China's list of 48 extremist tendencies

[Andsed]

So executing 100 million mostly innocent would be okay if it stopped one crime?

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where that would be true, but theoretically, yeah.

So your okay will killing millions of innocents to stop just one crime? You do the see the issue with that right?

Except for those who grow beards, wear hijaabs, fast, eat Halaal, don't drink or smoke, and say their prayers in Arabic. They're screwed.

If you choose to live as a religious fundamentalist in a state that is deeply suspicious of religious fundamentalists then you tacitly accept the consequences willingly as a necessary sacrifice for your faith.

Or we could not punish innocents for the crimes of others. Just a thought.

[Duhon]

I did say "somewhat like", Novus. And in any case, even if your (and my) ancestors did try and play nice later on, there was no mistaking that the initial conquest of the Philippines was cruel and bloody, and that the US government justified the slaughter by pointing out that my ancestors were savages for defending their hard-won freedom from Spain the way they did.

Well sure, the Philippine American War was horrible and unnecessary.

Still if the Chinese treated the Uyghur in the same way they would still be better off then they are now.

... hell no.

[Tetradimensional Overworld]

Ah, classic China. Being a capitalist economy doesn't make you better, TANKIE SCUM aka "People's Republic" of China and the "Communist" Party of China. Capitalistic reform is a tried and tested way to look better in front of the international community for TANKIE SCUMBAGS like them.

[Asherahan]

Fake.

[Novus America]

Well sure, the Philippine American War was horrible and unnecessary.

Still if the Chinese treated the Uyghur in the same way they would still be better off then they are now.

... hell no.

Better off, not that it would be good.
They would still not be suffering this treatment at least.

[Purgatio]

Unbelievable, so innocent Han families in Xinjiang should pack up and just leave because an organisation (Turkistan Islamic Party) exists that is actively attempting to create an Islamic State and purge all Hans from the region, and has been inflicting ethnically and religiously-motivated violence on Hans in the name of that ideological goal?

And the last time you accused me of pandering to bigots...how is that any different from what you are suggesting here? "Uyghur Islamic terrorists want to violently purge all Hans and non-Muslims from Xinjiang...so all Hans and non-Muslims should leave Xinjiang...." Double standard much?

So when did I imply, let alone explicitly support, the policies of Islamist Uyghurs? You do know there are other organized parties resisting the Chinese government's oppression of Xinjiang's natives, as well as immigrant and native-born Han, that the Turkestan Islamic Party is only one of many, yes?

Yes, you do explicitly express support for the policies of Islamist Uyghurs when you said, and I quote:

"Perhaps when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags" and leave the region...what did this sentence mean if not your support for the view that all ethnic Hans should leave Xinjiang immediately back to the 'natives' (ie ethnic Uyghurs), essentially you support the ethnic cleansing of the Xinjiang Autonomous Region in favour of the indigenous population - precisely what the Turkistan Islamic Party advocates for. If this isn't what you meant, what on Earth did you mean by "when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags"???

[Purgatio]

The people who disagree are able to disagree because they live in safe countries and safe regions of the world. They wouldn't feel the same way if they were a Han in Xinjiang fearing for their lives. I promise you if most of these people were placed in life-threatening situations many of their 'civil libertarian' ideals will likely melt away in an instant and they'll be demanding law, order and safety from the government immediately.

Probably, but I for one still wouldn't demand the imprisonment of one-eleventh of the population of the country I've occupied by force, let alone conflate being the least bit Uyghur or the least bit Muslim with fucking rebellion. That may be one way to peel this particular banana, but blame me for not buying the conqueror's rhetoric that extensive surveillance, stultifying censorship, and concentration camps are needed to pacify a populace that doesn't like the fact that you're there explicitly for the chauvinistic and exploitative reasons -- for, surprise surprise, Xinjiang is occupied land, same with Tibet.

Hell, it's even somewhat like with what my country experienced more than a century ago, when the Americans dropped by and crushed our independence movement, just so they can have their coaling station, colonial trophy, and patronizingly little brown bro all in one.

