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Alt-right. A terrorist movement in the making?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia
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Posts: 455
Founded: Dec 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:51 pm

Purgatio wrote:
-MAFDET- wrote:
That's a gross misunderstanding of the nature of white privilege. It does not mean that all white people are wealthy. It does not suggest that poor white people have never struggled.

White privilege is the birth child of racial bias and racism. Racial bias is a belief, conscious or otherwise, someone may how towards a particular race. When a white man is walking along the street and, upon facing a group of black men conversing with each other, chooses to cross the street rather than walk anywhere near them is an instance of bias. When a white person takes the time out of their day to call the police on a seemingly inactive black man that is actually behaving perfectly lawfully - that too is an instance of bias.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... iladelphia

When a police officer attempts to justify shooting an unarmed person of color because he "feared for his life" - that is racial bias.

Racism is when these prejudical beliefs become rule of law. Technically, the existence of racism and racial bias is owed to the concept of racialization, which is the societal classification of humans beings into different groups based upon perceived physical differences, particularly skin color. In other words, the creation of race as a social construct.

This arbitrary grouping of other people, concocted by white settlers in this case, laid the foundation for the ongoing mistreatment of people of color. Inevitably, this gave birth to white privilege.
White privilege is the simple fact that your skn pigment is not one of the things that making your life more difficult, while the reverse is true for people of color.

- White people are less likely to be followed or interrogated by law enforcement because they appear "suspicious"

-White people’s skin tone will not be a reason people hesitate to trust their credit or financial responsibility.

-If white people are accused of a crime, they are less likely to be presumed guilty, less likely to be sentenced to death and more likely to be portrayed in a fair, nuanced manner by media outlets

-The personal faults or missteps of white people will likely not be used to later deny opportunities or compassion to people who share their racial identity. My own father, who is a convicted felon, is currently working on a college degree, and has a job as a detox nurse. I am certain he would not have been able to reach this far had he not been white.


As I previously mentioned, non white people are generally more likely to be harassed by law enforcement. New York's now abandoned "Stop and Frisk" policy disproportionately targeted an extensive amount of black and latinex people. https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

People of color are considerably more likely to be arrested for drug offenses despite using at a similar rate as white people. https://www.vox.com/2016/5/8/18089368/w ... eroin-meth

According to this data collected in 2017, unarmed and non-violent people of color are more likely to be shot by police than white people. https://policeviolencereport.org

These are the examples of white privilege that I have listed. I can think of more, but I'm too tired to do it. At any rate, I wrote an essay length post just for you.


1) African-Americans and Hispanics are not 'disproportionately' targeted by Stop and Frisk, because Stop and Frisk is intended to catch potential criminals, and members of those ethnic groups are disproportionately over-represented amongst violent criminals. In the same way as, when the FBI looks for serial killers, it disproportionatly focusses on white men because white men are overrepresented amongst the serial killer population.

2) The myth about black people being arrested for drug offences when they use drugs at the same rate as whites rests on a legal misunderstanding, in the 1960s when anti-drug legislation was passed it penalised more heavily the possession and sale of crack cocaine as opposed to powder cocaine, with the support of African-American community leaders and lawmakers (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/04/19/five_myths_of_the_racist_criminal_justice_system_113894.html), because at the time crack cocaine was more inexpensive and therefore more likely to be consumed in larger quantities by users, and hence warranted a harsher deterrent mandatory minimum. Because African-American drug users were disproportionately more likely to consume crack cocaine compared to powder cocaine than their white counterparts, this resulted in a sentencing disparity even though average drug consumption rates between the two races was similar.

3) Another myth, African-Americans are more likely to be shot by the police but are also more likely to commit crimes and therefore more likely than whites to have interactions with the police in the first place (https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/)

Citing National Review as a source is like me citing Jacobin or Liberation News to prove capitalism is an evil economic model. Not to mention it failed several fact checks and also quoted a false Daily Mail (Tabloid) report on climate change:
"RIGHT BIAS
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.

