China's list of 48 extremist tendencies

[Novus America]

Well, I've yet to hear anyone in this thread criticising Chinese counter-terrorism policies suggest alternative ways of countering the threat of anti-Han racial and religious attacks in Xinjiang. You think the Chinese government didn't try normal methods of counter-terrorism before? Of course they did, but the attacks continued and persisted, and so counter-terrorism policies had to intensify. The government's hands were tied, pure and simple.

Umm China is not the only country to suffer terror attacks.
The US never went to China’s extreme even after 9-11.

China you know could actually charge real criminals in a court, instead of throwing huge numbers who may or may not be criminals in camps just because they fit a certain profile.

[Purgatio]

Well, I've yet to hear anyone in this thread criticising Chinese counter-terrorism policies suggest alternative ways of countering the threat of anti-Han racial and religious attacks in Xinjiang. You think the Chinese government didn't try normal methods of counter-terrorism before? Of course they did, but the attacks continued and persisted, and so counter-terrorism policies had to intensify. The government's hands were tied, pure and simple.

Umm China is not the only country to suffer terror attacks.
The US never went to China’s extreme even after 9-11.

China you know could actually charge real criminals in a court, instead of throwing huge numbers who may or may not be criminals in camps just because they fit a certain profile.

Is there a portion of the US where it is commonplace for members of a specific ethnic community to target and inflict violence on members of the racial majority simply because of the colour of the skin and the god they do not worship? No, its a false analogy.

[Sada Difrium]

Well, I've yet to hear anyone in this thread criticising Chinese counter-terrorism policies suggest alternative ways of countering the threat of anti-Han racial and religious attacks in Xinjiang.

Let's start with granting religious freedom. Christianity and Islam have both been suppressed by the Chinese government.

You think the Chinese government didn't try normal methods of counter-terrorism before? Of course they did, but the attacks continued and persisted, and so counter-terrorism policies had to intensify. The government's hands were tied, pure and simple.

Is there a portion of the US where it is commonplace for members of a specific ethnic community to target and inflict violence on members of the racial majority simply because of the colour of the skin and the god they do not worship? No, its a false analogy.

Mass incarceration of a specific ethnicity or religious group is still not acceptable, even if you "intensified" towards it, and no matter what your stated purpose is.

[Purgatio]

It's in large part related to the Uyghur people. Up to one million Uyghur people may have been locked up simply for not being culturally/ethnically Han Chinese. In other words, this list is little more than a way for the Chinese government to keep a tight rein on Xinjiang region, home to the Uyghur people.

It's despicable, and I'm appalled that governments worldwide have been so quiet on the atrocities committed against the Uyghur people.

Unfortunately China’s economic rise has been a serious, possibly fatal blow for human rights and democracy.

China can an does use its economic power to keep governments, universities and companies from criticizing it.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are silent of this because their love of money overrides and claim they have to be supporting Muslims.

The US refuses to sanction China because our big corporations and many politicians are in China’s pocket.

Western countries and the US used to be able to kick and push China around, force China to do whatever they wanted because of their economic clout. Those days are long over. What is it about the principles of national sovereignty, jurisdiction and the sovereign equality of States under the UN Charter that you seem to dislike so much? Is it that the US doesn't have the power to arbitrarily dominate or subordinate China to its will anymore?

[Purgatio]

Well, I've yet to hear anyone in this thread criticising Chinese counter-terrorism policies suggest alternative ways of countering the threat of anti-Han racial and religious attacks in Xinjiang.

Let's start with granting religious freedom. Christianity and Islam have both been suppressed by the Chinese government.

You think the Chinese government didn't try normal methods of counter-terrorism before? Of course they did, but the attacks continued and persisted, and so counter-terrorism policies had to intensify. The government's hands were tied, pure and simple.

Mass incarceration of a specific group is still not acceptable, even if you "intensified" towards it.

Do you see mass attacks, bombings and rapes by Christians on non-Christians in China? No, you don't. So if they can do it why can't certain communities and groups within Xinjiang?