Occupation? By that logic, every region of the world is 'occupied'. Xinjiang is Chinese territory by virtue of the international legal principles of succession of States, historic title (Malaysia v. Indonesia), and uti possidetis (Burkina Faso v. Mali). The right to impose the law and governing rules upon territory falling within a State's national jurisdiction is a right of all countries and nations, to describe it as 'occupation' is simply inaccurate. Occupation is like when Iraq invaded Kuwait and unilaterally annexed it, that is military occupation. In the eyes of international law, what is happening in Xinjiang is a country passing and enforcing laws within its domestic jurisdiction. I can send you the links to the ICJ judgments from above if you want to explore further the notion of why occupation and national sovereignty are very obviously totally different things.

[Purgatio]

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where that would be true, but theoretically, yeah.

Fam, executing innocent people IS a crime, or at least it should be.

Only if you know they are innocent. But when you are waging a war where you don't know who your enemy is, desperate times call for desperate measures. Innocent Hans were being raped, butchered and bombed in Xinjiang and the rest of China, targeted and singled out for their race and their religion. In the absence of some magic mind-reading technology to discover which persons in Xinjiang are innocent and who are not, the Chinese State had no choice but to act to protect their people from the dangerous of radical Uyghur ethno-supremacist and Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.

[Purgatio]

I find it hard to imagine a scenario where that would be true, but theoretically, yeah.

So your okay will killing millions of innocents to stop just one crime? You do the see the issue with that right?

Its only an issue if you know for sure they are innocent or have some way to distinguish for sure the guilty and innocent. But the 'fog of war' prevents us from making that distinction. The choice is between letting your people die, or taking preventative and protective measures. I don't fault China for wanting fewer of their people to die, and neither should you.

[Andsed]

So your okay will killing millions of innocents to stop just one crime? You do the see the issue with that right?

Its only an issue if you know for sure they are innocent or have some way to distinguish for sure the guilty and innocent. But the 'fog of war' prevents us from making that distinction. The choice is between letting your people die, or taking preventative and protective measures. I don't fault China for wanting fewer of their people to die, and neither should you.

Sure. But I can and everyone should fault them for punishing innocents for no good reason. Punishing innocents is never okay or justifiable period.

[Purgatio]

Its only an issue if you know for sure they are innocent or have some way to distinguish for sure the guilty and innocent. But the 'fog of war' prevents us from making that distinction. The choice is between letting your people die, or taking preventative and protective measures. I don't fault China for wanting fewer of their people to die, and neither should you.

Sure. But I can and everyone should fault them for punishing innocents for no good reason. Punishing innocents is never okay or justifiable period.

The widespread racially and religiously motivated attacks on Hans in Xinjiang because of the colour of their skin and the deity they don't believe in is not good enough reason for you?

[Des-Bal]

How was this information collected? I thought "Struggle Sessions" were disowned as a relic of the Mao era when the reformers took over?

[Duhon]

So when did I imply, let alone explicitly support, the policies of Islamist Uyghurs? You do know there are other organized parties resisting the Chinese government's oppression of Xinjiang's natives, as well as immigrant and native-born Han, that the Turkestan Islamic Party is only one of many, yes?

Yes, you do explicitly express support for the policies of Islamist Uyghurs when you said, and I quote:

"Perhaps when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags" and leave the region...what did this sentence mean if not your support for the view that all ethnic Hans should leave Xinjiang immediately back to the 'natives' (ie ethnic Uyghurs), essentially you support the ethnic cleansing of the Xinjiang Autonomous Region in favour of the indigenous population - precisely what the Turkistan Islamic Party advocates for. If this isn't what you meant, what on Earth did you mean by "when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags"???

No, I bloody did not. I want the Chinese government to stop the persecution and attempted elimination of everything Uyghur, even leave Xinjiang if push comes to shove; that is not and has never been tantamount to allowing another group of revenge-obsessed extremists to take over and start slaughtering Han Chinese and their supporters within Xinjiang.

I am the farthest thing from allowing genocide, whether to protect the Han, take revenge against them, or whatever bloody else. What the fuck?

[Duhon]

How was this information collected? I thought "Struggle Sessions" were disowned as a relic of the Mao era when the reformers took over?