Overall, we rate the National Review Right Biased based on story selection that always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to misleading claims and occasional use of poor sources.
Detailed Report:
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 45/180

History:

The National Review was founded in 1955 by conservative editor, columnist, author and commentator William F. Buckley Jr. (1925-2008). According to their about page the print magazine and website are corporately known as National Review, Inc. and is a wholly owned subsidiary of the National Review Institute (NRI) based in New York City. In addition to the content published in its print version, the magazine’s web site covers articles, blogs, videos, podcasts, opinion pieces, conservative news, and commentary.

William F. Buckley Jr. appeared in a series of televised debates with Gore Vidal during the 1968 Republican National Convention and this resulted in him suing Vidal and Esquire Magazine due to Vidal calling Buckley “racist, anti-black, anti-semitic and a pro-crypto Nazi.” Buckley eventually settled with Esquire receiving a $115,000 payment and dropped his suit against Vidal.

The National Review promoted Barry Goldwater during the early 1960s and Reagan during the 80’s. E. Garrett Bewkes IV is the publisher of National Review. Richard Lowry is the Editor-in-Chief of National Review Magazine and the online Editor is Charles C. W. Cooke. The chairman is John Hillen and Lindsay Young Craig is the president. The full masthead can be viewed here.

Funded by / Ownership:

The National Review magazine and website are both owned by the National Review Institute. The National Review Institute was founded by William F. Buckley Jr. as a nonprofit and according to an article from The Nation the “National Review‘s biggest financial supporter, Roger Milliken was a Birch Society member. The Southern Poverty Law Center describes the John Birch Society as a conspiracist group, whereas the National Review describes Milliken as one of the “Right’s funding fathers”. According to Sourcewatch, The National Review Institute has received funding from the Charles G. Koch Foundation as well as grants from the right-wing Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports the Bradley Foundation helps fund groups opposing climate regulation.

Analysis / Bias:

The National Review Online, describes itself as “America’s most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion.”

In review, the National Review Online frequently uses loaded emotional wording in headlines that favor the right such as: Weapons of Mass Manipulation. This article was written by conservative pundit Michelle Malkin who has made false claims according to fact checkers. When reporting on President Trump the National Review offers a reasonable balance of pro-Trump and anti-Trump articles with slightly more favoring the President and his policies. National Review typically sources their information to known right leaning sources, but sometimes links to factually mixed sources such as PJ Media and the Daily Mail. Editorially, they endorse conservative policy and politicians, such as their endorsement of Ted Cruz during the 2016 Presidential Election. Finally, story selection always favors the right, while painting liberal policy negatively.

A factual search reveals that in this article the National Review sourced the Daily Mail who falsely reported that NOAA manipulated climate data. This was later debunked by the person they were quoting (Dr. Bates). Further, the National Review did not include the actual statements that Dr. Bates made, which refute the Daily Mail and National Review’s claims of unverified and corrected data. Bates said there was “no data tampering, no data changing, nothing malicious.” “It’s really a story of not disclosing what you did,” Bates said in the interview. “It’s not trumped up data in any way shape or form.” FactCheck.org concluded that the National Review’s article was misleading.

Overall, we rate the National Review Right Biased based on story selection that always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to misleading claims and occasional use of poor sources. (7/19/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 6/20/2018)"

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Purgatio
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Posts: 6478
Founded: May 18, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Purgatio » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:54 pm

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
1) African-Americans and Hispanics are not 'disproportionately' targeted by Stop and Frisk, because Stop and Frisk is intended to catch potential criminals, and members of those ethnic groups are disproportionately over-represented amongst violent criminals. In the same way as, when the FBI looks for serial killers, it disproportionatly focusses on white men because white men are overrepresented amongst the serial killer population.

