Does America deserve to be the “Police of the world”?

[Shanhwa]

lol

Nice to know you think oppression is funny lmao

tfw country based entirely around individual freedom

“oppression”

[Thanatttynia]

Even a map like that doesn't do America justice, it's the world's truest melting-pot. If different ethnicities were cleaved apart within it you'd end up with a lot of people missing great parts of themselves

A map like that doesn't do America justice because most Americans want to be special, so they see that their great-great-great-grandfather was from Germany and decide that it means they're German-American. When it doesn’t.

I think we can all agree that’s silly, but it doesn’t take away the fact that America is the only country on Earth wherein you will probably find people of every ethnicity, all mixing with each other. It has a very particular history (as settler-colony and slave-colony turned superpower right when international travel was becoming popular) that sets it apart and necessitates speaking of its society in terms we wouldn’t use for any other Western nationstate.

All ethnicities have been subsumed into an overarching American identity... there are cracks (specifically in the never-settled race war) but the civic nationalism is set in pretty deep. All of which means dividing America up into ethnostates is a fucking ludicrous idea.

The Founding Fathers warned us against interventionism and entangling alliances on behalf of any country. All it's done is to subordinate our national interests to foreign elites, who are as corrupt as anything we see in the U.S., if not more so, for lack of our constitutional safeguards.

Take an example. The alliance with the British was pursued, their foreign policy aims and prejudices protected, back when they were oppressing and butchering India. The empire could not be sustained after World War II, but they continued to oppress and butcher Northern Ireland.

I need not go too deeply into the support for a pure monarchical despotism such as Saudi Arabia, with its infamous record on women's rights.

How does that serve the interests of the world's liberty and make it secure for democratic freedoms? Says Benjamin Franklin, "security without liberty is prison".

Most people’s problem with what is termed American imperialism isn’t... that it’s some white man’s burden for America. Most people’s problem with it is that it subordinates the goals of different peoples to the goals of the American elite, in the interest of lining the pockets of the American elite. I don’t see how you’re turning this round on foreigners lol

[Thanatttynia]

In most cases inveighing against ‘American imperialism’ unfortunately betrays a simplistic and naive view of international diplomacy. Beyond realpolitik - interventionism is morally right. Anti-interventionism is not morally defensible in the abstract.

Real world concerns obviously get in the way - how bad the American international post-war Order has been at preventing conflict, how much worse volatile situations get when America involves itself, etc. - but the solution is not to decry interventionism but to demand it be done better. What’s more, if it’s going to be done, give me Trump over Xi any day of the week. I’m not ready for the Chinese re-ordering of the world

[New haven america]

A map like that doesn't do America justice because most Americans want to be special, so they see that their great-great-great-grandfather was from Germany and decide that it means they're German-American. When it doesn’t.

I think we can all agree that’s silly, but it doesn’t take away the fact that America is the only country on Earth wherein you will probably find people of every ethnicity, all mixing with each other. It has a very particular history (as settler-colony and slave-colony turned superpower right when international travel was becoming popular) that sets it apart and necessitates speaking of its society in terms we wouldn’t use for any other Western nationstate.

All ethnicities have been subsumed into an overarching American identity... there are cracks (specifically in the never-settled race war) but the civic nationalism is set in pretty deep. All of which means dividing America up into ethnostates is a fucking ludicrous idea.

TBH, the same can be said for most countries in North and South America. (Suriname and Guyana are majority Indian and African countries, Peru has a massive population of Japanese and Chinese descended people, Brazil has pretty much every ethnic group in the Southern Hemisphere, etc...)

[Mystic Warriors]

No. America under Trump is a fascist nation based on lies and oppression. No nation like that should police anyone.

[Mystic Warriors]

In most cases inveighing against ‘American imperialism’ unfortunately betrays a simplistic and naive view of international diplomacy. Beyond realpolitik - interventionism is morally right. Anti-interventionism is not morally defensible in the abstract.

Real world concerns obviously get in the way - how bad the American international post-war Order has been at preventing conflict, how much worse volatile situations get when America involves itself, etc. - but the solution is not to decry interventionism but to demand it be done better. What’s more, if it’s going to be done, give me Trump over Xi any day of the week. I’m not ready for the Chinese re-ordering of the world

Trump is worse than Xi. The only difference is Trump has that pesky constitution and Democrats stopping him, but don't you worry, he is working day and night to destroy both.

