The Meaning Of Liberalism

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Liberalism is the ideology of the bourgeoisie.

Seems awfully dismissive if I'm honest.

[Auzkhia]

Liberalism is the ideology of the bourgeoisie.

Seems awfully dismissive if I'm honest.

It's on brand for a nation with a Soviet theme.

Liberalism is inherently capitalist.

[The Liberated Territories]

Liberalism is more of a sneer word than an actual ideology these days tbh

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Liberalism is more of a sneer word than an actual ideology these days tbh

t. a liberal.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Seems awfully dismissive if I'm honest.

It's on brand for a nation with a Soviet theme.

Liberalism is inherently capitalist.

Good because communism is awful.

[Badb Catha]

Wikipedia then goes on to say "liberals generally support limited government, individual rights, capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

This is the standard definition of Liberalism as used in the modern lexicon, and is exactly what I refer to when I specifically mention Liberalism and my opposition to it myself.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Wikipedia then goes on to say "liberals generally support limited government, individual rights, capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

This is the standard definition of Liberalism as used in the modern lexicon, and is exactly what I refer to when I specifically mention Liberalism and my opposition to it myself.

Out of curiousity, which of the thing in the underlined list do you disagree with?

[Page]

What say you NSG? What do you mean when you see the word liberal? Do you think I'm onto something here, or am I just way off and rambling? Furthermore, do you think liberalism's a good thing or not? I gotta admit, I think liberalism's pretty good relative to other political ideologies. I want to create some sort of poll, but I don't really know what the poll options would be... whoops.

Naturally the definition of liberalism varies by time and place. But in terms 21st century politics and the liberalism of today, I think liberals might best be defined as supporters of capitalism who believe that social democracy and civil rights are necessary to preserve the capitalist system, and/or that with these things capitalism can be ethical.

[Risottia]

Seems awfully dismissive if I'm honest.

It's on brand for a nation with a Soviet theme.

Liberalism is inherently capitalist.

Nope, it can also be corporatist. For sure, liberalism requires the private property of the means of mass production to be allowed.

[Risottia]

No form of liberalism justifies that. And no, not all people on the left are liberals.

Can you really consider liberals to be left-wing?

Absolutely not.

[Nakena]

Can you really consider liberals to be left-wing?

Absolutely not.

As what would you consider yourself?

[Kowani]

Can you really consider liberals to be left-wing?

Absolutely not.

Really depends on where the Overton Window is, doesn’t it?

[Loben The 2nd]

Naivety at best, sticking your head in the sand stupidity at worst.

[Valrifell]

The problem with defining liberalism as an ideology is that it's not really an ideology anymore so much as it's a framework from which all other things are defined. Conservatives, Liberals, Libertarians, are more or less all in line with Liberal principles as they've been understood since the Enlightenment and even since they've evolved. At this point, Western Conservatives aren't really illiberal so much as they want to revert to an older form of liberalism or a slightly different flavor.

With Liberalism being so ubiquitous in political parlance, defining it is pretty hard.

[Risottia]

Absolutely not.

As what would you consider yourself?

A left-winger of the libertarian communist variant.
Meaning that I support the collectivisation of the means of mass production in a socially permissive and strongly solidal legal setting.

[Nova Cyberia]

The American meaning of the world's been perverted quite a bit since modern liberals aren't really liberal.

[Narland]

"Liberalism" and "liberal" is a word I often hear thrown around a lot with little care as to its meaning. These days, the word "liberal" at least on this forum and others like it is used slightly more prejoratively than endorsingly. But why is that? To understand why, we must first determine what liberalism is.

To some on the right, it seems liberalism is a synonym for left-wing, often used as a prejoritive with a meaning similar to "pinko" or "SJW." And yet, to some on the left, liberalism is a synonym for "capitalist," in fact, many leftists see liberalism as "the ideology of capitalism." Already, we have two seemingly contradictor definitions that vary depending on political affiliation.

Wikipedia (the beginning and not the ending of research, but still) says "Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equal rights." The problem is, this is a very broad definition which could easily be argued to apply to anarcho-communists as well as to contemporary conservatives. Wikipedia then goes on to say "liberals generally support limited government, individual rights, capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion. To me I think that provides something more concrete. From this it can be observed that liberalism generally favours policies based on individual rights & freedoms and eauality of opportunity, which I think is at the core of liberalism.

One problem though is the "individual rights & freedoms and equality of opportunity" definition arguably still leaves in libertarian socialists, who most people would not define as liberal. Maybe then; "individual rights & freedoms and equality of opportunity from a pro-private property perspective."

What say you NSG? What do you mean when you see the word liberal? Do you think I'm onto something here, or am I just way off and rambling? Furthermore, do you think liberalism's a good thing or not? I gotta admit, I think liberalism's pretty good relative to other political ideologies. I want to create some sort of poll, but I don't really know what the poll options would be... whoops.

Re: Q1. Rhetorical, so unanswered.

Re: Q2. I say, Classical Liberalism good, Statism (Left, Right, Centre or Off the Scale) bad.

Re: Q3 /Clarification A. What do I think when I see the word liberal? Meaning depends on source and context of the person communicating the word. 21st Century American Leftists who consider themselves Liberal generally do not understand how illiberal (and regressive) they can be. Just as 21st Century American Neoconservatives who think themselves to be conserving Classical Liberalism generally do not understand how un-conserving (and illiberal) they can be. When writing or speaking I try variously emphasizing different aspects depending on if the audience is reasonable or anti-intellectual, rural or urban, classically educated or PME schooled, European or American, as the (modern/post-modern word) "liberal" has become amorphous connoting different things to different people.

