NATION

PASSWORD

Alt-right. A terrorist movement in the making?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53352
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:28 pm

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Saiwania is, and I can't believe I'm saying this, actually right though. When you really get down to it, especially in politics, opposing views often can't coexist and requires the destruction whether literal or figurative of the opposition to truly pursue their ideas. Conservatism and progressivism cannot coexist together, one of them has to be destroyed for the other to flourish etc etc.

Tbh, the only way to accept he's right is to accept that conservatism in general has been the against American and Western values of liberty and freedom since the beginning. Conservatives were generally the royalists during the Revolution, the slavers and anti-abolitionists during the civil war and against the civil rights movement during the 1950s and 60s. Conservatism as an ideology is against the ideals of freedom since conservatism is rigidly against any kind of change.


That was but one example, it works for lots of others. Libertarians and authoritarians can't coexist. Communists and capitalists can't. Fascists and opponents of the state can't. National socialists and people not of their race can't etc etc.
Hellenic Polytheist, Socialist

User avatar
Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:29 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Tbh, the only way to accept he's right is to accept that conservatism in general has been the against American and Western values of liberty and freedom since the beginning. Conservatives were generally the royalists during the Revolution, the slavers and anti-abolitionists during the civil war and against the civil rights movement during the 1950s and 60s. Conservatism as an ideology is against the ideals of freedom since conservatism is rigidly against any kind of change.


That was but one example, it works for lots of others. Libertarians and authoritarians can't coexist. Communists and capitalists can't. Fascists and opponents of the state can't. National socialists and people not of their race can't etc etc.


That is a dark road you are taking there.

User avatar
-MAFDET-
Attaché
 
Posts: 80
Founded: Feb 03, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby -MAFDET- » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:29 pm

Which is to be expected given the Right Wing is out of favor at the moment, politically speaking. Desperate people do stupid things. Republicans are overwhelmingly peaceful as well. And yet a few nutjobs seem sufficient to condemn all conservatism as violent bigotry.

More or less.


There is a reactionary President in office right now. This is politically ignorant.

They didn't catch who did it, but given they spraypainted a swastika on the building along with the words "Nazi Republicans leave town or else."


Please don’t make random claims that have no source.

Not really. Right Wing Terrorism while common is typically poorly planned. It's literally mostly 'Some redneck guy gets a gun and shoots some people.' With the possible exception of that time a guy got inventive and slammed a prop plane into an IRS building.


The lack of theatricality is totally irrelevant. Right wing terror attacks have been a recurring phenomenon for several decades, and are amplified by the dog whistles of Trump.
She/Her

User avatar
Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 111677
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:34 pm

-MAFDET- wrote:
Which is to be expected given the Right Wing is out of favor at the moment, politically speaking. Desperate people do stupid things. Republicans are overwhelmingly peaceful as well. And yet a few nutjobs seem sufficient to condemn all conservatism as violent bigotry.

More or less.


There is a reactionary President in office right now. This is politically ignorant.

They didn't catch who did it, but given they spraypainted a swastika on the building along with the words "Nazi Republicans leave town or else."


Please don’t make random claims that have no source.

Not really. Right Wing Terrorism while common is typically poorly planned. It's literally mostly 'Some redneck guy gets a gun and shoots some people.' With the possible exception of that time a guy got inventive and slammed a prop plane into an IRS building.


The lack of theatricality is totally irrelevant. Right wing terror attacks have been a recurring phenomenon for several decades, and are amplified by the dog whistles of Trump.

Pro-tip: Use the built in quote function so people can tell who it is you're quoting.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:35 pm

To expand on my point, you're attributing a quality to whiteness that relies on misrepresenting data. If I were to say, "The patients in ward A are ill, and the patients in ward B are healthy.", what would that imply to you?

Would it imply that half the patients in ward A are going to die in 24 hours and half the patients in ward B are going to die in 48?

If so, you might just be a progressive statistician. If you then go further and vilify people who challenge this, attempt to deny medicine to people in ward B on the grounds they are healthy, and so on, we might just be justified in suspecting ulterior motives for you pulling this stunt.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:37 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Liriena wrote:BLM and antifa aren't synonyms and, in fact, BLM is an overwhelmingly peaceful movement.


You mean like the assassination attempts on everyone Trump hates by the MAGA bomber and the Coast Guard?