[Mystic Warriors]

No, of course not. No country should police the world. The only thing the American state deserves is revolution.

lol

At least try to contribute. And he is right, we need another 1776 to free us from our oppressors.

[Jebslund]

In most cases inveighing against ‘American imperialism’ unfortunately betrays a simplistic and naive view of international diplomacy. Beyond realpolitik - interventionism is morally right. Anti-interventionism is not morally defensible in the abstract.

Real world concerns obviously get in the way - how bad the American international post-war Order has been at preventing conflict, how much worse volatile situations get when America involves itself, etc. - but the solution is not to decry interventionism but to demand it be done better. What’s more, if it’s going to be done, give me Trump over Xi any day of the week. I’m not ready for the Chinese re-ordering of the world

American "interventionism" is nothing more than pretty words to dress up wars fought solely for the sake of American wealth and American ego. Their motives in every war after the 2nd World War have been purely self-serving.

Honestly, I'm not convinced this country *can* do it better. In light of the rampant corruption and the problems in our own back yard, America needs to back out of the world police game until we've reformed into a society that *can* approach interventionalism with the objectivity and altruism demanded by what you're suggesting should happen. We're dealing with the real world, not the abstract, and America has proven time and again that it can't do the job right. I'm not sure it ever will be able to.

China isn't the only power out there, by the way, and Japan should have served as an object lesson in why one does not wake sleeping giants, even when they are sleeping in hospital beds.

[Hakons]

I'm not sure if anyone "deserves" to have power over global security, but I do know that the United States is better than the other nations that would seek to project global power. The only thing stopping South Korea from getting bulldozed is the US military. The only thing stopping Taiwan getting annexed by China is the US. Given how aggressive Russia already is with enormous pressure on them, they would be much more expansionary without that pressure.

When it comes to who has the "right" to project force, I think Thucydides gets it right in the Melian Dialogue:

"Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do."

[Diyaristan]

I'm not sure if anyone "deserves" to have power over global security, but I do know that the United States is better than the other nations that would seek to project global power. The only thing stopping South Korea from getting bulldozed is the US military. The only thing stopping Taiwan getting annexed by China is the US. Given how aggressive Russia already is with enormous pressure on them, they would be much more expansionary without that pressure.

When it comes to who has the "right" to project force, I think Thucydides gets it right in the Melian Dialogue:

"Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do."

South Korea is a sweatshop country, basically.

[Jebslund]

The only thing stopping South Korea from getting bulldozed is the US military. The only thing stopping Taiwan getting annexed by China is the US. Given how aggressive Russia already is with enormous pressure on them, they would be much more expansionary without that pressure.

That is a gross oversimplification. The US does not need to play World Police to keep that from happening. It is sufficient to threaten to pull all US business out of China. China knows that it cannot currently afford to piss us off not because of our military (China has more manpower, and air and sea power is not so far behind us that that numbers advantage is nullified.), but because we give them so many of our jobs and they own so much of our debt that a US default and making China a no-go area (demanding all American citizens leave China at once and making it de facto illegal to do business there) would economically cripple them. They're also leaning on North Korea to kindly not piss us off enough to wake us up.

As for Russia, the UN and EU can deal with that. We don't need to be the cops, and, even if we don't play World Police, doing something stupid enough to pull us back into that mindset is no less dangerous. When someone holds a pistol to your forehead, you don't start mouthing off to them just because they lowered it unless you've got more balls than brains, and Putin is not Kim Jong Un in that regard.

[Saint Ignis]

Nice to know you think oppression is funny lmao

tfw country based entirely around individual freedom

“oppression”

People don't exist in vacuums. Individual freedom means nothing if you live under and within systems that fundamentally limit what you can do to act in your best interest.

Like, if you're being overworked at your job to the point that it's actively harming you and your health, what are you supposed to do? The best thing to do would be to use sick days, but those are limited; recovery takes time. You could try to get better hours, but you'd essentially be begging, sacrificing any amount of dignity you had left, and probably get fired since you're a productivity loss. Unions are useful, but if there's no union, organizing would take time and energy that you don't have, never mind the fact that trying to unionize at all might get you fired. If you manage to unionize, going on strike means you don't get paid until a deal is negotiated, if there is one at all. Social safety nets help, but not enough where you can rely upon them and live well.