Re: Q3 /Clarification B. What to I mean when I say the word Liberal? If I am speaking with a fellow who understands philosophically, theologically, or politically fully what Classical Liberalism entails, I am free to use the term in both its historic and conceptual sense as liberally as I desire. When speaking with someone hampered by illiberal thinking or a vague understanding of Classical Liberalism, I try to define my terms carefully. If the mind is closed, I move on.

Re: Q.4a. Yes, you are onto something. The root problem (imo) came from the philosophical schizophrenia developed when Modern (post 16th century) Western Civilization crossed the Kantian Divide (in the 19th-20th Centuries) such that Left/Liberal Classical Liberalism became epistemologically inconsistent with itself, and when Right/Conservative Classical Liberalism became ontologically inconsistent within itself from the chain reaction that foolishly divorced meaning and purpose. Fortunately, America constitutionally established Classical Liberalism as the Law (and purpose) of the Land (albeit imperfectly) before this "Line of Despair" as Shcaeffer put it began and percolated throughout all aspects of Western Civ (Pre-WW1 for Europe, and Post WW2 for America). Classical Liberalism based entirely on Objective Realism and its derivative classical understanding of Natural Law is integrally consistent, naturally deduced (self-evident), and in a republican (little r) form easy to justly adjudicate for both Liberty and Equality without contradiction or conflict of the two. Secondary issues (the debilitating illiberality) resulted primarily thence post-Kant.

Re: Q4b. Perhaps. Rambling takes one on a journey never experienced by the sedentary or the succinct.

Re: Q5. Classical Liberalism is good for its fitness to the human condition. When a people are fully educated in both knowledge¹ and morality² to desire Liberty³ and Equality⁴ and taught to abhor the natural proclivity of the species to indolence and immaturity the people can pass their security to the next gen. The next gen is then free to improve upon their condition so that each gen lives more free and prosperous than the previous. Those who can govern themselves well (liberally) will resist being externally governed illiberally. Those who cannot govern themselves from within will most certainly be governed from without, and there can always be found despots happy to do so.

¹factual realty
²comprehension in understanding the consequences of human action (whether by individual or group) upon others (whether by individuals or groups), or upon nature, including awareness of the harm of its unintended consequences
³ the freedom to be and let be, to travel, and perchance find that niche in life where one develops happiness for oneself and family in his/her industry to provide a product or service to others in mutually beneficent exchange free from fraud or coercion in communion, community or concord with others
⁴equal right to life liberty and property for each and every person lawfully adjudicated with beneficent indifference as free people in a free society `

Re: TLDR Part. The torchbearer for Classical Liberalism, Hayek and Von Mises produced works that helped me best as a young teen. Don't be off-put by the size of some of them. Some are comprehensive and encyclopedic. Even if you do not read it in one sitting, it can be read topically in chunks.

Classcial Liberalism
Ebook Formats
Ludwig von Mises, Liberalism: The Classical Tradition, Liberty Fund Edition ebook
PDF Format
Ludwig von Mises, Liberalism: The Classical Tradition, Von Mises Institute 3rd Ed pdf

Road to Serfdom (could not find the unabridged version)
Condensed Version PDF
The Road to Serfdom with The Intellectuals and Socialism Friedrich A. Hayek, Definitive Edition (Reader's Digest Abridged) 2005 Reprint
Pamphlet Version PDF
Road to Serfdom in Cartoons, Friedrich A. Hayek, Look Magazine / General Motors Thought Starter Series 118, No Date Given

[The Liberated Territories]

Liberalism is more of a sneer word than an actual ideology these days tbh

t. a liberal.

Most people wouldn't consider myself a liberal, even the right-liberals of Germany are far to the (economic) left of me.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Can you really consider liberals to be left-wing?

Not all of them.

The fact you can consider any variety of liberal to be leftist is disheartening, to say the least.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Not all of them.

The fact you can consider any variety of liberal to be leftist is disheartening, to say the least.

Shut up, L E F T I S T

Mods, this is a joke.

[Aclion]

Liberal is an old word for Libertarian, and refers to a person who advocates liberty in personal, social(including economic) and political choices. In the US it's not used that way anymore because it was co-opted by pinko-ethnonationalists and then used as a pejorative by conservatives.

[The Liberated Territories]

The fact you can consider any variety of liberal to be leftist is disheartening, to say the least.

Shut up, L E F T I S T

Mods, this is a joke.

You forgot to dab.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Liberal is an old word for Libertarian, and refers to a person who advocates liberty in personal, social(including economic) and political choices. In the US it's not used that way anymore because it was co-opted by pinko-ethnonationalists and then used as a pejorative by conservatives.

>Pinko
>Ethno-Nationalist
Fucking pick one

[West Leas Oros 2]

The fact you can consider any variety of liberal to be leftist is disheartening, to say the least.

Shut up, L E F T I S T

Mods, this is a joke.

OK, C A P I T A L I S T

/s

[Pinch Me]

Not all of them.

The fact you can consider any variety of liberal to be leftist is disheartening, to say the least.

Just saw the anagram "ball rise" with the clue "Hangs slightly to the left" on a popular TV show.

So I'm afraid that makes it official.