This isn't mass incarceration of a specific group, not all Uyghurs are in re-education facilities, simply those of an alarmingly-high risk of religious extremism and beliefs in ethnic superiority/sectarianism.

[Novus America]

Unfortunately China’s economic rise has been a serious, possibly fatal blow for human rights and democracy.

China can an does use its economic power to keep governments, universities and companies from criticizing it.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are silent of this because their love of money overrides and claim they have to be supporting Muslims.

The US refuses to sanction China because our big corporations and many politicians are in China’s pocket.

Western countries and the US used to be able to kick and push China around, force China to do whatever they wanted because of their economic clout. Those days are long over. What is it about the principles of national sovereignty, jurisdiction and the sovereign equality of States under the UN Charter that you seem to dislike so much? Is it that the US doesn't have the power to arbitrarily dominate or subordinate China to its will anymore?

The UN Charter also requires members respect human rights you know.
Despite being obviously not enforced.

National sovereignty does not allow you to do anything you want without repercussions.

National sovereignty also gives us the right to trade with who we want, and to consequently sanction whoever we want. To throw the Chinese lobbyists out of our countries.

So how about we do that? I am not saying we should bomb China, just exercise our national sovereignty.

[Novus America]

Umm China is not the only country to suffer terror attacks.
The US never went to China’s extreme even after 9-11.

China you know could actually charge real criminals in a court, instead of throwing huge numbers who may or may not be criminals in camps just because they fit a certain profile.

Is there a portion of the US where it is commonplace for members of a specific ethnic community to target and inflict violence on members of the racial majority simply because of the colour of the skin and the god they do not worship? No, its a false analogy.

It is not a false analogy. We have had Islamic terror attacks too. Which have killed far more people. How many have died in. China because of these attacks?
Where do you have proof so many Chinese Muslims are violent fanatics deserving of concentration camps?
You keep claiming this, but offer no evidence.

[Sada Difrium]

Do you see mass attacks, bombings and rapes by Christians on non-Christians in China? No, you don't. So if they can do it why can't certain communities and groups within Xinjiang?

You asked me to give a solution to the problem, and I have. You haven't actually addressed why this solution would not work or be beneficial for either side.

This isn't mass incarceration of a specific group, not all Uyghurs are in re-education facilities, simply those of an alarmingly-high risk of religious extremism and beliefs in ethnic superiority/sectarianism.

"alarmingly-high risk" is an interesting term here. As the OP's list shows, many of these risky behaviors are things you would reasonably expect a Muslim to follow. They're setting the threshold for alarm very low, and then showing how hundreds of thousands are suddenly "alarmingly-high risk".

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

People who drink water or sprite are more likely to be extremists

[Novus America]

People who drink water or sprite are more likely to be extremists

All terrorists drink water. Ergo everyone who drinks water is a potential terrorist.

Wait, I bet YOU drink water!
The Ministry of State Security has been notified.

[Risottia]

Neither is Russia.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2015/09/ ... sts-a49787

It is fair to say that in both countries there's a sizeable amount of Islamophobes, but that doesn't make either country "anti-Muslim to their core". I would also suspect it's more or less the same with PR China, although their attitude towards Islam is quite skewed by the link the PRC authorities tend to make between Islam and East-Turkestan violent separatism.

Russia is not in the top three by population.

Sorry, I could not hear reason over the noise of my brain farting. I thought of "large", and, well... *derp*

[Sada Difrium]

People who drink water or sprite are more likely to be extremists

All terrorists drink water. Ergo everyone who drinks water is a potential terrorist.

Wait, I bet YOU drink water!
The Ministry of State Security has been notified.

You know who else has drank water before? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Pinochet! We're dealing with some real advanced levels of evil here.

