Alpha-Betas: Do they exist?

[The Rich Port]

Huh what?



Your experience is quite atypical in this regard, if the research we have (which isn’t a lot, admittedly), is to be believed.

That being said, my experience tends to match the research. If I tell another man my work or financial or personal worries, they tend to listen, be sympathetic, and try to offer suggestions. My female friends though tend to just try to change the subject or throw out platitudes like “you’ll power through it” and then change the subject.

Nana being the one very notable exception that proves the rule.

Just gonna tack my own experiences onto Gallo's, here:

In the six years that I have been a house husband/homemaker/domestic god, all of the derisive comments about being a "house bitch" and the like have come from women. I've never once had a man call me a "house bitch" or any other blatantly disrespectful term.When I tell women that I don't work, that I cook and clean and do other domestic things instead, they often become dismissive and rude, implying that I'm just lazy.

Men do not do this to me. If they find my marriage dynamic wrong or strange, they might make some jabs, but never to the point of being disrespectful. Those men tend to just gloss over it and move on to another topic.The most common reaction is respect, actually, and a desire to do the same, usually because they'd like to spend more time with their kids. Weirdly, it's like the men I've met value domestic skills more than a lot of the women I've met.

... And your wife? What does she think? Funny you somehow overlooked her.

Why would you care about what other women think?

How often do you interact with other women that aren't your wife, to the point that you get into heated discussions about it with them?

Cuz... My home life isn't really something that comes up in regular discussion with strangers, or even acquaintances or friends I interact with regularly.

[Galloism]

Single men are as tied into gender roles as married ones. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Fair enough, but their oppressor is yoked to them if they're married. Does proximity to oppression make its victims grow fonder to it?

It’s actually probably not true about marriage and happiness anyway, if we’re being honest with ourselves.

An article on howstuffworks has this to stay:

A study of 24,000 German couples demonstrated the existence of the honeymoon phase that newlyweds experience. Tracking the couples' happiness levels over 15 years, a psychology professor from Michigan State University found that spouses exhibited an uptick in happiness soon after marriage [source: Stein, Song and Coady]. Then, those happiness levels gradually returned to their premarital state.

This pattern is comparable to the effects of sudden financial improvement on people's happiness. For people living with relatively low incomes, money can buy happiness for a while. Yet the longer someone gets used to having more cash on hand, the more it loses its luster.

This doesn't negate the survey results that show higher happiness rates among married people. Rather, it has led some psychologists to conjecture that married people are merely more inclined toward happiness since they're happier to begin with. Humans are predisposed to certain happiness ranges depending on their genetics, personality and life circumstances. Also, happier people are generally more social, and it follows that people who actively socialize will be more likely to meet someone they'd like to marry.

They cite Stein, Joel; Song, Sora and Coady, Elizabeth. "Is There a Hitch?" TIME. Jan. 17, 2005. for this.

[Dumb Ideologies]

It's an invalid interpretation because it's using a term that is exclusively reserved to blame men for their own problems.

I understand your sentiment here, but I think it misunderstands fundamentally that toxic masculinity addresses a systemic problem as opposed to an individual one. It's easy to see it as man-blaming, but truth be told, men are victims of it too. And while it'd be easy to say that "women's rights will make it all better", it's obviously more complex than that. Instead, working with men to reach a healthier masculinity and feminity will be beneficial to everyone. At least, that's the way I see it.

Long effort post coming up...

My issue with vocabulary such as this is that there's inevitable slippage between masculinity/men and femininity/women on the theoretical level, and with that - combined with the slippery-as-eels "patriarchy" - feminism's outlook is inherently slanted in a pro-woman, anti-men direction. These dual principles feed a binary oppressor/oppressed narrative that reduces women to victims, assumes all women's problems are solely the responsibility of men, and assumes all men's problems are solely the responsibility of "male culture".

These dynamics have real consequences for social policy. They influence the allocation of social resources. Getting more women in STEM is a much larger priority than the crisis in education among working-class boys. A lot of the arguments around this will blame boys, fathers and "male culture" for creating low expectations rather than the wider system. Do people go round lambasting mothers and "toxic femininity" for low STEM participation? No, it's all patriarchy. Similarly, women can get away with aggressive sexual behaviour towards men that would be lambasted as "toxic masculinity" if the roles were reversed, and for those who have been abused or assaulted by women feminists' pushing of gendered models of abuse and abuse that define them as inherently something men do are little short of gaslighting.

