NATION

PASSWORD

Only 10% Don't Pay Federal Taxes, Stop Complaining

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Rolamec
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6860
Founded: Dec 15, 2006
Ex-Nation

Only 10% Don't Pay Federal Taxes, Stop Complaining

Postby Rolamec » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:26 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/busin ... f=business

But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too.

Even if the discussion is restricted to federal taxes (for which the statistics are better), a vast majority of households end up paying federal taxes. Congressional Budget Office data suggests that, at most, about 10 percent of all households pay no net federal taxes. The number 10 is obviously a lot smaller than 47.


So stop bitching about how 47% of American's don't pay taxes, perhaps income taxes, but there are other federal taxes, not to mention state and local taxes as well.

In addition, the argument that the wealthy are paying for the entire burden is ridiculous:

There is no question that the wealthy pay a higher overall tax rate than any other group. That is an American tradition. But there is also no question that their tax rates have fallen more than any other group’s over the last three decades. The only reason they are paying more taxes than in the past is that their pretax incomes have risen so rapidly — which hardly seems a great rationale for a further tax cut.


While they are paying for a good chunk of it, their income has grown the fastest, and their tax rates have dropped significantly.
Last edited by Katganistan on Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Forum Titles are held to a higher standard than posts.
Rolamec of New Earth
A Proud and Progressive Republican.
"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid." -John Wayne

Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

User avatar
OMGeverynameistaken
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12437
Founded: Jun 24, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby OMGeverynameistaken » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:33 am

How much of that 10% is in the top 10% of highest income households, I wonder.
I AM DISAPPOINTED

User avatar
Khislav
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 48
Founded: Nov 06, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Khislav » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:35 am

And increasing the taxes of the people who provide jobs and services is intelligent how?
President Valinkovo Somonov
Head of State, Federation of Khislav

User avatar
Adecia
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Adecia » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:53 am

Because if you tax them they will only higher the most productive workers and increase the productivity in order to cover their loss. That means better quality and more efficient products, i think its a great idea on paper, in practice, though, it could be disasterous.

User avatar
Maurepas
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36403
Founded: Apr 17, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Maurepas » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:54 am

OMGeverynameistaken wrote:How much of that 10% is in the top 10% of highest income households, I wonder.

My first thought as well...

User avatar
Ordo Mallus
Diplomat
 
Posts: 641
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ordo Mallus » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:59 am

Adecia wrote:Because if you tax them they will only higher the most productive workers and increase the productivity in order to cover their loss. That means better quality and more efficient products, i think its a great idea on paper, in practice, though, it could be disasterous.


it will be a loss of produciton, the more you tax a business the less output they will have, the more expencive things will be, less jobs will be avalible, an overall loss.
A small mind is easily filled with faith.

“It is only the dead who have seen the end of war” Plato

User avatar
Treznor
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7343
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Treznor » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:11 am

Khislav wrote:And increasing the taxes of the people who provide jobs and services is intelligent how?

I'll give you two reasons and leave it at that.

1. They haven't been providing jobs and services. They've been playing money games to increase their wealth which did nothing to enhance our productivity.

2. Nothing in history suggests that increasing the tax burden will cause the owners of industry to shut down and move away. Our years of greatest prosperity were when our taxes were highest. If they want to stay wealthy then they're going to have to work at it, just like everyone else.

User avatar
Farnhamia
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 111674
Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:19 am

Treznor wrote:
Khislav wrote:And increasing the taxes of the people who provide jobs and services is intelligent how?

I'll give you two reasons and leave it at that.

1. They haven't been providing jobs and services. They've been playing money games to increase their wealth which did nothing to enhance our productivity.

2. Nothing in history suggests that increasing the tax burden will cause the owners of industry to shut down and move away. Our years of greatest prosperity were when our taxes were highest. If they want to stay wealthy then they're going to have to work at it, just like everyone else.

Work?!?
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

User avatar
Vault 10
Minister
 
Posts: 2471
Founded: Sep 15, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Vault 10 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:23 am

I want in.

How do I join?
There is a line most people say they will never cross. It is usually something they have done long ago when they thought no one was watching.




User avatar
Treznor
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7343
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Treznor » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:23 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Treznor wrote:
Khislav wrote:And increasing the taxes of the people who provide jobs and services is intelligent how?

I'll give you two reasons and leave it at that.

1. They haven't been providing jobs and services. They've been playing money games to increase their wealth which did nothing to enhance our productivity.

2. Nothing in history suggests that increasing the tax burden will cause the owners of industry to shut down and move away. Our years of greatest prosperity were when our taxes were highest. If they want to stay wealthy then they're going to have to work at it, just like everyone else.