2) The myth about black people being arrested for drug offences when they use drugs at the same rate as whites rests on a legal misunderstanding, in the 1960s when anti-drug legislation was passed it penalised more heavily the possession and sale of crack cocaine as opposed to powder cocaine, with the support of African-American community leaders and lawmakers (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/04/19/five_myths_of_the_racist_criminal_justice_system_113894.html), because at the time crack cocaine was more inexpensive and therefore more likely to be consumed in larger quantities by users, and hence warranted a harsher deterrent mandatory minimum. Because African-American drug users were disproportionately more likely to consume crack cocaine compared to powder cocaine than their white counterparts, this resulted in a sentencing disparity even though average drug consumption rates between the two races was similar.

3) Another myth, African-Americans are more likely to be shot by the police but are also more likely to commit crimes and therefore more likely than whites to have interactions with the police in the first place (https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/09/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say/)

Citing National Review as a source is like me citing Jacobin or Liberation News to prove capitalism is an evil economic model. Not to mention it failed several fact checks and also quoted a false Daily Mail (Tabloid) report on climate change:
"RIGHT BIAS
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.

Overall, we rate the National Review Right Biased based on story selection that always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to misleading claims and occasional use of poor sources.
Detailed Report:
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 45/180

History:

The National Review was founded in 1955 by conservative editor, columnist, author and commentator William F. Buckley Jr. (1925-2008). According to their about page the print magazine and website are corporately known as National Review, Inc. and is a wholly owned subsidiary of the National Review Institute (NRI) based in New York City. In addition to the content published in its print version, the magazine’s web site covers articles, blogs, videos, podcasts, opinion pieces, conservative news, and commentary.

William F. Buckley Jr. appeared in a series of televised debates with Gore Vidal during the 1968 Republican National Convention and this resulted in him suing Vidal and Esquire Magazine due to Vidal calling Buckley “racist, anti-black, anti-semitic and a pro-crypto Nazi.” Buckley eventually settled with Esquire receiving a $115,000 payment and dropped his suit against Vidal.

The National Review promoted Barry Goldwater during the early 1960s and Reagan during the 80’s. E. Garrett Bewkes IV is the publisher of National Review. Richard Lowry is the Editor-in-Chief of National Review Magazine and the online Editor is Charles C. W. Cooke. The chairman is John Hillen and Lindsay Young Craig is the president. The full masthead can be viewed here.

Funded by / Ownership:

The National Review magazine and website are both owned by the National Review Institute. The National Review Institute was founded by William F. Buckley Jr. as a nonprofit and according to an article from The Nation the “National Review‘s biggest financial supporter, Roger Milliken was a Birch Society member. The Southern Poverty Law Center describes the John Birch Society as a conspiracist group, whereas the National Review describes Milliken as one of the “Right’s funding fathers”. According to Sourcewatch, The National Review Institute has received funding from the Charles G. Koch Foundation as well as grants from the right-wing Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports the Bradley Foundation helps fund groups opposing climate regulation.

Analysis / Bias:

The National Review Online, describes itself as “America’s most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion.”

In review, the National Review Online frequently uses loaded emotional wording in headlines that favor the right such as: Weapons of Mass Manipulation. This article was written by conservative pundit Michelle Malkin who has made false claims according to fact checkers. When reporting on President Trump the National Review offers a reasonable balance of pro-Trump and anti-Trump articles with slightly more favoring the President and his policies. National Review typically sources their information to known right leaning sources, but sometimes links to factually mixed sources such as PJ Media and the Daily Mail. Editorially, they endorse conservative policy and politicians, such as their endorsement of Ted Cruz during the 2016 Presidential Election. Finally, story selection always favors the right, while painting liberal policy negatively.

A factual search reveals that in this article the National Review sourced the Daily Mail who falsely reported that NOAA manipulated climate data. This was later debunked by the person they were quoting (Dr. Bates). Further, the National Review did not include the actual statements that Dr. Bates made, which refute the Daily Mail and National Review’s claims of unverified and corrected data. Bates said there was “no data tampering, no data changing, nothing malicious.” “It’s really a story of not disclosing what you did,” Bates said in the interview. “It’s not trumped up data in any way shape or form.” FactCheck.org concluded that the National Review’s article was misleading.