Feminism is an ideology. It's the one ideology that postmodernism's "scepticism towards metanarratives" hasn't reduced to a sobbing mess, frankly, and as such when it comes to social policy it's often the last god standing. All ideologies are very prone to creating closed systems of logic and you need to look at things through multiple lenses to get a more balanced view on what's going on. But feminism's totalising claim to explain the whole of gender dynamics, very organised lobbyists, blocking majorities on social research boards etc etc, combined with the usual snarl impulse towards criticism that ideologies tend to have towards opposing perspectives means it's difficult to challenge.

A lot of the men's rights crowd *do* end up lapsing into misogyny, that's absolutely undeniable and I won't defend examples of this sort of thing. Systemically, though, this comes from a particular place and just lambasting this as being what all anti-feminism must necessarily be like is missing the point. When people feel their points are institutionally shut out of the conversation it takes a strength of character for them not to become embittered and reactionary, defining themselves against social change; in this case the genuine liberatory struggles that feminists were fighting when they there were trying to get in to the system in the first place.

But none of this makes feminism - a movement foundationally "for women" - into an ideology that can envision the entirety of gender dynamics in anything approaching a neutral way. Feminism does not merely describe reality or "the system" as is, like every other ideology it describes what its ideologically and interest-tinted glasses predispose it to see. It's partial, and it's important to always remember that.

[Galloism]

Huh what?



Your experience is quite atypical in this regard, if the research we have (which isn’t a lot, admittedly), is to be believed.

That being said, my experience tends to match the research. If I tell another man my work or financial or personal worries, they tend to listen, be sympathetic, and try to offer suggestions. My female friends though tend to just try to change the subject or throw out platitudes like “you’ll power through it” and then change the subject.

Nana being the one very notable exception that proves the rule.

Just gonna tack my own experiences onto Gallo's, here:

In the six years that I have been a house husband/homemaker/domestic god, all of the derisive comments about being a "house bitch" and the like have come from women. I've never once had a man call me a "house bitch" or any other blatantly disrespectful term.When I tell women that I don't work, that I cook and clean and do other domestic things instead, they often become dismissive and rude, implying that I'm just lazy.

Men do not do this to me. If they find my marriage dynamic wrong or strange, they might make some jabs, but never to the point of being disrespectful. Those men tend to just gloss over it and move on to another topic.The most common reaction is respect, actually, and a desire to do the same, usually because they'd like to spend more time with their kids. Weirdly, it's like the men I've met value domestic skills more than a lot of the women I've met.

That’s a horrible term.

I would honestly love to keep things up on the home front instead of working in a (virtual) Office, but that’s not in the cards right now. These meetings are horrible.

But I do know I would face abuse like you do. Might be worth it, but it’s a hard path.

[Galloism]

Just gonna tack my own experiences onto Gallo's, here:

In the six years that I have been a house husband/homemaker/domestic god, all of the derisive comments about being a "house bitch" and the like have come from women. I've never once had a man call me a "house bitch" or any other blatantly disrespectful term.When I tell women that I don't work, that I cook and clean and do other domestic things instead, they often become dismissive and rude, implying that I'm just lazy.

Men do not do this to me. If they find my marriage dynamic wrong or strange, they might make some jabs, but never to the point of being disrespectful. Those men tend to just gloss over it and move on to another topic.The most common reaction is respect, actually, and a desire to do the same, usually because they'd like to spend more time with their kids. Weirdly, it's like the men I've met value domestic skills more than a lot of the women I've met.

... And your wife? What does she think? Funny you somehow overlooked her.

Why would you care about what other women think?

How often do you interact with other women that aren't your wife, to the point that you get into heated discussions about it with them?

Cuz... My home life isn't really something that comes up in regular discussion with strangers, or even acquaintances or friends I interact with regularly.

Seriously? Your friends and acquaintances don’t ask you what you do for a living ever?

Are they all drug dealers, think you’re a hit man, and never broach the subject because someone could be wearing a wire?

[Cataluna]

snip

Ideology as opposed to...lack of any ideology? Good luck with that. Like, yeah, feminism has flaws. What do you want me to say in response to this? That men haven't dominated political and social life for centuries? That disadvantages some men have make disadvantages some women have invalid? I don't think feminism does what you say it does. Men may perceive it as that, but that doesn't make its effect so.

[Scomagia]

Just gonna tack my own experiences onto Gallo's, here:

In the six years that I have been a house husband/homemaker/domestic god, all of the derisive comments about being a "house bitch" and the like have come from women. I've never once had a man call me a "house bitch" or any other blatantly disrespectful term.When I tell women that I don't work, that I cook and clean and do other domestic things instead, they often become dismissive and rude, implying that I'm just lazy.

