Peter Pan syndrome", you'd know what I am talking about.

Galloism wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:I have never seen gender as the deciding factor in how much people give a shit about my woes, rather how well I know the person. Like, if my friend I know well and hang out with etc tells me they're going through some rough shit, I'm all ears.

If the dude next to me on the bus starts telling me all about how their life sucks, I might become really interesting in my phone.

Fair, but there’s a trend here.

Not that men don’t enforce, they do, but primary enforcers are women, which makes sense as they also have the majority of social power. So telling men to stop enforcing the male gender role is good, but misses the majority of the problem.

Men, by and large, would love to shed the male gender role. Hell, some even engaging in bromances just to avoid enforcement of it. Like literally that was the reasoning given.

We need to tell women to stop forcing it on them.

Well, there's a lot of premises I have to accept there and they seem to be based on someone talking to 30 people. I've talked to 30 people, I wouldn't call that a study.

Costa Fierro wrote:snip.

To summarize: you think women enforce social roles?
The happiest people are married men, and they are expected to be breadwinners not because women don't want to be, but because women make less. I know that men face difficulties, but asking men to reconsider how they approach masculinity is not "dismantling it".

Galloism wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:I have never seen gender as the deciding factor in how much people give a shit about my woes, rather how well I know the person. Like, if my friend I know well and hang out with etc tells me they're going through some rough shit, I'm all ears.

If the dude next to me on the bus starts telling me all about how their life sucks, I might become really interesting in my phone.

Fair, but there’s a trend here.

Not that men don’t enforce, they do, but primary enforcers are women, which makes sense as they also have the majority of social power. So telling men to stop enforcing the male gender role is good, but misses the majority of the problem.

Men, by and large, would love to shed the male gender role. Hell, some even engaging in bromances just to avoid enforcement of it. Like literally that was the reasoning given.

We need to tell women to stop forcing it on them.

... I'll be sure to tell my mom and my sister that, that they should stop enforcing the gender stereotypes associated with me having a boyfriend, platonically or not.

You know, the ones who supported me when my dad wanted to "slap some sense into me" when I came out as bisexual.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

New haven america wrote:No, I was more going on about how not being stereotypically masculine doesn't help in a lot of regards.

For example, like Gallo, I have no problem talking about serious things with my male acquittances or friends, but when it comes to my female acquittances or friends then I need to add some type of humor or just avoid the topic entirely because they're going to be changing the topic as soon as they possibly can.

Oh. I don't think I touched on that at all in my post, so I'm still confused. But whatever.

I will say that there are a lot of women who take an active interest in the ways my life has gone to shit and will actually check in on me on occasion, none of which have any interest in my penis. There are also dudes who do the same. I don't have a demographic that I can divide those who give a shit and don't give a shit about me I can use except how well we know each other.

TBH, I don't divide stuff like that either (Especially that based on gender), but it's a really difficult trend to not notice once you see it happening to you. Course, it might also be because even though I tend to have slightly more female friends, I might've grown closer to my fewer male friends...

IDK, maybe it's because I have an easier time making closer male friends? Or Maybe it's just a relic behavior we need to get rid of? Either way, it's something I've personally noticed.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

Galloism wrote:Fair, but there’s a trend here.

Not that men don’t enforce, they do, but primary enforcers are women, which makes sense as they also have the majority of social power. So telling men to stop enforcing the male gender role is good, but misses the majority of the problem.

Men, by and large, would love to shed the male gender role. Hell, some even engaging in bromances just to avoid enforcement of it. Like literally that was the reasoning given.

We need to tell women to stop forcing it on them.

Well, there's a lot of premises I have to accept there and they seem to be based on someone talking to 30 people. I've talked to 30 people, I wouldn't call that a study.

Granted, it's one thing to have a small population size, but to have it be a local population size?

It also doesn't specify anything else about these undergrads and what the selection process was.

Was it random? What was their majors? Were they part of the same sociology program?

It reeks of confirmation bias.

The Rich Port wrote:

Galloism wrote:It’s actually more likely you just don’t give women the status of “actor” in your mind as easily. There’s a very disturbing trend in society (that we all have to fight against) to classify women as objects acted upon and men as actors responsible for their actions.

This manifests in both good and bad ways for women. In the arena of social shaming however, it allows them to engage in it without you as easily remembering to blame them (individually) for it.

When you start correcting the bias (which, admittedly, is going to be a work in progress for most of us), you start to notice how many things you internalized without analyzing.

Hey speaking of correcting bias.

The research was based on 30 interviews about the romantic and “bromantic” lives of male undergrads, each of whom had at least one bromance and one romance in the past year.

This doesn't sound like a serious study. At all. It's nice of the Ottawa Citizen to not provide a name or a link to this alleged study so I can read it and let me judge for myself.

Also, this was lasted UPDATED in 2017, 2 years ago. How old is this study, exactly, and how'd I never hear about this until now?

It made the rounds about two years ago.

According to Sage Journals, October 12, 2017. I read it originally in Newsweek.

Also, what bias should I be correcting? I don't particularly care what fulfills you spiritually and sexually, whether it's a man or a woman.

To treat women like actors instead of objects. Society would have you treat them like objects - acted upon by others. But they are actors - both good and bad.

Putting the blame on emotional shaming on women sounds like a load of horseshit.

Well, I don’t put it entirely on women. Men do it too. They just do it less than women do.

That’s what the data says, anyway.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

Galloism wrote:Fair, but there’s a trend here.