If you live paycheck to paycheck, don't have much in the bank, savings-wise, and don't have healthcare with good coverage, what are you supposed to do? Let your labor kill you? That's not a choice, it's coercion. You either work or you die.

[-Ocelot-]

America is not by itself the "police of the world". It's certainly the one and only military superpower right now but it rarely does things alone.

Think of it this way: Would you rather have China, Russia or some other dictatorship be the police of the world? Because there is always going to be one. If the US retreats from "policing" as some people wish, another country will fill the void. Look at what China is doing to it's own people or what Russia did to Ukraine and they are not even that highly influential. Imagine these countries making bigger decisions for all of us.

[Saroreich]

Note: Try and stay on topic this time, my last thread on the military budget was locked because it got to off topic.

Many people believe that the American military does a bit to much regarding interventions. Some people believe that the US deserves this power, having built the world’s largest military under a democratic government.

I just want to hear some people’s thoughts on the subject, as many feel very strongly about it.

As I said above, please stay on topic. I don’t want another locked thread.

Being the world police is not a reward, so unless you think that the US should be punished for having a big military, which it only has because it is the world police/leader of the free world.

Basically, the US sacrifices more than any other nation in the pursuit of peace, and with mixed success. Therefore they receive only criticism and hate.

Both Obama and Trump have tried to reduce the role America plays in world politics, but even Trump has been largely unsuccessful in getting Europe to not rely on the US.

Let me repeat, the US gains nothing from its military bases in Germany, Japan and who knows where else but headaches and world peace.

Europeans give more credit to the EU than NATO for post WWII peace, although the fact that most European nations are members of the same military alliance is more important to peace than a trade agreement.

If the US intervenes everyone criticises its mistakes, if the US doesn't intervene, people complain that it doesn't. Because of joint actions, the US receives an undue amount of hate and criticism. Even among the Allies, the local news cover's the deaths of only the national troops. For example in Germany, the Germans think that only Germans die to fix American problems in Afghanistan. In reality, more Americans died in Afghanistan and German politicians have the choice on where to send their troops.

[Conserative Morality]

The only thing stopping South Korea from getting bulldozed is the US military.

Press X to doubt. SK has a pretty powerful military. Top ten in the world for military expenditure, universal conscription, the works. Even if China tried to tangle with them now, it'd be far from a sure thing.

[Conserative Morality]

South Korea is a sweatshop country, basically.

... what

[-Ocelot-]

The only thing stopping South Korea from getting bulldozed is the US military.

Press X to doubt. SK has a pretty powerful military. Top ten in the world for military expenditure, universal conscription, the works. Even if China tried to tangle with them now, it'd be far from a sure thing.

Both NK and SK have huge military forces compared to their economies and populations. SK would definitely not get "bulldozed" by the US.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_cou ... _personnel

[Shanhwa]

No. America under Trump is a fascist nation based on lies and oppression. No nation like that should police anyone.

Fucking lol

[Shanhwa]

I'm not sure if anyone "deserves" to have power over global security, but I do know that the United States is better than the other nations that would seek to project global power. The only thing stopping South Korea from getting bulldozed is the US military. The only thing stopping Taiwan getting annexed by China is the US. Given how aggressive Russia already is with enormous pressure on them, they would be much more expansionary without that pressure.

When it comes to who has the "right" to project force, I think Thucydides gets it right in the Melian Dialogue:

"Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can. And it is not as if we were the first to make this law, or to act upon it when made: we found it existing before us, and shall leave it to exist for ever after us; all we do is to make use of it, knowing that you and everybody else, having the same power as we have, would do the same as we do."

South Korea? lol no, SK’s military is much more modern and well-equipped than North Korea. North Korea’s main advantage is just numbers.

lol

At least try to contribute. And he is right, we need another 1776 to free us from our oppressors.

I am contributing, you just don’t like the manner I am contributing in. And no, we don’t need another 1776. You aren’t being oppressed if you live in America.