Oh, man, I wish there was actual anarchy. :(

Also, antifa didn't invent street violence.


Who did it, specifically? Did they ever catch the culprit? Did they leave anything to identify them or their motivations?


That's


Around one week after the mass shooting, the suspect said that the attack was revenge for the 2015 Charleston church shooting.

That's not antifa.


Never said they didn't?

Left-wing violence exists, yes. But that's not what this thread is about, nor is it as large a threat as right-wing terrorism.


How so?

I mean, a lot of these recent right-wing terrorists actually named influences in their manifestos or left behind evidence of who influenced them. Ben Shapiro, Candace Owens, etc.


It's also a larger threat than left-wing terrorism, with quite a substantial difference in terms of scale and sheer brutality.


Which is to be expected given the Right Wing is out of favor at the moment, politically speaking.

The right controls the executive branch, half the legislative branch, the judiciary branch and most state governments, and even the opposition still has a strong right-wing faction within.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Desperate people do stupid things.

Disregarding the terrorism apologia... "desperate" over what, exactly? Not having absolute power? Not being able to deport every immigrant and Muslim? Desperate that the libs didn't all spontaneously die when Trump won? Desperate that Hillary Clinton, AKA Satan in the flesh, hasn't been hanged? Desperate that their government hasn't put more children in concentration camps?

The Emerald Legion wrote:Republicans are overwhelmingly peaceful as well. And yet a few nutjobs seem sufficient to condemn all conservatism as violent bigotry.

Who is doing that? I certainly think that conservatism in its American form is bigoted and kind of a dead weight for all humanity, but I'd say that it's violent side is mostly comprised of stuff like killing civilians abroad in illegal wars and torturing people who haven't even been given due process.

The Emerald Legion wrote:They didn't catch who did it, but given they spraypainted a swastika on the building along with the words "Nazi Republicans leave town or else."

Not a bad bit of deduction.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Not really. Right Wing Terrorism while common is typically poorly planned. It's literally mostly 'Some redneck guy gets a gun and shoots some people.' With the possible exception of that time a guy got inventive and slammed a prop plane into an IRS building.

And left-wing terrorism? Is it better planned or something? Better coordinated?

The Emerald Legion wrote:Also, I don't care whether it was Antifa or not. Antifa is just a branch on a tree.

For someone so adamantly upset at the idea of conservatives being associated with political violence, the underlined might lend itself to rather unfortunate implications.

The Emerald Legion wrote:And again, because a violent person agreed with something makes it inherently wrong? This is prime 'Hitler at sugar.'

Except it's not at all like 'Hitler ate sugar'. There's a credible link between the rhetoric of far right figures like Ben Shapiro and the actions of people like teh Quebec mosque shooter. Ben Shapiro has spent much of his punditry career stoking an existential terror of Muslims among his fanbase, an existential terror that the Quebec mosque shooter, a huge fan of his, came to share and eventually took to its logical extreme.

It's more like 'Hitler said Jews were insidious vermin out to destroy Germany and his fanboys went on to burn a synagogue despite him not necessarily personally commanding it'.
Last edited by Liriena on Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
The Emerald Legion
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10695
Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:37 pm

-MAFDET- wrote:
Which is to be expected given the Right Wing is out of favor at the moment, politically speaking. Desperate people do stupid things. Republicans are overwhelmingly peaceful as well. And yet a few nutjobs seem sufficient to condemn all conservatism as violent bigotry.

More or less.


There is a reactionary President in office right now. This is politically ignorant.

They didn't catch who did it, but given they spraypainted a swastika on the building along with the words "Nazi Republicans leave town or else."


Please don’t make random claims that have no source.

Not really. Right Wing Terrorism while common is typically poorly planned. It's literally mostly 'Some redneck guy gets a gun and shoots some people.' With the possible exception of that time a guy got inventive and slammed a prop plane into an IRS building.


The lack of theatricality is totally irrelevant. Right wing terror attacks have been a recurring phenomenon for several decades, and are amplified by the dog whistles of Trump.


Nonsensical. Trump isn't even conservative. He's a Nationalist who apes conservative talking points for votes.

It's not random, it's the fact. Google the incident. I've given you all you need to look it up.