Overall, we rate the National Review Right Biased based on story selection that always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to misleading claims and occasional use of poor sources. (7/19/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 6/20/2018)"


The National Review article I quoted made use of both national victimisation surveys and official Police Contact Surveys. Please explain how the National Review I quoted was wrong, instead of pulling up some totally unrelated National Review article which was wrong. That is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Beggnig
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Posts: 101
Founded: Apr 11, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Beggnig » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:55 pm

I don't quite see how back and forths about 'muh racial statistics' prove anything about whether the Alt-right are going to become a terrorist movement.
We've had Neo-Nazis doing terrorism for years, but from what I've seen the Alt-right is focused on mainstreaming and it's kinda hard to do that if you're shooting people, etc.
Although that doesn't stop some people like Bowers from deciding to 'screw the optics' and commit mass murder.

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Beggnig
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Posts: 101
Founded: Apr 11, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Beggnig » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:56 pm

Beggnig wrote:I don't quite see how back and forths about 'muh racial statistics' prove anything about whether the Alt-right are going to become a terrorist movement.
We've had Neo-Nazis doing terrorism for years, but from what I've seen the Alt-right is focused on mainstreaming and it's kinda hard to do that if you're shooting people, etc.
Although that doesn't stop some people like Bowers from deciding to 'screw the optics' and commit mass murder.

Also, for those of you in this thread, there really is more to life than racial determinism.

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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia
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Posts: 455
Founded: Dec 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:05 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia wrote:Citing National Review as a source is like me citing Jacobin or Liberation News to prove capitalism is an evil economic model. Not to mention it failed several fact checks and also quoted a false Daily Mail (Tabloid) report on climate change:
"RIGHT BIAS
These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.

Overall, we rate the National Review Right Biased based on story selection that always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to misleading claims and occasional use of poor sources.
Detailed Report:
Factual Reporting: MIXED
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 45/180

History:

The National Review was founded in 1955 by conservative editor, columnist, author and commentator William F. Buckley Jr. (1925-2008). According to their about page the print magazine and website are corporately known as National Review, Inc. and is a wholly owned subsidiary of the National Review Institute (NRI) based in New York City. In addition to the content published in its print version, the magazine’s web site covers articles, blogs, videos, podcasts, opinion pieces, conservative news, and commentary.

William F. Buckley Jr. appeared in a series of televised debates with Gore Vidal during the 1968 Republican National Convention and this resulted in him suing Vidal and Esquire Magazine due to Vidal calling Buckley “racist, anti-black, anti-semitic and a pro-crypto Nazi.” Buckley eventually settled with Esquire receiving a $115,000 payment and dropped his suit against Vidal.

The National Review promoted Barry Goldwater during the early 1960s and Reagan during the 80’s. E. Garrett Bewkes IV is the publisher of National Review. Richard Lowry is the Editor-in-Chief of National Review Magazine and the online Editor is Charles C. W. Cooke. The chairman is John Hillen and Lindsay Young Craig is the president. The full masthead can be viewed here.

Funded by / Ownership:

The National Review magazine and website are both owned by the National Review Institute. The National Review Institute was founded by William F. Buckley Jr. as a nonprofit and according to an article from The Nation the “National Review‘s biggest financial supporter, Roger Milliken was a Birch Society member. The Southern Poverty Law Center describes the John Birch Society as a conspiracist group, whereas the National Review describes Milliken as one of the “Right’s funding fathers”. According to Sourcewatch, The National Review Institute has received funding from the Charles G. Koch Foundation as well as grants from the right-wing Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation. The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports the Bradley Foundation helps fund groups opposing climate regulation.

Analysis / Bias:

The National Review Online, describes itself as “America’s most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion.”