Work?!?

As much as they ever do. Being burdened with 28% taxes on your twelve million dollars per year ain't easy, y'know! Won't anyone think of the plight of the rich?

User avatar
Free Soviets
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11256
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Free Soviets » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:41 am

even if we let the blatantly propagandistic shift from 'federal income taxes' to 'taxes-full-stop' go this time, the talking point still is wrong. effectively everybody that earns anything at all greater than the standard deduction winds up paying income taxes. it's just that we also have a number of benefits programs that we happen to run through the same forms - because it is cheaper and easier to do it that way - that some people are eligible for. like the earned income tax credit; advocated by milton 'small government' friedman, signed into law by richard nixon (USia's very own conservative supervillian), and massively expanded by ronnie fucking raygun.

this argument is effectively like claiming that coupons mean you pay no sales tax.

User avatar
Zeppy
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10112
Founded: Oct 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Zeppy » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:45 am

God damn Illegals, not paying them taxes.
It's America! Like Biden said "pay you fucking taxes or you ain't no loyal Ameikan!" [paraphrase and out of context]

User avatar
Treznor
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7343
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Treznor » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:48 am

Zeppy wrote:God damn Illegals, not paying them taxes.
It's America! Like Biden said "pay you fucking taxes or you ain't no loyal Ameikan!" [paraphrase and out of context]

Agreed, except they do. Whenever they buy something they're paying whatever taxes is levied on it. If they use fake Social Security numbers to gain employment, they're still paying taxes. The only time they don't pay taxes is if they're being paid in cash for their labor from a disreputable employer.
Last edited by Treznor on Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ
Minister
 
Posts: 3272
Founded: Apr 04, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:05 pm

Increasing the corporate income tax rate creates an incentive to make long-term investments because corporations are only taxed for their Net Income. Every time there is an expense, their tax bill is reduced by a larger proportion than if the tax rate were lower.
Image

The other thing you should understand is that in normal times, the deficit crowds out private investment. So you're not actually gaining anything by paying for a tax cut with a deficit.
You-Gi-Owe wrote:I hate all "spin doctoring". I don't mind honest disagreement and it's possible that people are expressing honest opinions, but spin doctoring is so pervasive, I gotta ask if I suspect it.

User avatar
Rolamec
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6860
Founded: Dec 15, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Rolamec » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:49 pm

To clarify, I posted this because people were bitching at me how almost half of Americans don't pay taxes, and the rich are the ones who are doing most of it anyway (arguing against raising their rates).

The fact that Exxon Mobil gets away with paying zilch is just so very sad, imo.
Rolamec of New Earth
A Proud and Progressive Republican.
"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid." -John Wayne

Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

User avatar
Helertia
Minister
 
Posts: 3270
Founded: Nov 28, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Helertia » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:59 pm

Rolamec wrote:To clarify, I posted this because people were bitching at me how almost half of Americans don't pay taxes, and the rich are the ones who are doing most of it anyway (arguing against raising their rates).

The fact that Exxon Mobil gets away with paying zilch is just so very sad, imo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHYU3u0pPOM

I'm more pissed off by rich people who claim that they shoulder most of the tax burden. "The top 1% pays 90% of the tax!" cry they, outraged. "Waaaahh!!!"

Actually, I think you'll find that 90% of the top 1% have more bank accounts than Ferarri's and live in tax havens. And even when you do pay tax you still end up with obscene profits


/end unhelpful rant
Last edited by Helertia on Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do hypocrites hate hypocrisy?

User avatar
Brandenburg-Altmark
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5813
Founded: Nov 25, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Brandenburg-Altmark » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:17 pm

Khislav wrote:And increasing the taxes of the people who provide jobs and services is intelligent how?


How do you figure they will lose money by paying a higher percentage? It is far more unprofitable to shut down a factory because of a 10% tax hike than it is to pay 10% more on your earnings. Contrary to popular myth, high tax rates don't make the wealthy run for the hills. As has been stated, they jump through so many loopholes and play around with their money in ways that net them massive increases in wealth regardless of the tax rate. Yes, I know that counselor Reagan at GOP camp told you differently, but now it's time to use your head.
Economic Left/Right: -7.50 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.21
TOKYONI UNJUSTLY DELETED 19/06/2011 - SAY NO TO MOD IMPERIALISM
Tanker til Norge.
Free isam wrote:
United Dependencies wrote:Where's inda? Or Russa for that matter?

idot inda is asias gron and russa is its hat ok :palm:

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Caninope » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:16 pm

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:Increasing the corporate income tax rate creates an incentive to make long-term investments because corporations are only taxed for their Net Income. Every time there is an expense, their tax bill is reduced by a larger proportion than if the tax rate were lower.
Image

The other thing you should understand is that in normal times, the deficit crowds out private investment. So you're not actually gaining anything by paying for a tax cut with a deficit.


