Alt-right. A terrorist movement in the making?

[Fedel]

Issues such as?

Whatever issues they cite as the reason for their actions. The one I often see cited is that Western and Muslim values are irreconcilable or that white people are marginalized or treated unequally as a result of circumstances outside of their control.

Sorry people in general do now wake up one day and say you know what? I am going to kill me some *insert hated group*

Exactly. It happens over an extended period of time.

This kind of action stews for awhile. Add in being damaged, mental issues, whatever and they explode.

Of course.

Hate motivates. Not sure where you justification is going.

Try to read better. I specifically stated that I was not justifying their actions. Rather, I was pointing out that we should find ways to take away their motivation for hate.

Hate is rational? Maybe if you were a victim of it. Why are these "avengers" going out on their own? I guess if you live in a hate bubble and already have mental issues, it's only a matter of time before you act.

Hate is not "rational" but it does have a "rationale" behind it.

ra·tion·ale
/ˌraSHəˈnal/
noun
a set of reasons or a logical basis for a course of action or a particular belief.

---

ra·tion·al
/ˈraSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
1.
based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

Part of being vigilant is being a little paranoid. Listening to "Jews will not replace us" is not something to ignore as oh they are celebrating being white or just acting up and letting off steam.

I would describe being vigilant as vigilance as opposed to paranoia. Paranoia crosses the line into unreasonable suspicion.

Statements? If you rate a people as substandard; it's easy to justify the deaths of innocent people.

I was referring to a particular individual he was engaging in this thread. If you're going to enter into a conversation, try to find out the context first.

The thread is about alt-right. Bringing up the left is simply a tangent.

Only if you deny the affect that the left's actions have on the right.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I really don't see how. I'm simply suggesting that most of the people who commit these acts ( barring the insane ones ) have their own illogical and/or immoral rationale behind why they do what they do and that understanding it can help us prevent acts like these from occurring in the future. Do you disagree? If so, I'd be curious to hear why.

I would say define "understanding." Looking into what causes an individual to embrace white nationalist ideology and the lies that go along with it is certainly helpful. It allows society to examine shortcomings and provide healthy ways for people to have their frustrations dealt with that don't involve believing everyone of certain minority groups needs to die.
There are two types of white nationalists. The ringleaders and followers. The ringleaders are the true believers. They're committed, no matter what. If eveyone else left the movement? They'd stay.
Followers, however, are very frustrated and angry people. And a society that cares for its disadvantaged to ensure that they aren't victims of alienation and frustration and anger will be better off.

Coddling people who have already committed themselves to killing innocents, however, and going on about how we need to understand the poor, misunderstood Nazi? F that.

That's unfortunate. I feel like you're only harming yourself with that mindset.

If someone tapdances up to the line of antisemitism? I'm not going to assume it was done out ignorance. In short? I don't have the luxury of that.

And this is something that we need to do. But as of currently, no one has lifted a finger to dispell followers from their anger. In fact, I'd argue we've only added flame to the fire by placing the finger of blame so widely.

[Purgatio]

I really don't see how. I'm simply suggesting that most of the people who commit these acts ( barring the insane ones ) have their own illogical and/or immoral rationale behind why they do what they do and that understanding it can help us prevent acts like these from occurring in the future. Do you disagree? If so, I'd be curious to hear why.

I would say define "understanding." Looking into what causes an individual to embrace white nationalist ideology and the lies that go along with it is certainly helpful. It allows society to examine shortcomings and provide healthy ways for people to have their frustrations dealt with that don't involve believing everyone of certain minority groups needs to die.
There are two types of white nationalists. The ringleaders and followers. The ringleaders are the true believers. They're committed, no matter what. If eveyone else left the movement? They'd stay.
Followers, however, are very frustrated and angry people. And a society that cares for its disadvantaged to ensure that they aren't victims of alienation and frustration and anger will be better off.

Coddling people who have already committed themselves to killing innocents, however, and going on about how we need to understand the poor, misunderstood Nazi? F that.

That's unfortunate. I feel like you're only harming yourself with that mindset.