Men do not do this to me. If they find my marriage dynamic wrong or strange, they might make some jabs, but never to the point of being disrespectful. Those men tend to just gloss over it and move on to another topic.The most common reaction is respect, actually, and a desire to do the same, usually because they'd like to spend more time with their kids. Weirdly, it's like the men I've met value domestic skills more than a lot of the women I've met.

... And your wife? What does she think? Funny you somehow overlooked her.

It's almost like you missed the point, which is that I have experienced what Gallo is talking about.

My wife is cool with it. Obviously, considering we're still fucking married. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.

Why would you care about what other women think?

I care what other women think for the same reason I care what other men think. It hurts when people are rude and disrespectful to me and, conversely, I'm happy when they're nice to me. The idea that women's opinions shouldn't matter to me because I married sounds pretty sexist, frankly.

How often do you interact with other women that aren't your wife, to the point that you get into heated discussions about it with them?

Cuz... My home life isn't really something that comes up in regular discussion with strangers, or even acquaintances or friends I interact with regularly.

You're kidding, right? It comes up when I meet new women because people usually ask "what do you do?", to which I obviously reply "I'm a homemaker". Opening for mild to moderate rudeness right there. Jesus, did you actually need that spelled out for you?

And otherwise its extended family and some of my wife's friends that make the most brazenly rude remarks.

[Tetradimensional Overworld]

Yes, as Greek letters and Nope as a categorization of humans or animals.

[Galloism]

snip

Ideology as opposed to...lack of any ideology? Good luck with that. Like, yeah, feminism has flaws. What do you want me to say in response to this? That men haven't dominated political and social life for centuries? That disadvantages some men have make disadvantages some women have invalid? I don't think feminism does what you say it does. Men may perceive it as that, but that doesn't make its effect so.

It actually does very specifically so. DI is not wrong.

Did you know the CDC reports more men suffer domestic violence each year than women? Did you know, at least among adults, men are raped at about the same rate as women, and mostly by women?

Did you know among teens, more boys report being victims of intimate partner violence than girls, and girls are the perpetrators?

If not, why not?

[Scomagia]

Just gonna tack my own experiences onto Gallo's, here:

In the six years that I have been a house husband/homemaker/domestic god, all of the derisive comments about being a "house bitch" and the like have come from women. I've never once had a man call me a "house bitch" or any other blatantly disrespectful term.When I tell women that I don't work, that I cook and clean and do other domestic things instead, they often become dismissive and rude, implying that I'm just lazy.

Men do not do this to me. If they find my marriage dynamic wrong or strange, they might make some jabs, but never to the point of being disrespectful. Those men tend to just gloss over it and move on to another topic.The most common reaction is respect, actually, and a desire to do the same, usually because they'd like to spend more time with their kids. Weirdly, it's like the men I've met value domestic skills more than a lot of the women I've met.

That’s a horrible term.

I would honestly love to keep things up on the home front instead of working in a (virtual) Office, but that’s not in the cards right now. These meetings are horrible.

But I do know I would face abuse like you do. Might be worth it, but it’s a hard path.

I enjoy it, though the missus and I are planning a reversal soon, considering we want a little Scomagia and we have plans for opening our home as a care home for the elderly, which Mrs. Scomagia would be running while I pursue my own career.

Mostly, I wouldn't call it abuse. I prefer to call it disrespect and while there's more of it than I'd like, there's less than you might think. Just assert yourself and people typically quit their bullshit.

[The Rich Port]

... And your wife? What does she think? Funny you somehow overlooked her.

Why would you care about what other women think?

How often do you interact with other women that aren't your wife, to the point that you get into heated discussions about it with them?

Cuz... My home life isn't really something that comes up in regular discussion with strangers, or even acquaintances or friends I interact with regularly.

Seriously? Your friends and acquaintances don’t ask you what you do for a living ever?

Are they all drug dealers, think you’re a hit man, and never broach the subject because someone could be wearing a wire?

Once upon a time you wouldn't be far off :D

In my experience, new people I meet ask me "so what do you do?", I tell them I'm a TSA officer, and most people go "oh cool" because they don't really care and I don't blame them. Some people get curious, but not enough to ask me at a later time. Besides, I don't really find my job all that interesting. I like talking about art and books and movies, not my job.