In review, the National Review Online frequently uses loaded emotional wording in headlines that favor the right such as: Weapons of Mass Manipulation. This article was written by conservative pundit Michelle Malkin who has made false claims according to fact checkers. When reporting on President Trump the National Review offers a reasonable balance of pro-Trump and anti-Trump articles with slightly more favoring the President and his policies. National Review typically sources their information to known right leaning sources, but sometimes links to factually mixed sources such as PJ Media and the Daily Mail. Editorially, they endorse conservative policy and politicians, such as their endorsement of Ted Cruz during the 2016 Presidential Election. Finally, story selection always favors the right, while painting liberal policy negatively.

A factual search reveals that in this article the National Review sourced the Daily Mail who falsely reported that NOAA manipulated climate data. This was later debunked by the person they were quoting (Dr. Bates). Further, the National Review did not include the actual statements that Dr. Bates made, which refute the Daily Mail and National Review’s claims of unverified and corrected data. Bates said there was “no data tampering, no data changing, nothing malicious.” “It’s really a story of not disclosing what you did,” Bates said in the interview. “It’s not trumped up data in any way shape or form.” FactCheck.org concluded that the National Review’s article was misleading.

Overall, we rate the National Review Right Biased based on story selection that always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to misleading claims and occasional use of poor sources. (7/19/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 6/20/2018)"


The National Review article I quoted made use of both national victimisation surveys and official Police Contact Surveys. Please explain how the National Review I quoted was wrong, instead of pulling up some totally unrelated National Review article which was wrong. That is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

It's not intellectual dishonesty to point out ideological bias of a media organization (Such as Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Occupy Democrats, Slate, Jacobin, WaPo, etc) and a sketchy record when it comes to citing reliable sources or reporting what the actual data says (As shown when they completely misrepresrnted what Dr. Bates said and distorted his message to fit a McExpert's narrative), and we are not even talking about their funding from the Koch Brothers (Special interests which have a vested goal in not allowing this specific issue to be meaningfully addressed to begin with), the John Birch Society, and of course, climate deniers. If that's not a conflict of interest, then I don't know what else is.

Raw statistics and data is always better than quoting an article from a biased media source that has a track record for misrepresenting findings and quotes from scientists and affiliated authorities. If you posted a link to that, I would have no problem if it was adequately researched and founded on fact, but since you cited NR which is a questionable source at best, well.. *Shrugs*
Last edited by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia on Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 455
Founded: Dec 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:06 pm

Beggnig wrote:
Beggnig wrote:I don't quite see how back and forths about 'muh racial statistics' prove anything about whether the Alt-right are going to become a terrorist movement.
We've had Neo-Nazis doing terrorism for years, but from what I've seen the Alt-right is focused on mainstreaming and it's kinda hard to do that if you're shooting people, etc.
Although that doesn't stop some people like Bowers from deciding to 'screw the optics' and commit mass murder.

Also, for those of you in this thread, there really is more to life than racial determinism.

Truer words have never been spoken.

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-MAFDET-
Attaché
 
Posts: 80
Founded: Feb 03, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby -MAFDET- » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:07 pm

Thank you friend. This is exhausting.
She/Her

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Purgatio
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6478
Founded: May 18, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Purgatio » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:08 pm

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
The National Review article I quoted made use of both national victimisation surveys and official Police Contact Surveys. Please explain how the National Review I quoted was wrong, instead of pulling up some totally unrelated National Review article which was wrong. That is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

It's not intellectual dishonesty to point out ideological bias of a media organization (Such as Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Occupy Democrats, Slate, Jacobin, WaPo, etc) and a sketchy record when it comes to citing reliable sources or reporting what the actual data says (As shown when they completely misrepressnted what Dr. Bates said and distorted his message to fit a McExpert's narrative), and we are not even talking about their funding from the Koch Brothers (Special interest which have a clear goal in not allowing this specific issue to be meaningfully addressed to begin with), the John Birch Society, and of course, climate deniers. If that's not a conflict of interest, then I don't know what else is.