If someone tapdances up to the line of antisemitism? I'm not going to assume it was done out ignorance. In short? I don't have the luxury of that.

How is understanding someone's worldview 'coddling people who have already committed themselves to killing innocents'?? Wanting to stop people from becoming radicalised to a certain twisted worldview generally requires you to understand and comprehend what attracts some people to that worldview in the first place.

[Fedel]

My point being that all of these acts were terrible and should not have been carried out but that I believe you and I can agree that nobody should be subjected to unfair harassment or harassment based on things one can't control since it can contribute to these terrible acts occurring.

Yes, we can agree on that. Which is one of many reasons I have no sympathy for the people who shoot up synagogues.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Irregardless, I'm glad you can agree that unfair judgement of people must be ended in order to help prevent terrible events like the ones we discussed.

[Prydania]

I would describe being vigilant as vigilance as opposed to paranoia. Paranoia crosses the line into unreasonable suspicion.

No offence, but you're not qualified to speak on how a Jewish person should react to antisemitism.

[Fedel]

I would describe being vigilant as vigilance as opposed to paranoia. Paranoia crosses the line into unreasonable suspicion.

No offence, but you're not qualified to speak on how a Jewish person should react to antisemitism.

I can only say that if you live your life in constant suspicion that those around you are being anti-semitic, you're not going to have a great time.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I'd like to present my take on everyone bringing up "the left" and how it affects the Alt-Right. I'd argue that the sort of "leftism" that drives people towards the Alt-Right is not, in fact, leftist in nature, nor is it based in leftist theory. I would actually consider such things to be a right-wing ideology, given that it follows the same principles, only with different identities. I fail to see how reversing the scapegoat changes an ideology to be "leftist".

[Prydania]

Yes, we can agree on that. Which is one of many reasons I have no sympathy for the people who shoot up synagogues.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Yeah, I have no sympathy for people who kill innocents in the name of a twisted, irrational, racist ideology.

I'm far more concerned about saving others from radicalization than feeling sorry for and coddling those with blood already on their hands.

Irregardless, I'm glad you can agree that unfair judgement of people must be ended in order to help prevent terrible events like the ones we discussed.

As I said, I've never once called a white person a Nazi based on their ethnicity. Nor have I called a conservative person a Nazi based on their politics. FFS, I was a card carrying, dues paying member of the Conservative Party of Canada before I moved to the US.

So yeah. We've always been in agreement that no person should be subjected to unfair judgments or stereotypes based on their race or religion.
I'm just not keen on coddling those who have already decided to kill in the name of twisted ideologies.

No offence, but you're not qualified to speak on how a Jewish person should react to antisemitism.

I can only say that if you live your life in constant suspicion that those around you are being anti-semitic, you're not going to have a great time.

Except I don't. I only think people are antisemitic if they do antisemitic shit. Which tends to be a small minority of people, as most people aren't awful.

[Fedel]

I would say define "understanding." Looking into what causes an individual to embrace white nationalist ideology and the lies that go along with it is certainly helpful. It allows society to examine shortcomings and provide healthy ways for people to have their frustrations dealt with that don't involve believing everyone of certain minority groups needs to die.

There are two types of white nationalists. The ringleaders and followers. The ringleaders are the true believers. They're committed, no matter what. If eveyone else left the movement? They'd stay.
Followers, however, are very frustrated and angry people. And a society that cares for its disadvantaged to ensure that they aren't victims of alienation and frustration and anger will be better off.

I'm glad we can agree on these aspects at least.

Coddling people who have already committed themselves to killing innocents, however, and going on about how we need to understand the poor, misunderstood Nazi? F that.

I would ask you to define "coddling." Because the issues I have lie with the fact that there are some out there who will happily label and demonize people they BELIEVE are irredeemable when that's simply not the case. Too often we forget to give those we disagree the benefit of the doubt and instead assume the worst.

If someone tapdances up to the line of antisemitism? I'm not going to assume it was done out ignorance. In short? I don't have the luxury of that.