I remember a guy telling me he's a stay at home dad once, and when I asked him why, it's cuz his wife asked him to because the kids were driving her crazy. I asked him if it bothered him, and he said no, because now his wife isn't pulling double duty at her high-stress job and taking care of kids at the same time and he gets to spend time with his kids when he couldn't before.

... And your wife? What does she think? Funny you somehow overlooked her.

It's almost like you missed the point, which is that I have experienced what Gallo is talking about.

My wife is cool with it. Obviously, considering we're still fucking married. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.

Why would you care about what other women think?

I care what other women think for the same reason I care what other men think. It hurts when people are rude and disrespectful to me and, conversely, I'm happy when they're nice to me. The idea that women's opinions shouldn't matter to me because I married sounds pretty sexist, frankly.

How often do you interact with other women that aren't your wife, to the point that you get into heated discussions about it with them?

Cuz... My home life isn't really something that comes up in regular discussion with strangers, or even acquaintances or friends I interact with regularly.

You're kidding, right? It comes up when I meet new women because people usually ask "what do you do?", to which I obviously reply "I'm a homemaker". Opening for mild to moderate rudeness right there. Jesus, did you actually need that spelled out for you?

And otherwise its extended family and some of my wife's friends that make the most brazenly rude remarks.

You seem to have a disproportionate number of women being rude to you, is my point, so... I figure you'd make a point of mentioning how supportive your wife is compared to them. I found it strange that you didn't. Since, you know... Isn't it her opinion that matters the most?

That's an incredibly insecure way to look at the world. People aren't out to be rude to you. You shouldn't care either way. One would argue that it's sexist that women's opinions matter so much to you and they seem to make you angry.

What, didn't you hear? Home-making wasn't considered a full time job until recently. Women were the ones that stayed at home while men went out and did the real work.

Ah, so, not at all representative of the wider world.

I think what's actually happening here is that your family has colored your perception of what people actually think of house-husbands, which is to say that it's not really that big of a deal, and certainly nowhere near as big a deal as you guys seem to want to make it out to be.

You see, if random women were telling you that it's pathetic that you're a stay-at-home dad, that would indeed be very worrying. But they're not, is what you're telling me.

Anecdotal information isn't usually very reliable, you see.

[Galloism]

That’s a horrible term.

I would honestly love to keep things up on the home front instead of working in a (virtual) Office, but that’s not in the cards right now. These meetings are horrible.

But I do know I would face abuse like you do. Might be worth it, but it’s a hard path.

I enjoy it, though the missus and I are planning a reversal soon, considering we want a little Scomagia and we have plans for opening our home as a care home for the elderly, which Mrs. Scomagia would be running while I pursue my own career.

Mostly, I wouldn't call it abuse. I prefer to call it disrespect and while there's more of it than I'd like, there's less than you might think. Just assert yourself and people typically quit their bullshit.

In the spirit of the thread, maybe you’re more alpha than me.

[New haven america]

Seriously? Your friends and acquaintances don’t ask you what you do for a living ever?

Are they all drug dealers, think you’re a hit man, and never broach the subject because someone could be wearing a wire?

Once upon a time you wouldn't be far off

In my experience, new people I meet ask me "so what do you do?", I tell them I'm a TSA officer, and most people go "oh cool" because they don't really care and I don't blame them. Some people get curious, but not enough to ask me at a later time. Besides, I don't really find my job all that interesting. I like talking about art and books and movies, not my job.

I remember a guy telling me he's a stay at home dad once, and when I asked him why, it's cuz his wife asked him to because the kids were driving her crazy. I asked him if it bothered him, and he said no, because now his wife isn't pulling double duty at her high-stress job and taking care of kids at the same time and he gets to spend time with his kids when he couldn't before.

It's almost like you missed the point, which is that I have experienced what Gallo is talking about.

My wife is cool with it. Obviously, considering we're still fucking married. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.


I care what other women think for the same reason I care what other men think. It hurts when people are rude and disrespectful to me and, conversely, I'm happy when they're nice to me. The idea that women's opinions shouldn't matter to me because I married sounds pretty sexist, frankly.


You're kidding, right? It comes up when I meet new women because people usually ask "what do you do?", to which I obviously reply "I'm a homemaker". Opening for mild to moderate rudeness right there. Jesus, did you actually need that spelled out for you?

And otherwise its extended family and some of my wife's friends that make the most brazenly rude remarks.

You seem to have a disproportionate number of women being rude to you, is my point, so... I figure you'd make a point of mentioning how supportive your wife is compared to them. I found it strange that you didn't. Since, you know... Isn't it her opinion that matters the most?