Raw statistics and data is always better than quoting an article from a biased media source that has a track record for misrepresenting findings and quotes from scientists and affiliated authorities. If you posted a link to that, I would have no problem if it was adequately researched and founded on fact, but since you cited NR which is a questionable source at best, well.. *Shrugs*


The argument that African-Americans are not more likely to be shot by the police because of racism, but simply because they are overrepresented amongst criminals and hence overrepresented in interactions with law enforcement, is backed up by the National Crime Victimisation Survey, Police-Public Contact Survey, both of which are compiled by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, all of which are data quoted in the National Review article from above.

If you can prove to me that the National Review misquoted the PPCS, NCVS and BJS statistics, then you have a case. If not, then you have no case. Simple.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Jack Thomas Lang
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1856
Founded: Apr 18, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:08 pm

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia wrote:It's not intellectual dishonesty to point out ideological bias of a media organization (Such as Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Occupy Democrats, Slate, Jacobin, WaPo, etc) and a sketchy record when it comes to citing reliable sources or reporting what the actual data says (As shown when they completely misrepresrnted what Dr. Bates said and distorted his message to fit a McExpert's narrative), and we are not even talking about their funding from the Koch Brothers (Special interests which have a vested goal in not allowing this specific issue to be meaningfully addressed to begin with), the John Birch Society, and of course, climate deniers. If that's not a conflict of interest, then I don't know what else is.

Raw statistics and data is always better than quoting an article from a biased media source that has a track record for misrepresenting findings and quotes from scientists and affiliated authorities. If you posted a link to that, I would have no problem if it was adequately researched and founded on fact, but since you cited NR which is a questionable source at best, well.. *Shrugs*

Seems like a hefty dollop of genetic fallacy to me.

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The Lone Alliance
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Founded: May 25, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Lone Alliance » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:35 pm

They're potentials, but for the most part most of them are too happy sitting on the internet complaining about things then actively doing stuff...

Really a large portion of the alt right are just another side of the people who just want to have this idea that "The world is bad because of X and if we got rid of X the world would be great or if we had more Y things would be great.

(In this case X= "Whatever thing they don't like")
(In this case Y= "Whatever thing they like")
The mindset is incredibly simple minded but it seems to be a common things these days.

They're all the same for the most part and while annoying, pointless, and likely not missed if they were all teleported to a deserted Island, they aren't the ones going out and punching people, or shooting people, or the like. They're annoying but outside of the chaos they can cause from doxxing, death threats, and other internet harassment, they don't have the spine or the insanity to go out and kill people.
(For the most part)

It's pretty much the same with every extremist group, but no one likes to talk about the other extremist groups. So I won't either, there's a vast majority of silent supporters who won't actually do the bad things, but they'll agree with the bad thing. The problem is trying to catch the ones who act from the ones who won't act.

I actually think that socially the alt right have actually gotten much weaker because people are starting to finally ignore them, including the media (Though that'll likely change as the 2020 elections get closer) :(

The terrorism might be a side effect of this realization that people are no longer paying attention to them. Remember at the height of their power the media practically leaned on every antic they committed.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -Herman Goering
--------------
War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; -William Tecumseh Sherman

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Prydania
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Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Prydania » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:39 pm

Skarten wrote:
So then everyone except whites are allowed to be proud about their race?

It's either everyone or no one.

Whites being proud of their race means they have to shoot up synagogues and mosques?
X ᚴᚮᚿᚢᚿᚵᛋᚱᛇᚴᛁ ᛔᚱᛣᛑᛆᚿᛋᚴ
Prydanian political parties
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Salus Maior
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Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Salus Maior » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:48 pm

I think the "Alt-Right" is too vaguely defined (like for instance "SJW's") to say that it as a whole is bound for terrorism.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Prydania
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Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Prydania » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:50 pm

Skarten wrote:Read my statements. Not everyone who's against jews is an nazi.

No, but being against an entire ethno-religious group makes you a piece of human garbage even if you don't tick enough boxes to be a Nazi.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:58 pm

Prydania wrote:
Skarten wrote:Read my statements. Not everyone who's against jews is an nazi.