They're a recurring phenomenon yes. Murder happens. It's happened in literally every society. However, correlation =/= Causation.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:46 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:Disadvantaged white people in majority white nations today aren't disadvantaged because there is a systematic effort by the most powerful institutions to specifically exclude white people from ownership of the means of production or access to social mobility. That's just "the West" cannibalizing itself as a mass human sacrifice to capitalism.


Disagree, these effects can stack up pretty quickly Lir. The impact of the progressive left and so on.

What impact, specifically? And if you're gonna bring up that poll about Britons' perceptions of different age, gender and racial groups, I'm gonna preempt that by reminding you, yet again, that that particular poll showed that elderly white Britons were the most positively regarded group. And no, I won't accept mean racist tweets from that one NYT journalist either.

Are white people in, say, the United States, disproportionately affected by poverty, and can that be traced back to policies directly seeking to marginalize them?

Are white people disadvantaged by continued school segregation?

Is white unemployment higher than that of black people?

Are white people disproportionately targeted by law enforcement?

Are white people underrepresented in popular culture and negatively stereotyped on a constant basis by a culture industry dominated by non-white people?

Are white people underrepresented in positions of power, be it economic or political?

Is there a problem of widespread targeted violence against white people? Something akin to a hate movement, that destroys white organizations or places of worship or attempts to murder white people en masse in an attempt to spark a race war?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:49 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:To expand on my point, you're attributing a quality to whiteness that relies on misrepresenting data. If I were to say, "The patients in ward A are ill, and the patients in ward B are healthy.", what would that imply to you?

Would it imply that half the patients in ward A are going to die in 24 hours and half the patients in ward B are going to die in 48?

If so, you might just be a progressive statistician. If you then go further and vilify people who challenge this, attempt to deny medicine to people in ward B on the grounds they are healthy, and so on, we might just be justified in suspecting ulterior motives for you pulling this stunt.

I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Are the patients in ward B actually healthy or are they actually going to die?

Also, "vilify people who challenge this"? Which people? The conservatives, reactionaries and white supremacists? Yeah, we're gonna challenge them. This might come as a shock to you, but most people who go around talking out loud about the oppression of the white man aren't ideological carbon copies of you just honestly trying to give white people a collective voice without any bigotry. And we should only engage with them insofar as keeping them as far away from power as humanly possible, for everyone's sake.
Last edited by Liriena on Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Diarcesia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6311
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:51 pm

Liriena wrote:Is there a problem of widespread targeted violence against white people? Something akin to a hate movement, that destroys white organizations or places of worship or attempts to murder white people en masse in an attempt to spark a race war?


9/11. It set in motion the chain of events that lead to this discussion. To the point that some wouldn't mind responding in kind.
Last edited by Diarcesia on Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:54 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Liriena wrote:Is there a problem of widespread targeted violence against white people? Something akin to a hate movement, that destroys white organizations or places of worship or attempts to murder white people en masse in an attempt to spark a race war?


9/11. It set in motion the chain of events that lead to this discussion. To the point that some wouldn't mind responding in kind.

I wasn't aware that 9/11 was because al-Qaeda hated white people specifically rather than... y'know... American imperialism and people of other religions...

But I do appreciate the flaccid attempt to kinda excuse terrorist acts against Muslims, I guess?
Last edited by Liriena on Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:57 pm

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Disagree, these effects can stack up pretty quickly Lir. The impact of the progressive left and so on.

What impact, specifically? And if you're gonna bring up that poll about Britons' perceptions of different age, gender and racial groups, I'm gonna preempt that by reminding you, yet again, that that particular poll showed that elderly white Britons were the most positively regarded group. And no, I won't accept mean racist tweets from that one NYT journalist either.

Are white people in, say, the United States, disproportionately affected by poverty, and can that be traced back to policies directly seeking to marginalize them?

Are white people disadvantaged by continued school segregation?

Is white unemployment higher than that of black people?

Are white people disproportionately targeted by law enforcement?

Are white people underrepresented in popular culture and negatively stereotyped on a constant basis by a culture industry dominated by non-white people?

Are white people underrepresented in positions of power, be it economic or political?

Is there a problem of widespread targeted violence against white people? Something akin to a hate movement, that destroys white organizations or places of worship or attempts to murder white people en masse in an attempt to spark a race war?