That's an incredibly insecure way to look at the world. People aren't out to be rude to you. You shouldn't care either way. One would argue that it's sexist that women's opinions matter so much to you and they seem to make you angry.

What, didn't you hear? Home-making wasn't considered a full time job until recently. Women were the ones that stayed at home while men went out and did the real work.

Ah, so, not at all representative of the wider world.

I think what's actually happening here is that your family has colored your perception of what people actually think of house-husbands, which is to say that it's not really that big of a deal, and certainly nowhere near as big a deal as you guys seem to want to make it out to be.

You see, if random women were telling you that it's pathetic that you're a stay-at-home dad, that would indeed be very worrying. But they're not, is what you're telling me.

Anecdotal information isn't usually very reliable, you see.

In Scom's defense, they do live in a pretty conservative area with a lot of small towns, so info spreads quick and people can get pretty judgmental.

[The Free Joy State]

Ideology as opposed to...lack of any ideology? Good luck with that. Like, yeah, feminism has flaws. What do you want me to say in response to this? That men haven't dominated political and social life for centuries? That disadvantages some men have make disadvantages some women have invalid? I don't think feminism does what you say it does. Men may perceive it as that, but that doesn't make its effect so.

It actually does very specifically so. DI is not wrong.

Did you know the CDC reports more men suffer domestic violence each year than women? Did you know, at least among adults, men are raped at about the same rate as women, and mostly by women?

Did you know among teens, more boys report being victims of intimate partner violence than girls, and girls are the perpetrators?

If not, why not?

Can I see some stats on that, please?

I am not denying that domestic violence is a serious problem, for both genders, and that both men and women are raped (and that it is possibly under-reported among men). I don't deny that women do abuse and rape men.

I am not ignorant of these issues.

But the stats I've seen (including by the CDC) generally puts the rate of domestic abuse higher among women than men.

Saying that does not make the domestic violence towards men any less serious or heinous.

[Galloism]

[That's an incredibly insecure way to look at the world. People aren't out to be rude to you. You shouldn't care either way. One would argue that it's sexist that women's opinions matter so much to you and they seem to make you angry.

Um, what’s sexist about the opinions of women in your life mattering to you?

Is equality now when you shrug and say “eh, she’s only a woman. Her opinion doesn’t matter.”

[The Rich Port]

[That's an incredibly insecure way to look at the world. People aren't out to be rude to you. You shouldn't care either way. One would argue that it's sexist that women's opinions matter so much to you and they seem to make you angry.

Um, what’s sexist about the opinions of women in your life mattering to you?

Is equality now when you shrug and say “eh, she’s only a woman. Her opinion doesn’t matter.”

I'm going to let you re-read that sentence, because you seem to have misread it.

One would argue that it's sexist that women's opinions matter so much to you and they seem to make you angry

Or maybe you missed this part, where I answer your question. I guess it's up to you to decide if it's more sexist towards women or men, since apparently men are now secondary actors.

[The Rich Port]

In Scom's defense, they do live in a pretty conservative area with a lot of small towns, so info spreads quick and people can get pretty judgmental.

Which, yeah, is exactly my point with him and with that study.

You're going to need more than anecdotal information if you're seriously going to argue that patriarchal capitalism is actually... Shadow Matriarchal... Capitalism?

[Scomagia]

I enjoy it, though the missus and I are planning a reversal soon, considering we want a little Scomagia and we have plans for opening our home as a care home for the elderly, which Mrs. Scomagia would be running while I pursue my own career.

Mostly, I wouldn't call it abuse. I prefer to call it disrespect and while there's more of it than I'd like, there's less than you might think. Just assert yourself and people typically quit their bullshit.

In the spirit of the thread, maybe you’re more alpha than me.

"Welcome to Scomagia's Alpha Male Homemaking class! Today, I'm going to show you how a MAN sautees mushrooms and onions! Later, I'll show you how to manhandle the laundry without ruining your wife's delicates and how to iron like a WARRIOR! Finally, I'll show you which cleaners will absolutely FUBAR stubborn toilet rings!"

[Galloism]

It actually does very specifically so. DI is not wrong.

Did you know the CDC reports more men suffer domestic violence each year than women? Did you know, at least among adults, men are raped at about the same rate as women, and mostly by women?

Did you know among teens, more boys report being victims of intimate partner violence than girls, and girls are the perpetrators?

If not, why not?

Can I see some stats on that, please?

I am not denying that domestic violence is a serious problem, for both genders, and that both men and women are raped (and that it is possibly under-reported among men). I don't deny that women do abuse and rape men.

I am not ignorant of these issues.

But the stats I've seen (including by the CDC) generally puts the rate of domestic abuse higher among women than men.

Saying that does not make the domestic violence towards men any less serious or heinous.

I’m going to use the 2011 survey if you don’t mind, as it’s in html and I’m on a phone.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrht ... ss6308a1_e

For the 1 year prior to the survey, 4,774,000 women reported physical violence, compared with 5,420,000 men.

It’s hard to work the sexual violence, as there’s statistical overlap. 922,000 women reported rape, and 2,476,000 reported other sexual violence. But those numbers can (and likely do) have overlapping populations, along with overlapping physical. Men reported 2,442,000 incidences of other sexual violence, but the CDC groups men being raped by their intimate partner (962,000) into that number.

In total on rape, 1,929,000 women reported in the prior year. 1,921,000 men reported being “made to penetrate” in the same time period.

For the study of teens, this was recent, and also from Canada, but here you go.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 133154.htm

However, the researchers found 5.8 per cent of boys and 4.2 per cent of girls said they had experienced dating violence in the past year.

First author Catherine Shaffer, a PhD student from SFU who was involved in the study, says more research is needed to understand why boys are reporting more dating violence.

"It could be that it's still socially acceptable for girls to hit or slap boys in dating relationships," she said. "This has been found in studies of adolescents in other countries as well."

[Galloism]

Um, what’s sexist about the opinions of women in your life mattering to you?

Is equality now when you shrug and say “eh, she’s only a woman. Her opinion doesn’t matter.”

I'm going to let you re-read that sentence, because you seem to have misread it.

One would argue that it's sexist that women's opinions matter so much to you and they seem to make you angry

Or maybe you missed this part, where I answer your question. I guess it's up to you to decide if it's more sexist towards women or men, since apparently men are now secondary actors.

Is it sexist for a man’s opinion to matter so much to you it makes you angry?

[Galloism]

In the spirit of the thread, maybe you’re more alpha than me.

"Welcome to Scomagia's Alpha Male Homemaking class! Today, I'm going to show you how a MAN sautees mushrooms and onions! Later, I'll show you how to manhandle the laundry without ruining your wife's delicates and how to iron like a WARRIOR! Finally, I'll show you which cleaners will absolutely FUBAR stubborn toilet rings!"

I would attend this class.

[The Rich Port]

I'm going to let you re-read that sentence, because you seem to have misread it.



Or maybe you missed this part, where I answer your question. I guess it's up to you to decide if it's more sexist towards women or men, since apparently men are now secondary actors.

Is it sexist for a man’s opinion to matter so much to you it makes you angry?

... If it's only because they're a man?

Yes.

A person's gender doesn't really come into whether I value their opinion more.

[Galloism]

Is it sexist for a man’s opinion to matter so much to you it makes you angry?

... If it's only because they're a man?

Yes.

A person's gender doesn't really come into whether I value their opinion more.

What if both a man and a woman’s opinion matters so much to you that they both make you angry?

[The Rich Port]

... If it's only because they're a man?

Yes.

A person's gender doesn't really come into whether I value their opinion more.

What if both a man and a woman’s opinion matters so much to you that they both make you angry?

I would think...

That you seem to be grasping at straws by asking different questions knowing you're going to get the same answer.

Besides, you're assuming that I would care in the first place.

Is there a particular reason I should care these two people's opinions matter to me?

[Dumb Ideologies]

snip

Ideology as opposed to...lack of any ideology? Good luck with that. Like, yeah, feminism has flaws. What do you want me to say in response to this? That men haven't dominated political and social life for centuries? That disadvantages some men have make disadvantages some women have invalid? I don't think feminism does what you say it does. Men may perceive it as that, but that doesn't make its effect so.

Ah. In jumping from the specific to the general I possibly neglected to properly address the specific and assumed people would see how the latter addressed the former.

Basically, your original post speaks of "workng with men and women" to improve them while suggesting that this work must use tools developed by a movement by women, for women, tools which frequently downplay and obscure men's issues because these are naturally not their priority.

Starting with a feminist ideological base "bakes in" ideological presuppositions about women being victims who need to be raised up and men as oppressors who only have problems because of a culture and system of their own design. It might be well-meaning, but you're presetting the agenda in a way that fundamentally privileges the interests of one group over the other.