No, but being against an entire ethno-religious group makes you a piece of human garbage even if you don't tick enough boxes to be a Nazi.

And also Jewish hatred is a key part of Nazism and not the only example.

I brought that up as an example beacuse it is a part in defining what the nazis are. As said from the horse's mouth himself, Adolf Hitler.



There is no geting away from the fact that nazisim comes with hatred for jews.

For Skarten to dismiss it as a "crackpot theory" is absolutely mind boggling.

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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:00 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Prydania wrote:No, but being against an entire ethno-religious group makes you a piece of human garbage even if you don't tick enough boxes to be a Nazi.

And also Jewish hatred is a key part of Nazism and not the only example.

I brought that up as an example beacuse it is a part in defining what the nazis are. As said from the horse's mouth himself, Adolf Hitler.



There is no geting away from the fact that nazisim comes with hatred for jews.

For Skarten to dismiss it as a "crackpot theory" is absolutely mind boggling.

He also somehow doesn't think "Jews Will Not Replace Us" is an antisemitic slur so that kinda raises some red flags.
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Andsed
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Andsed » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:01 pm

Salus Maior wrote:I think the "Alt-Right" is too vaguely defined (like for instance "SJW's") to say that it as a whole is bound for terrorism.

Agreed, I don´t doubt there are those who consider themselves on the far right who may be planning to commit acts of terror but honestly the far right is just so vague saying it is on the whole bound for terrorism is not very accurate.
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Bezkoshtovnya
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Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:01 pm

Prydania wrote:
Skarten wrote:
So then everyone except whites are allowed to be proud about their race?

It's either everyone or no one.

Whites being proud of their race means they have to shoot up synagogues and mosques?

Time be honest I dont really understand the concept of pride in just "being white". Taking a measure in some sort of civic pride in a cultural background (like being proud of ones Scottish, or Polish backgroundfor instance) I can understand, but what is the point of taking generic pride in ones skin color? That to me is the difference between black pride and white pride. Black pride deals with the culture and ethnic background of African-Americans and taking pride in this distinct cultural and ethnic back ground and not just simply about race, while white pride is essentially just taking pride in your race in a generic sense.
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Kragholm Free States
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Kragholm Free States » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:03 pm

Gormwood wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:And also Jewish hatred is a key part of Nazism and not the only example.

I brought that up as an example beacuse it is a part in defining what the nazis are. As said from the horse's mouth himself, Adolf Hitler.



There is no geting away from the fact that nazisim comes with hatred for jews.

For Skarten to dismiss it as a "crackpot theory" is absolutely mind boggling.

He also somehow doesn't think "Jews Will Not Replace Us" is an antisemitic slur so that kinda raises some red flags.


They definitely weren't saying "Jews will not replace us" in that video. There was no J, and there was no S. They were saying "You will not replace us".

Chances are they were still overwhelmingly anti-semitic and racist, but there's no need to pretend they were saying something even worse to make that assertion.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:08 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Gormwood wrote:He also somehow doesn't think "Jews Will Not Replace Us" is an antisemitic slur so that kinda raises some red flags.


They definitely weren't saying "Jews will not replace us" in that video. There was no J, and there was no S. They were saying "You will not replace us".

Chances are they were still overwhelmingly anti-semitic and racist, but there's no need to pretend they were saying something even worse to make that assertion.

Even if they actually said "You," who or what are they referring to? Are the Body Snatchers for real and they're all scared of going to sleep?
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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia
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Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:09 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Gormwood wrote:He also somehow doesn't think "Jews Will Not Replace Us" is an antisemitic slur so that kinda raises some red flags.


They definitely weren't saying "Jews will not replace us" in that video. There was no J, and there was no S. They were saying "You will not replace us".

Chances are they were still overwhelmingly anti-semitic and racist, but there's no need to pretend they were saying something even worse to make that assertion.

They said both the "You" and "Jews" variants of the chant.