Poverty;
In the UK whites are performing worst at schools due to progressive politics not considering it worth doing much about. There's also the study showing people are more active in fighting poverty when exposed to minority homeless people compared to white homeless people, speculated to be a cause of this privilege myth and the notion whites must have done something to become homeless whereas black people had something done to them. This can be extrapolated in general. The Rotherham rape gangs was caused in part because the victims were viewed as "White trash.", suggesting that the effect of poverty on whites places them with a racialized status to those in power in addition to them also putting up with progressive bullshit and anti-white racism. You noted that a white person becoming muslim racialized them, so you should grasp that point.

Yes, school segregation does disadvantage white people because of the aforementioned targets and education philosophy informed by progressive identity politics.

Half of all white people are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement. Half of all minorities are not.

It doesn't matter who dominates it. Whites are being demonized and portrayed negatively because of anti-western sentiment, anti-white racism and so on. internalized racism is a thing. Pathological altruism run rampant. If you want a plausible explanation for the source, i'd wager communist academics and Russian interference since the cold war that simply spread and mutated like a virus since then exactly as intended. There are often signs of deliberate anti-westernism similar to peddling anti-Semitic myths and misrepresentations and so on.

White interests and issues have almost no representation because it is forbidden to raise them.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Fedel
Minister
 
Posts: 2059
Founded: Mar 08, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Fedel » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:57 pm

Liriena wrote:most people who go around talking out loud about the oppression of the white man aren't ideological carbon copies of you just honestly trying to give white people a collective voice without any bigotry.

And we should only engage with them insofar as keeping them as far away from power as humanly possible, for everyone's sake.


And how do you propose we go about taking away power from this group of people without discriminating against the subset who you would be ok with having some form of influence?

Or is it one of those situation where we're punishing the group for the actions of the ( perceived ) majority?
Last edited by Fedel on Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Diarcesia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6311
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:58 pm

Liriena wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:
9/11. It set in motion the chain of events that lead to this discussion. To the point that some wouldn't mind responding in kind.

I wasn't aware that 9/11 was because al-Qaeda hated white people specifically rather than... y'know... American imperialism and people of other religions...

But I do appreciate the flaccid attempt to kinda excuse terrorist acts against Muslims, I guess?

I'm not excusing anything. I hope it's understood that to many of the alt-right, race and civilization has a large overlap, and thus, an attack against America and Western civilization is by extension an attack against whites, if only because that's the civilization the majority of whites belong to.

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:58 pm

Liriena wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:To expand on my point, you're attributing a quality to whiteness that relies on misrepresenting data. If I were to say, "The patients in ward A are ill, and the patients in ward B are healthy.", what would that imply to you?

Would it imply that half the patients in ward A are going to die in 24 hours and half the patients in ward B are going to die in 48?

If so, you might just be a progressive statistician. If you then go further and vilify people who challenge this, attempt to deny medicine to people in ward B on the grounds they are healthy, and so on, we might just be justified in suspecting ulterior motives for you pulling this stunt.

I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Are the patients in ward B actually healthy or are they actually going to die?

Also, "vilify people who challenge this"? Which people? The conservatives, reactionaries and white supremacists? Yeah, we're gonna challenge them. This might come as a shock to you, but most people who go around talking out loud about the oppression of the white man aren't ideological carbon copies of you just honestly trying to give white people a collective voice without any bigotry. And we should only engage with them insofar as keeping them as far away from power as humanly possible, for everyone's sake.


Half the patients in both wards are going to die. Half of all whites face disproportionate violence and unjust treatment by the justice system. Half of all black people face lenient treatment.

But, because many progressives utilize a racist worldview, they can't handle that shit, and need to view both "wards" as monolithic entities relative to eachother.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Diarcesia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6311
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:59 pm

Fedel wrote:
Liriena wrote:most people who go around talking out loud about the oppression of the white man aren't ideological carbon copies of you just honestly trying to give white people a collective voice without any bigotry.

And we should only engage with them insofar as keeping them as far away from power as humanly possible, for everyone's sake.


And how do you propose we go about taking away power from this group of people without discriminating against the subset who you would be ok with having some form of influence?

Or is it one of those situation where we're punishing the group for the actions of the ( perceived ) majority?

Paradox of intolerance. It can be explained as not tolerating bigots being a virtue.

User avatar
Bezkoshtovnya
Senator
 
Posts: 4699
Founded: Sep 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:59 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Liriena wrote:Is there a problem of widespread targeted violence against white people? Something akin to a hate movement, that destroys white organizations or places of worship or attempts to murder white people en masse in an attempt to spark a race war?