Leaked info and Xi's brilliant plan for the restive westerners, respectively.

[Novus America]

Yes, you do explicitly express support for the policies of Islamist Uyghurs when you said, and I quote:

"Perhaps when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags" and leave the region...what did this sentence mean if not your support for the view that all ethnic Hans should leave Xinjiang immediately back to the 'natives' (ie ethnic Uyghurs), essentially you support the ethnic cleansing of the Xinjiang Autonomous Region in favour of the indigenous population - precisely what the Turkistan Islamic Party advocates for. If this isn't what you meant, what on Earth did you mean by "when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags"???

No, I bloody did not. I want the Chinese government to stop the persecution and attempted elimination of everything Uyghur, even leave Xinjiang if push comes to shove; that is not and has never been tantamount to allowing another group of revenge-obsessed extremists to take over and start slaughtering Han Chinese and their supporters within Xinjiang.

I am the farthest thing from allowing genocide, whether to protect the Han, take revenge against them, or whatever bloody else. What the fuck?

He sees things in black vs white, us vs them, all or nothing zero sum battles.
So you are going to have a hard time reasoning with him.
Because he has reduced his arguments to false dichotomies

[Sada Difrium]

Its only an issue if you know for sure they are innocent or have some way to distinguish for sure the guilty and innocent. But the 'fog of war' prevents us from making that distinction. The choice is between letting your people die, or taking preventative and protective measures. I don't fault China for wanting fewer of their people to die, and neither should you.

You keep framing this in an all-or-nothing choice, but there are more options than just detention camps. I've stated here multiple times that religious freedom would solve this problem, and you have yet to address this.

Sure. But I can and everyone should fault them for punishing innocents for no good reason. Punishing innocents is never okay or justifiable period.

The widespread racially and religiously motivated attacks on Hans in Xinjiang because of the colour of their skin and the deity they don't believe in is not good enough reason for you?

No, it is not.

[Novus America]

How was this information collected? I thought "Struggle Sessions" were disowned as a relic of the Mao era when the reformers took over?

Xi is a Maoist at least politically and socially (not economically).
He is rolling back the reforms.

[Duhon]

Sure. But I can and everyone should fault them for punishing innocents for no good reason. Punishing innocents is never okay or justifiable period.

The widespread racially and religiously motivated attacks on Hans in Xinjiang because of the colour of their skin and the deity they don't believe in is not good enough reason for you?

It is not. Round up the perpetrators, then hold firm while meting out the sentences, not go full batshit and send a fucking million to concentration camps, less and less for the crime of resisting Chinese rule but for the crime of being Muslim, of being Uyghur.

Why should hundreds of thousands of innocents be "reeducated"? Tell me that.

[Purgatio]

Its only an issue if you know for sure they are innocent or have some way to distinguish for sure the guilty and innocent. But the 'fog of war' prevents us from making that distinction. The choice is between letting your people die, or taking preventative and protective measures. I don't fault China for wanting fewer of their people to die, and neither should you.

You keep framing this in an all-or-nothing choice, but there are more options than just detention camps. I've stated here multiple times that religious freedom would solve this problem, and you have yet to address this.

The widespread racially and religiously motivated attacks on Hans in Xinjiang because of the colour of their skin and the deity they don't believe in is not good enough reason for you?

No, it is not.

And I responded to your comment already. If lack of religious freedom were the root cause of the violence, then all religious groups that have suffered repression in the past (Christians, ancestral worship, folk religions) would be committing religious violence. That they are not proves your assumption is unwarranted and something else besides lack of religious freedoms is the reason for all the Uyghur violence.

[Purgatio]

Yes, you do explicitly express support for the policies of Islamist Uyghurs when you said, and I quote:

"Perhaps when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags" and leave the region...what did this sentence mean if not your support for the view that all ethnic Hans should leave Xinjiang immediately back to the 'natives' (ie ethnic Uyghurs), essentially you support the ethnic cleansing of the Xinjiang Autonomous Region in favour of the indigenous population - precisely what the Turkistan Islamic Party advocates for. If this isn't what you meant, what on Earth did you mean by "when the natives don't like what you've been doing to them, you take the hint, pack up your bags"???