[Slotted Floppies]

For those who can't be arsed, here's the bizarro list (and it is bizarre, probably even from the standpoint of an average subject of Emperor Poohbah and His Middle Kingdom):

Owning a tent
Telling others not to swear
Speaking with someone who has travelled abroad
Owning welding equipment
Telling others not to sin
Owning extra food
Eating breakfast before the sun comes up
Merely knowing someone who has travelled abroad
Owning a compass
Arguing with an official
Publicly stating that China is inferior to some other country
Owning multiple knives
Sending a petition that complains about local officials
Having too many children
Abstaining from alcohol
Not allowing officials to sleep in your bed, eat your food, and live in your house
Having a VPN
Abstaining from cigarettes
Not having your government ID on your person
Having WhatsApp
Wailing, publicly grieving, or otherwise acting sad when your parents die
Not letting officials take your DNA
Watching a video filmed abroad
Wearing a scarf in the presence of the Chinese flag
Wearing a hijab (if you are under 45)
Going to a mosque
Praying
Fasting
Listening to a religious lecture
Not letting officials scan your irises
Not letting officials download everything you have on your phone
Not making voice recordings to give to officials
Speaking your native language in school
Speaking your native language in government work groups
Speaking with someone abroad (via Skype, WeChat, etc.)
Wearing a shirt with Arabic lettered writing on it
Having a full beard
Wearing any clothes with religious iconography
Not attending mandatory propaganda classes
Not attending mandatory flag-raising ceremonies
Not attending public struggle sessions (the public humiliation of political rivals)
Refusing to denounce your family members or yourself in these public struggle sessions
Trying to kill yourself when detained by the police
Trying to kill yourself when in the education camps
Performing a traditional funeral
Inviting multiple families to your house without registering with the police department
Being related to anyone who has done any of the above

It would be nice if the OP copypastes the above list while adding way more meat to his post.

Yeah are they at peak communism yet?

[Purgatio]

Western countries and the US used to be able to kick and push China around, force China to do whatever they wanted because of their economic clout. Those days are long over. What is it about the principles of national sovereignty, jurisdiction and the sovereign equality of States under the UN Charter that you seem to dislike so much? Is it that the US doesn't have the power to arbitrarily dominate or subordinate China to its will anymore?

The UN Charter also requires members respect human rights you know.
Despite being obviously not enforced.

National sovereignty does not allow you to do anything you want without repercussions.

National sovereignty also gives us the right to trade with who we want, and to consequently sanction whoever we want. To throw the Chinese lobbyists out of our countries.

So how about we do that? I am not saying we should bomb China, just exercise our national sovereignty.

Article 2(1) of the UN Charter establishes the principle of the "sovereign equality of States". This means that in the eyes of international law, no State is legally-superior or inferior to the other, no State can be made the subordinate, deputy or servant of another, no State can be subject to the unilateral will, commands and dictates of another. What you are suggesting is that the US has the right to issue binding commands and orders to the Chinese State, a notion repugnant and incompatible to the principle of the sovereign equality of States.

See Paragraph 57 of the ICJ judgment Jurisdictional Immunities of the State, Germany v. Italy, which held as follows:

"The Court considers that the rule of State immunity occupies an important place in international law and international relations. It derives from the principle of sovereign equality of States, which, as Article 2, paragraph 1, of the Charter of the United Nations makes clear, is one of the fundamental principles of the international legal order. This principle has to be viewed together with the principle that each State possesses sovereignty over its own territory and that there flows from that sovereignty the jurisdiction of the State over events and persons within that territory. Exceptions to the immunity of the State represent a departure from the principle of sovereign equality."

Your argument that the principle of sovereignty only protects a State from being bombed is legally-incorrect, as a matter of public international law.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Purgatio please explain how any of those points China has are a sign of terrorism

[Purgatio]

Is there a portion of the US where it is commonplace for members of a specific ethnic community to target and inflict violence on members of the racial majority simply because of the colour of the skin and the god they do not worship? No, its a false analogy.

It is not a false analogy. We have had Islamic terror attacks too. Which have killed far more people. How many have died in. China because of these attacks?
Where do you have proof so many Chinese Muslims are violent fanatics deserving of concentration camps?
You keep claiming this, but offer no evidence.