9/11. It set in motion the chain of events that lead to this discussion. To the point that some wouldn't mind responding in kind.

9/11 was not an attack on white people motivated by the fact they are white. It was to do with attacking the West. Just because people in the west are white does not mean the motive behind this attack was because of this.
Dante Alighieri wrote:There is no greater sorrow than to recall happiness in times of misery
Charlie Chaplin wrote:Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles.
ΦΣK
------------------

User avatar
Diarcesia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6311
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:00 pm

Bezkoshtovnya wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:
9/11. It set in motion the chain of events that lead to this discussion. To the point that some wouldn't mind responding in kind.

9/11 was not an attack on white people motivated by the fact they are white. It was to do with attacking the West. Just because people in the west are white does not mean the motive behind this attack was because of this.


Yes. And again.

Diarcesia wrote:...I hope it's understood that to many of the alt-right, race and civilization has a large overlap, and thus, an attack against America and Western civilization is by extension an attack against whites, if only because that's the civilization the majority of whites belong to.

User avatar
The Emerald Legion
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10695
Founded: Mar 18, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Emerald Legion » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:01 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
Which is to be expected given the Right Wing is out of favor at the moment, politically speaking.

The right controls the executive branch, half the legislative branch, the judiciary branch and most state governments, and even the opposition still has a strong right-wing faction within.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Desperate people do stupid things.

Disregarding the terrorism apologia... "desperate" over what, exactly? Not having absolute power? Not being able to deport every immigrant and Muslim? Desperate that the libs didn't all spontaneously die when Trump won? Desperate that Hillary Clinton, AKA Satan in the flesh, hasn't been hanged? Desperate that their government hasn't put more children in concentration camps?

The Emerald Legion wrote:Republicans are overwhelmingly peaceful as well. And yet a few nutjobs seem sufficient to condemn all conservatism as violent bigotry.

Who is doing that? I certainly think that conservatism in its American form is bigoted and kind of a dead weight for all humanity, but I'd say that it's violent side is mostly comprised of stuff like killing civilians abroad in illegal wars and torturing people who haven't even been given due process.

The Emerald Legion wrote:They didn't catch who did it, but given they spraypainted a swastika on the building along with the words "Nazi Republicans leave town or else."

Not a bad bit of deduction.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Not really. Right Wing Terrorism while common is typically poorly planned. It's literally mostly 'Some redneck guy gets a gun and shoots some people.' With the possible exception of that time a guy got inventive and slammed a prop plane into an IRS building.

And left-wing terrorism? Is it better planned or something? Better coordinated?

The Emerald Legion wrote:Also, I don't care whether it was Antifa or not. Antifa is just a branch on a tree.

For someone so adamantly upset at the idea of conservatives being associated with political violence, the underlined might lend itself to rather unfortunate implications.

The Emerald Legion wrote:And again, because a violent person agreed with something makes it inherently wrong? This is prime 'Hitler at sugar.'

Except it's not at all like 'Hitler ate sugar'. There's a credible link between the rhetoric of far right figures like Ben Shapiro and the actions of people like teh Quebec mosque shooter. Ben Shapiro has spent much of his punditry career stoking an existential terror of Muslims among his fanbase, an existential terror that the Quebec mosque shooter, a huge fan of his, came to share and eventually took to its logical extreme.

It's more like 'Hitler said Jews were insidious vermin out to destroy Germany and his fanboys went on to burn a synagogue despite him not necessarily personally commanding it'.


And their managing to take that control sparked a wave of violent outrage across the country, including murders and assassination attempts and the ongoing political bullshit that's carried on until this day. Please don't pretend that just because they managed to grab a single election they have control over the political structure of our country.

No idea. I'm not desperate. I don't see our situation as desperate. I find their despair stupid. I'm concerned, of course. Who wouldn't be? For much the same reason as Prydania is concerned when people start chanting "Jews will not replace us."

Not particularly. Both are relatively minor incidents. Again, the grand total of terror attacks from 2010 to now, combined, among all causes of Terrorism.... Left, Right, and Islamic, there were 155 fatalities.

Meanwhile being struck by lightning killed 408 people.You are more than twice as likely to be killed by lightning, proverbial for it's rarity, than to be killed by Terrorism.