[Belinka]

I am contributing, you just don’t like the manner I am contributing in. And no, we don’t need another 1776. You aren’t being oppressed if you live in America.

NGL, your comments that are just “lol” or “lmao” don’t do much to the discussion. At least try and add more other than vague comments of disagreement. It makes you seem like a dunce.

[Bear Stearns]

No. America under Trump is a fascist nation based on lies and oppression. No nation like that should police anyone.

You're right, we should instead have the benevolent imperialism of drone strike Obama and regime change in Libya.

[Jebslund]

No. America under Trump is a fascist nation based on lies and oppression. No nation like that should police anyone.

You're right, we should instead have the benevolent imperialism of drone strike Obama and regime change in Libya.

You know it's not just Trump or Obama, right? Or that Obama's drone strikes don't negate Trump's fascist tendencies?

[Holy Tedalonia]

‘Deserve’ is a strong word. Although I would say its expected, when ones a super power to ‘police the world’ as the putty is in their hands to form the world how they see fit, given that they have the power and influence of a super power.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

No. America under Trump is a fascist nation based on lies and oppression. No nation like that should police anyone.

I guarantee you that if America was truly fascist, congress would be rubber stamping Trump's decrees. They're not, as we are still a constitutional republic.

[Thanatttynia]

I think we can all agree that’s silly, but it doesn’t take away the fact that America is the only country on Earth wherein you will probably find people of every ethnicity, all mixing with each other. It has a very particular history (as settler-colony and slave-colony turned superpower right when international travel was becoming popular) that sets it apart and necessitates speaking of its society in terms we wouldn’t use for any other Western nationstate.

All ethnicities have been subsumed into an overarching American identity... there are cracks (specifically in the never-settled race war) but the civic nationalism is set in pretty deep. All of which means dividing America up into ethnostates is a fucking ludicrous idea.

TBH, the same can be said for most countries in North and South America. (Suriname and Guyana are majority Indian and African countries, Peru has a massive population of Japanese and Chinese descended people, Brazil has pretty much every ethnic group in the Southern Hemisphere, etc...)

Ofc many other countries in the Western hemisphere have much the same dynamics - and many countries in Asia and Africa do, too, even without large-scale immigration - but those countries which do aren't really comparable to the US on many other levels.

In most cases inveighing against ‘American imperialism’ unfortunately betrays a simplistic and naive view of international diplomacy. Beyond realpolitik - interventionism is morally right. Anti-interventionism is not morally defensible in the abstract.

Real world concerns obviously get in the way - how bad the American international post-war Order has been at preventing conflict, how much worse volatile situations get when America involves itself, etc. - but the solution is not to decry interventionism but to demand it be done better. What’s more, if it’s going to be done, give me Trump over Xi any day of the week. I’m not ready for the Chinese re-ordering of the world

Trump is worse than Xi. The only difference is Trump has that pesky constitution and Democrats stopping him, but don't you worry, he is working day and night to destroy both.

Please don't kid yourself. I would invite you to move to China, proclaim yourself a 'PROUD XI HATER' and see how long you last... I'm not a fan of Trump but he's not malevolent, he's just a yuppie with dementia. Even within the Republican and Democratic Parties there are many much more evil people.

Honestly, I'm not convinced this country *can* do it better. In light of the rampant corruption and the problems in our own back yard, America needs to back out of the world police game until we've reformed into a society that *can* approach interventionalism with the objectivity and altruism demanded by what you're suggesting should happen. We're dealing with the real world, not the abstract, and America has proven time and again that it can't do the job right. I'm not sure it ever will be able to.

I'd agree America has proven it can't do the job right (though, given it's a democracy, it has to be a positive that the elite will never be able to fully subjugate the world to their interests in the same way an authoritarian state can and probably will.) The issue then becomes the other option...

China isn't the only power out there, by the way, and Japan should have served as an object lesson in why one does not wake sleeping giants, even when they are sleeping in hospital beds.

China is the only power capable of taking up the US' international role in the near-mid future, barring total European federalisation, which looks increasingly unlikely. What's scary about Chinese supremacy more so than, say, Russian supremacy for us Westerners is that Russia is more-or-less a European state, in the tradition of every global superpower ever to exist. China is something completely new, and has the best-developed authoritarian state in the world to boot.