You want evidence of Uyghur attacks on Hans? How about this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_bus_bombings
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Kashgar_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaoguan_incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Aksu_bombing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Hotan_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_Airlines_Flight_7554
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Kashgar_attacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pishan_hostage_crisis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Yecheng_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2013_Bachu_unrest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_2013_Shanshan_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_China%E2%80%93Vietnam_border_shootout
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Juma_Tayir

How's that for a quick, abbreviated list? Proof enough for you?

[Purgatio]

Do you see mass attacks, bombings and rapes by Christians on non-Christians in China? No, you don't. So if they can do it why can't certain communities and groups within Xinjiang?

You asked me to give a solution to the problem, and I have. You haven't actually addressed why this solution would not work or be beneficial for either side.

This isn't mass incarceration of a specific group, not all Uyghurs are in re-education facilities, simply those of an alarmingly-high risk of religious extremism and beliefs in ethnic superiority/sectarianism.

"alarmingly-high risk" is an interesting term here. As the OP's list shows, many of these risky behaviors are things you would reasonably expect a Muslim to follow. They're setting the threshold for alarm very low, and then showing how hundreds of thousands are suddenly "alarmingly-high risk".

Your solution was "counter-terrorism short of mass detention". I already told you China has been doing that for years and yet the Uyghur attacks on Hans kept on coming and coming. As for your claim that the threshold is so low that any Uyghur Muslim would qualify, this is clearly false since not all Uyghurs are in re-education facilities. Only some.

[Sada Difrium]

Your solution was "counter-terrorism short of mass detention". I already told you China has been doing that for years and yet the Uyghur attacks on Hans kept on coming and coming. As for your claim that the threshold is so low that any Uyghur Muslim would qualify, this is clearly false since not all Uyghurs are in re-education facilities. Only some.

Let's start with granting religious freedom. Christianity and Islam have both been suppressed by the Chinese government.

[Purgatio]

Your solution was "counter-terrorism short of mass detention". I already told you China has been doing that for years and yet the Uyghur attacks on Hans kept on coming and coming. As for your claim that the threshold is so low that any Uyghur Muslim would qualify, this is clearly false since not all Uyghurs are in re-education facilities. Only some.

Let's start with granting religious freedom. Christianity and Islam have both been suppressed by the Chinese government.

The recent crackdown on Islamic practices was in response to endless waves of Uyghur terrorism and ethno-supremacist violence. They had religious freedom before that. Didn’t stop them from forming groups like the Turkistan Islamic Party and raping and butchering Hans in the name of their religipn and ethno-supremacist ideals.

[Sada Difrium]

The recent crackdown on Islamic practices was in response to endless waves of Uyghur terrorism and ethno-supremacist violence. They had religious freedom before that. Didn’t stop them from forming groups like the Turkistan Islamic Party and raping and butchering Hans in the name of their religipn and ethno-supremacist ideals.

The last time they may have had religious freedom was the warlord period. Communist China has attempted to suppress religion for decades since they've taken power.

[Purgatio]

The recent crackdown on Islamic practices was in response to endless waves of Uyghur terrorism and ethno-supremacist violence. They had religious freedom before that. Didn’t stop them from forming groups like the Turkistan Islamic Party and raping and butchering Hans in the name of their religipn and ethno-supremacist ideals.

The last time they may have had religious freedom was the warlord period. Communist China has attempted to suppress religion for decades since they've taken power.

Suppress all religious freedom? Hmm, then its very funny that we haven't seen the same level of violence from Christian terrorist groups and all those people who practice ancestral folk worship (which came under heavy attack during the Cultural Revolution). So clearly lack of religious freedom isn't the cause of the political and sectarian violence in Xinjiang.