Terrorism is not a problem we need to take drastic measures to solve. Catch the criminals, and put them through the courts.
"23.The unwise man is awake all night, and ponders everything over; when morning comes he is weary in mind, and all is a burden as ever." - Havamal

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:02 pm

Bezkoshtovnya wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:
9/11. It set in motion the chain of events that lead to this discussion. To the point that some wouldn't mind responding in kind.

9/11 was not an attack on white people motivated by the fact they are white. It was to do with attacking the West. Just because people in the west are white does not mean the motive behind this attack was because of this.


"The west" and "Whites" are not really separate concepts according to many progressives though.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Bezkoshtovnya
Senator
 
Posts: 4699
Founded: Sep 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:03 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Bezkoshtovnya wrote:9/11 was not an attack on white people motivated by the fact they are white. It was to do with attacking the West. Just because people in the west are white does not mean the motive behind this attack was because of this.


"The west" and "Whites" are not really separate concepts according to many progressives though.

The attack was perpetrated by al-Qaeda, not progressives. The claim that the attack was somehow the catalyst of attacking people for being white and was motivated because of race is not correct.
Dante Alighieri wrote:There is no greater sorrow than to recall happiness in times of misery
Charlie Chaplin wrote:Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles.
ΦΣK
------------------

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:07 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Liriena wrote:The right controls the executive branch, half the legislative branch, the judiciary branch and most state governments, and even the opposition still has a strong right-wing faction within.


Disregarding the terrorism apologia... "desperate" over what, exactly? Not having absolute power? Not being able to deport every immigrant and Muslim? Desperate that the libs didn't all spontaneously die when Trump won? Desperate that Hillary Clinton, AKA Satan in the flesh, hasn't been hanged? Desperate that their government hasn't put more children in concentration camps?


Who is doing that? I certainly think that conservatism in its American form is bigoted and kind of a dead weight for all humanity, but I'd say that it's violent side is mostly comprised of stuff like killing civilians abroad in illegal wars and torturing people who haven't even been given due process.


Not a bad bit of deduction.


And left-wing terrorism? Is it better planned or something? Better coordinated?


For someone so adamantly upset at the idea of conservatives being associated with political violence, the underlined might lend itself to rather unfortunate implications.


Except it's not at all like 'Hitler ate sugar'. There's a credible link between the rhetoric of far right figures like Ben Shapiro and the actions of people like teh Quebec mosque shooter. Ben Shapiro has spent much of his punditry career stoking an existential terror of Muslims among his fanbase, an existential terror that the Quebec mosque shooter, a huge fan of his, came to share and eventually took to its logical extreme.

It's more like 'Hitler said Jews were insidious vermin out to destroy Germany and his fanboys went on to burn a synagogue despite him not necessarily personally commanding it'.


And their managing to take that control sparked a wave of violent outrage across the country, including murders and assassination attempts and the ongoing political bullshit that's carried on until this day. Please don't pretend that just because they managed to grab a single election they have control over the political structure of our country.

No idea. I'm not desperate. I don't see our situation as desperate. I find their despair stupid. I'm concerned, of course. Who wouldn't be? For much the same reason as Prydania is concerned when people start chanting "Jews will not replace us."

Not particularly. Both are relatively minor incidents. Again, the grand total of terror attacks from 2010 to now, combined, among all causes of Terrorism.... Left, Right, and Islamic, there were 155 fatalities.

Meanwhile being struck by lightning killed 408 people.You are more than twice as likely to be killed by lightning, proverbial for it's rarity, than to be killed by Terrorism.

Terrorism is not a problem we need to take drastic measures to solve. Catch the criminals, and put them through the courts.


If we spent the money on fighting terrorism on building lightning rods instead, we'd save more lives and fix global warming too.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Diarcesia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6311
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Diarcesia » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:07 pm

Bezkoshtovnya wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
"The west" and "Whites" are not really separate concepts according to many progressives though.

The attack was perpetrated by al-Qaeda, not progressives. The claim that the attack was somehow the catalyst of attacking people for being white and was motivated because of race is not correct.


Since the topic is about alt-right terrorism, it's important to try to "emulate" an alt-rightist's perspective. It's only a search away to finding a plethora of manifestos on how Western civilization/white race is under siege by the evil hordes.