I think it's exactly because you live in the day and age that you do that you do possess that luxury. Especially in the context of engaging people on the subject on an online forum.

[Fedel]

Yeah, I have no sympathy for people who kill innocents in the name of a twisted, irrational, racist ideology.

I'm far more concerned about saving others from radicalization than feeling sorry for and coddling those with blood already on their hands.

It's understandable to be more concerned with people who have yet to carry out horrible deeds, I just find it sad that you believe the people who commit these acts are unpitiable.

As I said, I've never once called a white person a Nazi based on their ethnicity. Nor have I called a conservative person a Nazi based on their politics. FFS, I was a card carrying, dues paying member of the Conservative Party of Canada before I moved to the US.

So yeah. We've always been in agreement that no person should be subjected to unfair judgments or stereotypes based on their race or religion.
I'm just not keen on coddling those who have already decided to kill in the name of twisted ideologies.

How do you know if somebody's "already decided to kill?" Do you mean those who have already killed ( if so, I agree ) or those you suspect are willing to kill?

Except I don't. I only think people are antisemitic if they do antisemitic shit. Which tends to be a small minority of people, as most people aren't awful.

I just feel like if you believe the nation you engaged prior was being anti-semetic, that might have been a hasty judgement.

[Prydania]

I would say define "understanding." Looking into what causes an individual to embrace white nationalist ideology and the lies that go along with it is certainly helpful. It allows society to examine shortcomings and provide healthy ways for people to have their frustrations dealt with that don't involve believing everyone of certain minority groups needs to die.

There are two types of white nationalists. The ringleaders and followers. The ringleaders are the true believers. They're committed, no matter what. If eveyone else left the movement? They'd stay.
Followers, however, are very frustrated and angry people. And a society that cares for its disadvantaged to ensure that they aren't victims of alienation and frustration and anger will be better off.

I'm glad we can agree on these aspects at least.

Well there was never any doubt as to what I believed on the matter.

Coddling people who have already committed themselves to killing innocents, however, and going on about how we need to understand the poor, misunderstood Nazi? F that.

I would ask you to define "coddling." Because the issues I have lie with the fact that there are some out there who will happily label and demonize people they BELIEVE are irredeemable when that's simply not the case. Too often we forget to give those we disagree the benefit of the doubt and instead assume the worst.

Well you want me to do define "coddling." I'll counter with saying that you're actually misunderstanding me. When I say I have no desire to coddle "people who have already committed themselves to killing innocents" I'm talking about people who have actually committed acts of terror. Actually shot of synagogues and mosques. Those people are the ones I have no interest in having sympathy for.
And surely you don't either, seeing as they are mass murderers.

If someone tapdances up to the line of antisemitism? I'm not going to assume it was done out ignorance. In short? I don't have the luxury of that.

I think it's exactly because you live in the day and age that you do that you do possess that luxury. Especially in the context of engaging people on the subject on an online forum.

I really don't though. And that's why I said, earlier, that you're not qualified to tell a Jew how they should react to antisemitism. You're speaking from the position of someone not in the cross-hairs of a violent antisemite. It's literally all theoretical for you. For me? It could actually be life and death.
After all, seeing mobs of people march down the streets of an American city chanting antisemitic slogans and waving Nazi flags tends to put things in perspective.

[Diarcesia]

Here's something to think about: how can we prevent tragedies that would be caused by these terrorists without going full Minority Report or thoughtcrime fighters? I'm aware this is more of a hypothetical for a future setting.

[Rising Palms]

In regards to the handling of extreme movements, the state should actively involve itself early on as to avoid allowing them to escalate, no matter how small the movement may appear on the surface. Rather than resorting to condemnation and violence, the nature of these movements should be sought to be understood and its grievances taken seriously. The approach should be multidisciplinary and multifaceted, with police, intelligence, mental health professionals, and other relevant experts consulted with and utilized.

The key is to keep followers of extreme movements away from isolation, with that comes with the painful realization that society must seek to understand and ultimately treat all aspects of itself with love. The people in these movements often feel alienated, confused, and can be experiencing immense internal suffering. At the end of the day, no matter how terrible they seem to be, they are still human beings and should not be dismissed.