[Badb Catha]

For those who can't be arsed, here's the bizarro list (and it is bizarre, probably even from the standpoint of an average subject of Emperor Poohbah and His Middle Kingdom):

Owning a tent
Telling others not to swear
Speaking with someone who has travelled abroad
Owning welding equipment
Telling others not to sin
Owning extra food
Eating breakfast before the sun comes up
Merely knowing someone who has travelled abroad
Owning a compass
Arguing with an official
Publicly stating that China is inferior to some other country
Owning multiple knives
Sending a petition that complains about local officials
Having too many children
Abstaining from alcohol
Not allowing officials to sleep in your bed, eat your food, and live in your house
Having a VPN
Abstaining from cigarettes
Not having your government ID on your person
Having WhatsApp
Wailing, publicly grieving, or otherwise acting sad when your parents die
Not letting officials take your DNA
Watching a video filmed abroad
Wearing a scarf in the presence of the Chinese flag
Wearing a hijab (if you are under 45)
Going to a mosque
Praying
Fasting
Listening to a religious lecture
Not letting officials scan your irises
Not letting officials download everything you have on your phone
Not making voice recordings to give to officials
Speaking your native language in school
Speaking your native language in government work groups
Speaking with someone abroad (via Skype, WeChat, etc.)
Wearing a shirt with Arabic lettered writing on it
Having a full beard
Wearing any clothes with religious iconography
Not attending mandatory propaganda classes
Not attending mandatory flag-raising ceremonies
Not attending public struggle sessions (the public humiliation of political rivals)
Refusing to denounce your family members or yourself in these public struggle sessions
Trying to kill yourself when detained by the police
Trying to kill yourself when in the education camps
Performing a traditional funeral
Inviting multiple families to your house without registering with the police department
Being related to anyone who has done any of the above

It would be nice if the OP copypastes the above list while adding way more meat to his post.

It is not bizarre. The intention of this list is obvious for anyone who has read George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four; it is reminiscent of the scene in which the protagonist is told that his neighbor's son reported his father to the Thought Police. That is the intention here: to sow suspicion and distrust in everyone to prevent resistance from forming. The Communist Party of China is aware that it's dystopian system of governance will eventually sow the seeds for rebellion and it is hoping to negate the risk as much as possible. North Korea does the exact same thing.

[Purgatio]

For those who can't be arsed, here's the bizarro list (and it is bizarre, probably even from the standpoint of an average subject of Emperor Poohbah and His Middle Kingdom):



It would be nice if the OP copypastes the above list while adding way more meat to his post.

It is not bizarre. The intention of this list is obvious for anyone who has read George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four; it is reminiscent of the scene in which the protagonist is told that his neighbor's son reported his father to the Thought Police. That is the intention here: to sow suspicion and distrust in everyone to prevent resistance from forming. The Communist Party of China is aware that it's dystopian system of governance will eventually sow the seeds for rebellion and it is hoping to negate the risk as much as possible. North Korea does the exact same thing.

The intention of the list is to focus more law enforcement attention on a specific community whose parochial, religiously narrow-minded and ethno-supremacist ideals have radicalised their young men to commit some of the worst atrocities in modern human history - the targeted rapes and bombings and killings of people in Xinjiang for no other reason than their race (Han) and their religion (non-Muslim). There's a reason this same list isn't being applied outside Xinjiang to the rest of the Chinese population, which would be the case if your conspiratorial claim that the Chinese government is trying to 'sow distrust amongst the everyday Chinese population' were true.

Face it, this is nothing more than prudent counter-terrorist policies, in respond to a series of terrible Uyghur atrocities and racially and religious-motivated violence.

[Novus America]

The last time they may have had religious freedom was the warlord period. Communist China has attempted to suppress religion for decades since they've taken power.

Suppress all religious freedom? Hmm, then its very funny that we haven't seen the same level of violence from Christian terrorist groups and all those people who practice ancestral folk worship (which came under heavy attack during the Cultural Revolution). So clearly lack of religious freedom isn't the cause of the political and sectarian violence in Xinjiang.

But then in turn, the suppression is not justified on terrorism grounds.
Why are Christians subject to religious restrictions then?

[Bear Stearns]

Suppress all religious freedom? Hmm, then its very funny that we haven't seen the same level of violence from Christian terrorist groups and all those people who practice ancestral folk worship (which came under heavy attack during the Cultural Revolution). So clearly lack of religious freedom isn't the cause of the political and sectarian violence in Xinjiang.

But then in turn, the suppression is not justified on terrorism grounds.
Why are Christians subject to religious restrictions then?

Because it's a communist one-party state that views any social institution not directly controlled by it as a threat?