No, I bloody did not. I want the Chinese government to stop the persecution and attempted elimination of everything Uyghur, even leave Xinjiang if push comes to shove; that is not and has never been tantamount to allowing another group of revenge-obsessed extremists to take over and start slaughtering Han Chinese and their supporters within Xinjiang.

I am the farthest thing from allowing genocide, whether to protect the Han, take revenge against them, or whatever bloody else. What the fuck?

How on Earth do you propose the Chinese government "leave" Xinjiang if the ethnic Han in Xinjiang don't leave too? You expect the ethnic Hans in Xinjiang to be treated with dignity and respect by an independent Xinjiang ruled by an ethnic Uyghur majority? Did you forget what happened to ethnic Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina when they seceded from SFRY? If you want the Chinese government to 'leave' Xinjiang, then you are supporting the revenge killing and ethnic cleansing of the region against ethnic Han, you can't have it both ways. One will be the inevitable consequence of the other.

[Crisconsin]

A lot of this is quite beautiful though I’m not sure what the bit about camping equipment is, maybe they’re worried about people going into the wildnerness to form rebel camps.

Enlighten me, what part of this list is beautiful?

[Purgatio]

The widespread racially and religiously motivated attacks on Hans in Xinjiang because of the colour of their skin and the deity they don't believe in is not good enough reason for you?

It is not. Round up the perpetrators, then hold firm while meting out the sentences, not go full batshit and send a fucking million to concentration camps, less and less for the crime of resisting Chinese rule but for the crime of being Muslim, of being Uyghur.

Why should hundreds of thousands of innocents be "reeducated"? Tell me that.

The fight against terrorism is not a regular war where the enemy has identified himself through uniforms, a regularised military organisation and what not. Terrorists are hidden, they blend into the regular civilian population. So 'just punish the perpetrators' isn't a viable solution at all.

[Sada Difrium]

And I responded to your comment already. If lack of religious freedom were the root cause of the violence, then all religious groups that have suffered repression in the past (Christians, ancestral worship, folk religions) would be committing religious violence. That they are not proves your assumption is unwarranted and something else besides lack of religious freedoms is the reason for all the Uyghur violence.

It's not the root cause of the violence, the general oppression of the Uyghurs is. Religious freedom is the first step towards improving relations with the people in Xinjiang.

[Cybus1]

It is not. Round up the perpetrators, then hold firm while meting out the sentences, not go full batshit and send a fucking million to concentration camps, less and less for the crime of resisting Chinese rule but for the crime of being Muslim, of being Uyghur.

Why should hundreds of thousands of innocents be "reeducated"? Tell me that.

The fight against terrorism is not a regular war where the enemy has identified himself through uniforms, a regularised military organisation and what not. Terrorists are hidden, they blend into the regular civilian population. So 'just punish the perpetrators' isn't a viable solution at all.

Punishing those who may or may not support said terrorists is hardly a good idea either, since I imagine that would just push them toward supporting those groups because the government put them in camps and treats practicing their religion (having a beard, wearing a hijab, other things from the list) as extremist behavior.

[Purgatio]

No, I bloody did not. I want the Chinese government to stop the persecution and attempted elimination of everything Uyghur, even leave Xinjiang if push comes to shove; that is not and has never been tantamount to allowing another group of revenge-obsessed extremists to take over and start slaughtering Han Chinese and their supporters within Xinjiang.

I am the farthest thing from allowing genocide, whether to protect the Han, take revenge against them, or whatever bloody else. What the fuck?

He sees things in black vs white, us vs them, all or nothing zero sum battles.
So you are going to have a hard time reasoning with him.
Because he has reduced his arguments to false dichotomies

Because its how the world works, the Uyghurs have proven themselves tribalistic, showing sustained favourable treatment for their own kind over and above anyone non-Uyghur, especially the Han who are entering the region. Uyghur propaganda promotes an 'us vs. them' idea, seeing fellow Uyghurs as 'natives' and every non-Uyghur and Han individual as an aggressive 'colonist' or 'invader'. I simply recognise human tribalistic thinking for what it is.