"On the evening of Friday, August 11, a group of white nationalists—variously numbered from "dozens"[113] to "about 250"[114]— gathered for an unannounced (and unsanctioned by the city) march through the University of Virginia's campus. They marched towards the University's Lawn chanting Nazi and white supremacist slogans, including "White lives matter"; "You will not replace us"; and "Jews will not replace us".[98][25] (The phrase "You will not replace us" has been reported by the Anti-Defamation League to "reflect the white supremacist world view that ... the white race is doomed to extinction by an alleged 'rising tide of color' purportedly controlled and manipulated by Jews".[71]) The Nazi slogan "Blood and Soil" was also used.[21][113][98][115] The group was primarily composed of white men,[115] many of them wielding tiki torches.[98][115][116]"
Source 98: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-whi ... story.html
Source 25: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/12/us/c ... alist.html

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:09 pm

Kragholm Free States wrote:
Gormwood wrote:He also somehow doesn't think "Jews Will Not Replace Us" is an antisemitic slur so that kinda raises some red flags.


They definitely weren't saying "Jews will not replace us" in that video. There was no J, and there was no S. They were saying "You will not replace us".

Chances are they were still overwhelmingly anti-semitic and racist, but there's no need to pretend they were saying something even worse to make that assertion.



Replacement theory is trash anyway.

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Prydania
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Prydania » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:10 pm

Bezkoshtovnya wrote:
Prydania wrote:Whites being proud of their race means they have to shoot up synagogues and mosques?

Time be honest I dont really understand the concept of pride in just "being white". Taking a measure in some sort of civic pride in a cultural background (like being proud of ones Scottish, or Polish backgroundfor instance) I can understand, but what is the point of taking generic pride in ones skin color? That to me is the difference between black pride and white pride. Black pride deals with the culture and ethnic background of African-Americans and taking pride in this distinct cultural and ethnic back ground and not just simply about race, while white pride is essentially just taking pride in your race in a generic sense.

That's the kicker, isn't it? White nationalists like to talk about the lack of pride there is for a white person's sense of ethnicity but that's easily proven false. Polish, Scottish, Irish, Italian, Dutch, German, Greek, etc... cultural festivals are a dime a dozen in the US and Canada. You want to experience your ethnic background? There are ways to do it that don't involve genocidal politics/advocating violence against ethnic minorities.
Last edited by Prydania on Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:11 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Kragholm Free States wrote:
They definitely weren't saying "Jews will not replace us" in that video. There was no J, and there was no S. They were saying "You will not replace us".

Chances are they were still overwhelmingly anti-semitic and racist, but there's no need to pretend they were saying something even worse to make that assertion.



Replacement theory is trash anyway.

Some white guys get a peek at interracial cuck porn and suddenly feel their race faces extinction.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:12 pm

I received an email from the Tea Party the other day, remember them? Anyway, it was all about Muslims working at Notre Dame insinuating they probably started the fire. They seem to have fully devolved into what they effectively always were but pretended not to be, a bunch of racist 'patriots' on a full anti-Soros platform.

Likewise the alt-right may pretend to really be about stabbing through the cocoon of PC talk that stifles debate but slowly they'll be reduced like stock into the same flavourful bunch of racist, misogynistic set of assholes that forms their core.

Frankly I don't think they're particularly important in the long run, however we want to name the same set of people whether Tea Party or Alt-Right I think, more importantly, the role of the religious right is the real issue in US politics and I wonder what it will take for them to take a real hard look at what supporting the end over the means is doing to their following.

Christianity is dropping quite quickly in the US, and the stench of hypocrisy surrounding their choice of support will only further this.

Are Alt-Right terrorists, they're just another name in the long history of small government radicals with added salt.
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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia
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Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpattia » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:13 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Kragholm Free States wrote:
They definitely weren't saying "Jews will not replace us" in that video. There was no J, and there was no S. They were saying "You will not replace us".

Chances are they were still overwhelmingly anti-semitic and racist, but there's no need to pretend they were saying something even worse to make that assertion.



Replacement theory is trash anyway.

This. I am surprised nobody declared it as a "canard" yet.

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