The worst thing to do is to ignore them and let a loud minority take things over.

[Prydania]

It's understandable to be more concerned with people who have yet to carry out horrible deeds, I just find it sad that you believe the people who commit these acts are unpitiable.

I don't feel pity. Anger, mostly. When someone commits themselves to your physical destruction and then actively kills people like you? It makes you angry.

How do you know if somebody's "already decided to kill?" Do you mean those who have already killed...

Bingo. Actual people who have gunned down actual innocents.

Except I don't. I only think people are antisemitic if they do antisemitic shit. Which tends to be a small minority of people, as most people aren't awful.

I just feel like if you believe the nation you engaged prior was being anti-semetic, that might have been a hasty judgement.[/quote]
I think when this person attempts to downplay the threat posed by white nationalist terrorists days removed from the second synagogue shooting in less then a year flags are raised. You can call that hasty, I don't. We're at an impasse.

[Diarcesia]

In regards to the handling of extreme movements, the state should actively involve itself early on as to avoid allowing them to escalate, no matter how small the movement may appear on the surface. Rather than resorting to condemnation and violence, the nature of these movements should be sought to be understood and its grievances taken seriously. The approach should be multidisciplinary and multifaceted, with police, intelligence, mental health professionals, and other relevant experts consulted with and utilized.

The key is to keep followers of extreme movements away from isolation, with that comes with the painful realization that society must seek to understand and ultimately treat all aspects of itself with love. The people in these movements often feel alienated, confused, and can be experiencing immense internal suffering. At the end of the day, no matter how terrible they seem to be, they are still human beings and should not be dismissed.

The worst thing to do is to ignore them and let a loud minority take things over.

The thing with that is that if they say what they really think, they might just as well be dead men walking. Ostracized, out of a job, no friends, with a bunch of people hungry for justice stalking around him.

[Fedel]

Well you want me to do define "coddling." I'll counter with saying that you're actually misunderstanding me. When I say I have no desire to coddle "people who have already committed themselves to killing innocents" I'm talking about people who have actually committed acts of terror. Actually shot of synagogues and mosques. Those people are the ones I have no interest in having sympathy for.
And surely you don't either, seeing as they are mass murderers.

Ah, yes, I thought you were speaking of people you BELIEVED harbored these sentiments as opposed to those who had actively carried out such actions. I'm glad you don't hold that belief.

I really don't though. And that's why I said, earlier, that you're not qualified to tell a Jew how they should react to antisemitism. You're speaking from the position of someone not in the cross-hairs of a violent antisemite. It's literally all theoretical for you. For me? It could actually be life and death.
After all, seeing mobs of people march down the streets of an American city chanting antisemitic slogans and waving Nazi flags tends to put things in perspective.

I suppose I can't fully appreciate your perspective without having walked in your shoes, I can only say that as a half Mexican living in a racially tense area, I can understand the desire to give in your suspicions. I only know that they never truly helped me in the long run. Still, my apologies for offering my advice where it wasn't wanted.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Here's something to think about: how can we prevent tragedies that would be caused by these terrorists without going full Minority Report or thoughtcrime fighters? I'm aware this is more of a hypothetical for a future setting.

Awareness.

[Fedel]

I don't feel pity. Anger, mostly. When someone commits themselves to your physical destruction and then actively kills people like you? It makes you angry.

I understand the feeling, I think it's something we have to overcome though if we're to truly understand them.

I think when this person attempts to downplay the threat posed by white nationalist terrorists days removed from the second synagogue shooting in less then a year flags are raised. You can call that hasty, I don't. We're at an impasse.

I suppose we are.

[Prydania]

Here's something to think about: how can we prevent tragedies that would be caused by these terrorists without going full Minority Report or thoughtcrime fighters? I'm aware this is more of a hypothetical for a future setting.

There's no one answer. It's a variety of things.