Not that men don’t enforce, they do, but primary enforcers are women, which makes sense as they also have the majority of social power. So telling men to stop enforcing the male gender role is good, but misses the majority of the problem.

Men, by and large, would love to shed the male gender role. Hell, some even engaging in bromances just to avoid enforcement of it. Like literally that was the reasoning given.

We need to tell women to stop forcing it on them.

Well, there's a lot of premises I have to accept there and they seem to be based on someone talking to 30 people. I've talked to 30 people, I wouldn't call that a study.

I provided a link to a second independent article reaching the same result.

Galloism wrote:

The Rich Port wrote:
Hey speaking of correcting bias.



This doesn't sound like a serious study. At all. It's nice of the Ottawa Citizen to not provide a name or a link to this alleged study so I can read it and let me judge for myself.

Also, this was lasted UPDATED in 2017, 2 years ago. How old is this study, exactly, and how'd I never hear about this until now?

It made the rounds about two years ago.

According to Sage Journals, October 12, 2017. I read it originally in Newsweek.

Also, what bias should I be correcting? I don't particularly care what fulfills you spiritually and sexually, whether it's a man or a woman.

To treat women like actors instead of objects. Society would have you treat them like objects - acted upon by others. But they are actors - both good and bad.

Putting the blame on emotional shaming on women sounds like a load of horseshit.

Well, I don’t put it entirely on women. Men do it too. They just do it less than women do.

That’s what the data says, anyway.

Yeah, this reeks of pop psychology.

I could conduct a larger more authoritative study and I would charge way less than these guys.

$60 for one shitty study. Really breh?

Cataluna wrote:

Costa Fierro wrote:snip.

To summarize: you think women enforce social roles?
The happiest people are married men, and they are expected to be breadwinners not because women don't want to be, but because women make less. I know that men face difficulties, but asking men to reconsider how they approach masculinity is not "dismantling it".

On the marriage subject, it’s worth note that married men are the least likely group to have friends. 15% don’t have a single close friend.

Galloism wrote:

Cataluna wrote:To summarize: you think women enforce social roles?
The happiest people are married men, and they are expected to be breadwinners not because women don't want to be, but because women make less. I know that men face difficulties, but asking men to reconsider how they approach masculinity is not "dismantling it".

On the marriage subject, it’s worth note that married men are the least likely group to have friends. 15% don’t have a single close friend.

But they report greater levels of happiness. What's your point here? If being untied to those who enforce negative gender roles was so good, you'd expect more happiness from single men. Isn't that the whole deal with MGTOW?

The Rich Port wrote:

Galloism wrote:
It made the rounds about two years ago.

According to Sage Journals, October 12, 2017. I read it originally in Newsweek.



To treat women like actors instead of objects. Society would have you treat them like objects - acted upon by others. But they are actors - both good and bad.



Well, I don’t put it entirely on women. Men do it too. They just do it less than women do.

That’s what the data says, anyway.

Yeah, this reeks of pop psychology.

I could conduct a larger more authoritative study and I would charge way less than these guys.

$60 for one shitty study. Really breh?

I don’t own the study. Sorry I can’t help you.

But we have now two separate independent researchers with the same conclusion.

Cataluna wrote:

Galloism wrote:On the marriage subject, it’s worth note that married men are the least likely group to have friends. 15% don’t have a single close friend.

But they report greater levels of happiness. What's your point here? If being untied to those who enforce negative gender roles was so good, you'd expect more happiness from single men. Isn't that the whole deal with MGTOW?

Single men are as tied into gender roles as married ones. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Galloism wrote:

The Rich Port wrote:
... Huh?

Huh what?

Cannot think of a name wrote:I imagine it's the cliche of women attacking a man's masculinity or demanding masculinity from men in terms of behavior or societal roles. Which surely does exist. I haven't really experienced it, it's mostly dudes I feel I need to hit with a blast from a hose when they find out I'm friends with a hot chick with no plans to try and fuck her, but everyone's mileage varies.

Your experience is quite atypical in this regard, if the research we have (which isn’t a lot, admittedly), is to be believed.

That being said, my experience tends to match the research. If I tell another man my work or financial or personal worries, they tend to listen, be sympathetic, and try to offer suggestions. My female friends though tend to just try to change the subject or throw out platitudes like “you’ll power through it” and then change the subject.

Nana being the one very notable exception that proves the rule.

Just gonna tack my own experiences onto Gallo's, here:

In the six years that I have been a house husband/homemaker/domestic god, all of the derisive comments about being a "house bitch" and the like have come from women. I've never once had a man call me a "house bitch" or any other blatantly disrespectful term.When I tell women that I don't work, that I cook and clean and do other domestic things instead, they often become dismissive and rude, implying that I'm just lazy.

Men do not do this to me. If they find my marriage dynamic wrong or strange, they might make some jabs, but never to the point of being disrespectful. Those men tend to just gloss over it and move on to another topic.The most common reaction is respect, actually, and a desire to do the same, usually because they'd like to spend more time with their kids. Weirdly, it's like the men I've met value domestic skills more than a lot of the women I've met.

Galloism wrote:

Cataluna wrote:But they report greater levels of happiness. What's your point here? If being untied to those who enforce negative gender roles was so good, you'd expect more happiness from single men. Isn't that the whole deal with MGTOW?

Single men are as tied into gender roles as married ones. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Fair enough, but their oppressor is yoked to them if they're married. Does proximity to oppression make its victims grow fonder to it?