User avatar
Bezkoshtovnya
Senator
 
Posts: 4699
Founded: Sep 06, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Bezkoshtovnya » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:11 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Bezkoshtovnya wrote:The attack was perpetrated by al-Qaeda, not progressives. The claim that the attack was somehow the catalyst of attacking people for being white and was motivated because of race is not correct.


Since the topic is about alt-right terrorism, it's important to try to "emulate" an alt-rightist's perspective. It's only a search away to finding a plethora of manifestos on how Western civilization/white race is under siege by the evil hordes.

If that is their perspective on 9/11 and how it somehow influenced progressives and an attack on the white race it is objectively false and does nothing to somehow give credit to their perspective, seeing as how it that is essentially making things up in order to try and give legitimacy to their beliefs, and falsifying things to push a narrative and claiming it is true. If anything, it only further discredits their beliefs, seeing as how they have to try and falsify evidence to support what they are trying to claim.
Dante Alighieri wrote:There is no greater sorrow than to recall happiness in times of misery
Charlie Chaplin wrote:Nothing is permanent in this wicked world, not even our troubles.
ΦΣK
------------------

User avatar
Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:11 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Liriena wrote:What impact, specifically? And if you're gonna bring up that poll about Britons' perceptions of different age, gender and racial groups, I'm gonna preempt that by reminding you, yet again, that that particular poll showed that elderly white Britons were the most positively regarded group. And no, I won't accept mean racist tweets from that one NYT journalist either.

Are white people in, say, the United States, disproportionately affected by poverty, and can that be traced back to policies directly seeking to marginalize them?

Are white people disadvantaged by continued school segregation?

Is white unemployment higher than that of black people?

Are white people disproportionately targeted by law enforcement?

Are white people underrepresented in popular culture and negatively stereotyped on a constant basis by a culture industry dominated by non-white people?

Are white people underrepresented in positions of power, be it economic or political?

Is there a problem of widespread targeted violence against white people? Something akin to a hate movement, that destroys white organizations or places of worship or attempts to murder white people en masse in an attempt to spark a race war?


Poverty;
In the UK whites are performing worst at schools due to progressive politics not considering it worth doing much about. There's also the study showing people are more active in fighting poverty when exposed to minority homeless people compared to white homeless people, speculated to be a cause of this privilege myth and the notion whites must have done something to become homeless whereas black people had something done to them. This can be extrapolated in general. The Rotherham rape gangs was caused in part because the victims were viewed as "White trash.", suggesting that the effect of poverty on whites places them with a racialized status to those in power in addition to them also putting up with progressive bullshit and anti-white racism. You noted that a white person becoming muslim racialized them, so you should grasp that point.

Yes, school segregation does disadvantage white people because of the aforementioned targets and education philosophy informed by progressive identity politics.

In the UK. Which I will admit seems quite awful and definitely a sign that something's messed up in how British progressivism has thought and operated. But the UK is not the only country with a right-wing terrorism problem. In fact, this thread started off with reports from Canada, and much of the discussion has revolved around the United States. I can't speak for the Canadian case... but in the American case, the issues you raised aren't there.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Half of all white people are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement. Half of all minorities are not.

You asked about race and we're talking about race. Don't pivot to gender to score bonus points in your crusade against feminism.

Ostroeuropa wrote:It doesn't matter who dominates it. Whites are being demonized and portrayed negatively because of anti-western sentiment, anti-white racism and so on.

Who? How? Where? On what platforms? And how many people do those platforms reach?

Ostroeuropa wrote:internalized racism is a thing. Pathological altruism run rampant. If you want a plausible explanation for the source, i'd wager communist academics and Russian interference since the cold war that simply spread and mutated like a virus since then exactly as intended. There are often signs of deliberate anti-westernism similar to peddling anti-Semitic myths and misrepresentations and so on.

Criticism of western superiority narratives is not the same as anti-semitic myths.

Ostroeuropa wrote:White interests and issues have almost no representation because it is forbidden to raise them.

Not by law it isn't. And even if it's frowned upon by many people, that definitely hasn't stopped many others from trying to speak about those issues... aaaaaand, yet again, all of those peoples (or at least, all of the public figures) who have talked about them turned out to be white supremacists or, at the very least, had some very nasty things to say about other groups of people.
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: -Astoria-, Democratic Poopland, Kenmoria, Khardsland, Valehart

Advertisement

Remove ads