First, we need to understand that people are drawn to radical ideologies when they feel frustrated or alienated. So let's address that. We need to work to make sure everyone has a stake in society, that everyone matters. Economically? We need to do better at providing for the disadvantaged. And yes, that includes disadvantaged whites. I disagree with nearly everything Ostroeuropa has said here, but they're on the money as far as pointing out that disadvantaged white communities exist and need help.

Secondly? Law enforcement needs to start to rethink what radicalized white nationalist terrorism looks like. They need to get better at monitoring online spaces that serve as hubs for radicalized youth.

Finally? We as a society need to come together and make it clear that no ideology that targets people based on race or religion has as place in society. We collectively did this after the Charlottesville rally.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

We are all well-acquainted with your "feminists and progressives are the primary cause of everything wrong in the world because they're all bad faith actors in a hate movement" hot take. Nice of you to try to clumsily fit it into this discussion after you failed to make it relevant on the first try, though.

Not everything wrong, just the specific problems we're discussing here.
It's not just my hot take. It's a primary driver for the alt-right, though they take this observation to different conclusions. If you don't want to discuss the alt-right and their tenets, don't talk about it in a thread about the alt-right?

Especially in terms of terrorism and what drives them toward it.

I’m pretty sure feminism and progressivism aren’t primary driving causes behind the white nationalism and neo-Nazism of the alt-right, white nationalists and neo-Nazis are.

[Anagonia]

And thus begins the narrative to redirect the national attention from far-left movements such as Antifia, and divide the nation more by focusing on the opponents of the democratic party.

Bunch of sheep.

[Prydania]

I'm glad you don't hold that belief.

I'm not so irrational as to declare someone a mass murderer if they haven't killed anyone
You may not believe this based on our conversation but I do believe that most people who buy into neo-Nazi/racist worldviews can be reformed.
The act of picking up a gun and killing people though? That's a moral event horizon.

Still, my apologies for offering my advice where it wasn't wanted.

It's all good.

[Liriena]

Now you're just playing dumb. I'm talking about white-majority governments and organizations which specifically, explicitly or implicitly, pushed for policies that benefited white people to the detriment of others. Not just vaguely pro-bourgeois policies that just so happened to screw minorities harder.

Which benefits.

You mean other than having exclusive ownership of the means of production, exclusive control over the system of government, exclusive access to the tools that enabled social mobility, and exclusive access to the goods and services necessary for a dignified quality of life?

I am not in cahoots with a murderer who stole their victims wallet merely because i'm not the victim, and I don't benefit from it.

But we do benefit from it. We are the heirs of the murderers of the not-too-distant past and the wealth that they accumulated in no small part because they guaranteed through violence and exclusion their control over social, political, cultural and economic power.

Moreover if I only earn enough to eat, that doesn't benefit my descendants, even if someone elses ancestor died of starvation.

It's almost as if racial discrimination is not the only force that drives socioeconomic inequality in the world.

Moreover you're now the one pushing the zero sum narrative. Minority historical disadvantage does not discount white disadvantage in the modern day. Nor does existing minority disadvantage, because it is situational.

Disadvantaged white people in majority white nations today aren't disadvantaged because there is a systematic effort by the most powerful institutions to specifically exclude white people from ownership of the means of production or access to social mobility. That's just "the West" cannibalizing itself as a mass human sacrifice to capitalism.

[Liriena]

And thus begins the narrative to redirect the national attention from far-left movements such as Antifia, and divide the nation more by focusing on the opponents of the democratic party.

Bunch of sheep.

Antifa hasn't shot up or burned multiple places of worship since 2015.

[Fedel]

Not everything wrong, just the specific problems we're discussing here.
It's not just my hot take. It's a primary driver for the alt-right, though they take this observation to different conclusions. If you don't want to discuss the alt-right and their tenets, don't talk about it in a thread about the alt-right?

Especially in terms of terrorism and what drives them toward it.

I’m pretty sure feminism and progressivism aren’t primary driving causes behind the white nationalism and neo-Nazism of the alt-right, white nationalists and neo-Nazis are.

Heh. You might be surprised. A number of white nationalists believe these factions are responsible for the collapse/degradation of western civilization.