So it would be good to cut the government too.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
Muravyets
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12755
Founded: Aug 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:20 pm

Khislav wrote:And increasing the taxes of the people who provide jobs and services is intelligent how?

I don't know about you -- maybe you get the special Obama Hates Khislav tax -- but the personal exemption on my 2010 tax return, which I filled out and mailed in this very morning (what? it wasn't due until now) was a good amount better than it was last year. Plus the calculation of standard deductions was more favorable to me. I didn't even bother to try for all the credits I possibly could have gotten, and my taxes are obviously lower than they were last year.
Kick back at Cafe Muravyets
And check out my other RP, too. (Don't take others' word for it -- see for yourself. ;) )
I agree with Muravyets because she scares me. -- Verdigroth
However, I am still not the topic of this thread.

User avatar
MrLibertarianism
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 12
Founded: Apr 15, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby MrLibertarianism » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:23 pm

we should all stop paying taxes, all we do is feed the troll we call the Federal Government.

User avatar
Muravyets
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12755
Founded: Aug 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:24 pm

Free Soviets wrote:even if we let the blatantly propagandistic shift from 'federal income taxes' to 'taxes-full-stop' go this time, the talking point still is wrong. effectively everybody that earns anything at all greater than the standard deduction winds up paying income taxes. it's just that we also have a number of benefits programs that we happen to run through the same forms - because it is cheaper and easier to do it that way - that some people are eligible for. like the earned income tax credit; advocated by milton 'small government' friedman, signed into law by richard nixon (USia's very own conservative supervillian), and massively expanded by ronnie fucking raygun.

this argument is effectively like claiming that coupons mean you pay no sales tax.

Exactly. And when we do look at the extreme upper percentile of income, at which there actually can be a difference in taxation, I'd have to say that making people who paid less tax pay similarly to other people is not the same as increasing taxes. That's why I dismiss all those arguments about how horrible for the nation it is to make the rich pay taxes.
Kick back at Cafe Muravyets
And check out my other RP, too. (Don't take others' word for it -- see for yourself. ;) )
I agree with Muravyets because she scares me. -- Verdigroth
However, I am still not the topic of this thread.

User avatar
Yenke-Bin
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1490
Founded: Jun 21, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Yenke-Bin » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:25 pm

And increasing the taxes of the people who provide jobs and services is intelligent how?


You do realize most corporations in the US don't pay taxes, right? Where the hell are all those extra jobs they are making us?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1249465620080812

That Link is like 2 years old, but the trend is still the same. Other tax related items:

http://crooksandliars.com/node/36355 Don't give us that same old BS about taxes being too high, and they are stopping corporations from creating jobs, or what ever.
Proud Christian and Democratic Socialist.
zilam428. Add me. Let's play games together!

User avatar
Muravyets
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12755
Founded: Aug 18, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby Muravyets » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:27 pm

MrLibertarianism wrote:we should all stop paying taxes, all we do is feed the troll we call the Federal Government.

No, thanks, I'd rather not have to pave the highways myself.

Though, watching the news tonight about the tea party rally in DC today, I did find myself wondering just how much Michelle Bachman's and Steve King's paychecks come to.
Last edited by Muravyets on Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kick back at Cafe Muravyets
And check out my other RP, too. (Don't take others' word for it -- see for yourself. ;) )
I agree with Muravyets because she scares me. -- Verdigroth
However, I am still not the topic of this thread.

User avatar
Yenke-Bin
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1490
Founded: Jun 21, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Yenke-Bin » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:27 pm

MrLibertarianism wrote:we should all stop paying taxes, all we do is feed the troll we call the Federal Government.


And I'll rob your place first. WHERE'S YOUR POLICE PROTECTION NOW???!!!?111!
Proud Christian and Democratic Socialist.
zilam428. Add me. Let's play games together!

User avatar
Yenke-Bin
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1490
Founded: Jun 21, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Yenke-Bin » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:28 pm

Muravyets wrote:
MrLibertarianism wrote:we should all stop paying taxes, all we do is feed the troll we call the Federal Government.

No, thanks, I'd rather not have to pave the highways myself.

Though, watching the news tonight about the tea party rally in DC today, I did find myself wondering just how much Michelle Bachman's and Steve King's paychecks come to.



I just thought of a way to cut government spending. ;)
Proud Christian and Democratic Socialist.
zilam428. Add me. Let's play games together!

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Arval Va, Juansonia, Kubra, Pizza Friday Forever91, Pridelantic people, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads