NationStates

Soviet Tankistan wrote:

Dumb Ideologies wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:Oh, mb. I meant Hoxhaist.

>treating Stalinism and Hoxhaism as insults.

Anyway, I’ve recognized transgenders in my NS country as of today.

No one cares.

Geez, why do these things always happen when I'm asleep?

Anyways, if this does split off into a new thread, does that mean we'll lose like several pages' worth of posts from here?

Iciaros wrote:Geez, why do these things always happen when I'm asleep?

Anyways, if this does split off into a new thread, does that mean we'll lose like several pages' worth of posts from here?

Probably, I was out shopping and got my make up done by someone else. I was not paying attention.

I guess my social transitioning is going well, and getting better about reminding people about pronoun usage.

Des-Bal wrote:There is no reason to believe them, because there's no reason to believe that that's a thing that can happen.

My baseline awareness is male or masculine, while the voice my mind speaks with is feminine.

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:My baseline awareness is male or masculine, while the voice my mind speaks with is feminine.

I see no reason to assume that matters or means what you think it does.

Des-Bal wrote:I see no reason to assume that matters or means what you think it does.

It’s just a description of my gender. I don’t identify as female, though part of me farther down the spectrum feels female. But my gender (or mind) is not “binary”, it is made of components.

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:It’s just a description of my gender. I don’t identify as female, though part of me farther down the spectrum feels female. But my gender (or mind) is not “binary”, it is made of components.

I repeat the statement.

Proctopeo wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
Maybe that's a sign that a lot of what's perceived as "acceptable" behavior for men is actually toxic.

No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior".

I did.

It's rarely used in reference to that.

Maybe your judgment of what is toxic behavior is skewed.

And even then it's almost always colored by the person using the term being one of those "lol men having feelings? #MasculinitySoFragile" sorts, or some other type of similarly toxic individual who shouldn't be calling anything toxic.

I've literally never seen that. The "Masculinity So Fragile" thing is only really used in reference to toxic masculinity that says men can't like flowers, or have any feelings aside from "HULK ANGRY HULK SMASH".

Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).[/quote]

Hardly. However, advertising that emphasizes aggressive masculinity is toxic. And its not even like there aren't things being advertised that are masculine, but not toxically so. For example, Old Spice commericals aren't displaying toxic masculinity. But Axe's line of "CHEMICAL WARFARE FOR YOUR BO" / "WEAPON OF MASS SEDUCTION" shit is textbook toxic masculinity in advertising.

Cappuccina wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior". It's rarely used in reference to that.


Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).

I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

Nice strawman. But, if anything, the toxic femininity is TERF bullshit.

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:

Cappuccina wrote:
I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

The whole point of feminism is that the female and male parts of the populations deal with different issues. Society puts different expectations on the genders. For men, this is an expectation of strength, violence, lack of nuance and no emotional output. For women, this is objectification, less interest in manual labour and the STEM fields. We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.

I mean, if anyone can look me straight in the eye, and honestly tell me that TERFs don't promote a toxic definition of femininity, speak up.

Proctopeo wrote:

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

So do about 98% of people who actually use the term, which suggests that their definition is predominant if not "official"
also >feminism fighting in favor of men on anything
I'm avin a laff

Actually, feminists back in the day of the ERA argued in favor of either making women sign up for the Selective Service as well, or just outright abolishing the draft, and also advocated for more equal divorce outcomes, AND a more inclusive definition of rape. And the antifeminists successfully fought against those things. I.E., everything MRAs today say feminists don't want.

Honestly, watch the video.

Cappuccina wrote:Ok then, what is non-toxic masculinity?

Masculinity that is not toxic. Gee, that was simple, wasn't it?

How can there be either toxic or non-toxic masculinity if "gender is a social construct" and doesn't really exist?

Something being a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This should be clearly evident through use of basic logic. Money, laws, and languages are also social constructs, but I'd like to see you break a law because it "isn't real".

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:No argument there. Yes. Some feminists do use it to the point of making me, a feminist too, chuckle.

Let’s also be clear in that some feminists other-ize trans women to ridiculous heights. Seeing them as invaders of a woman’s space and identity. Feminism is not innocent at all when it comes to hating and marginalizing trans women.

Yeah. I don't get why TERFs are so concerned with "women's spaces." If you ask me, gendered spaces should be minimized. Integration is a good thing, maybe even in bathrooms.

Cappuccina wrote:I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".

What's wrong with sex workers?

I'm also wondering that. And, as someone who knows several sex workers, I have to point out that being anti-SW is functionally being anti-trans, since so many trans people have no choice BUT to be sex workers.

Cappuccina wrote:

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:The fact they're not hurting anybody.

Perhaps not pummelling people, no, but sexwork is a social ill that has associated physical and mental detriment to women and people in general.

Where's the proof?

Communist Zombie Horde wrote:How is it transphobic to say their are two geneders?

How is it not transphobic to say that?

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:

Cappuccina wrote:
Yup, TERFs....ugh.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".

I have no problem with sex workers. If that’s what they want to do, more power to them. What I’d like is for them to have protections under law.

I'd like for it to be legal, so they don't have to face violence from cops, and social stigma that does unnecessary harm, and prevents them from reporting bad shit (like trafficking, rape, etc.) to cops.

Cappuccina wrote:I personally see it differently, I see non-binary ideas as anti-trans.

Then you see it wrong.

Saying you can be trans and then saying gender isn't real

Saying gender is a social construct =/= saying it isn't real.

or is a spectrum is inconsistent.

What's the problem with saying gender is a spectrum?

Iciaros wrote:Geez, why do these things always happen when I'm asleep?

Anyways, if this does split off into a new thread, does that mean we'll lose like several pages' worth of posts from here?

Yes, but don't worry, that just means we get to have this thread for that many pages more.

Just finished watching this video and I thought it was good to share it here: https://youtu.be/cR8tUs5YQvY

This married couple of 18 years stayed together and the wife helped and supported her now wife in her transition. Truly sweet and a nice slice of positivism.

Des-Bal wrote:I repeat the statement.

Your statement didn’t say much. It would seem you don’t have much to contribute at this point.

Cekoviu wrote:

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
There's no "invasion" going on. The OP and others raised toxic masculinity as a possible reasons for why a transman could have done a shooting. Some conversation on the wider utility of the term then arose organically from that.

Yes, which has caused non-regular posters to enter the thread and hijack it into being about nothing related to trans people anymore.

There's no "co-opting" going on. Hindus and others created swastikas as a religious symbol. Usage of it as a Nazi military symbol arose organically from that.

There's nothing wrong with non-regulars posting here, and nothing wrong with briefly talking about topics that are only tangentially related to trans issues.

Cekoviu wrote:It was just the first example that came to mind. Nothing specifically accusing you of being a Nazi (since a more accurate strawman would call you a Stalinist anyway, and I strive to maintain realism in my strawmen).

If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:It was just the first example that came to mind. Nothing specifically accusing you of being a Nazi (since a more accurate strawman would call you a Stalinist anyway, and I strive to maintain realism in my strawmen).

If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.

If Xeno's an Ancap and DI's a Stalinist, I'm a Blairite.

First American Empire wrote:

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.

If Xeno's an Ancap and DI's a Stalinist, I'm a Blairite.

Plot twist: we're all little teapots and that's why our posts are so pour.

Dumb Ideologies wrote:

First American Empire wrote:If Xeno's an Ancap and DI's a Stalinist, I'm a Blairite.

Plot twist: we're all little teapots and that's why our posts are so pour.

Speak for yourself, my posts aren't poor, they're short and stout.

Auzkhia wrote:
I guess my social transitioning is going well, and getting better about reminding people about pronoun usage.

That's good! Glad to hear things are going well for you. Hopefully it continues to get better from here on out. ^.^

On my end, I've been out to my parents for a while, and I usually wear my feminine clothes when I go out, but I only very recently started wearing those clothes around my parents (out of necessity more than anything else; I needed to get my sweet monster of a kitty to the vet, and I have neither a car nor driver's license). My father just takes it with no comment, as usual, but my mother clearly isn't happy about it. She won't force me to do anything or try to kick me out of the house or something, but she very obviously doesn't approve. Today when I was going out, she said "You better not let [your grandfather] see you wearing that", which is kind of the way she expresses her displeasure (through pointing out practical issues unrelated to the actual source of her unhappiness). When I came back, she told me to go get changed, to which I asked "Why? Is [my grandfather] coming over?", and she conspicuously didn't reply.

So, yeah. Neither of my parents are really 'supportive' in that way to much as 'resigned', though my mother more so. Unfortunate, and it does make me sad / annoyed / awkward, but they deserve to feel however they want. I'm eventually planning to move out when I'm financially independent, anyway, so hopefully that time comes soon.

In other news, I'm planning to legally change my name. I can't change my legal gender, but having a feminine name will make passing in school a lot easier. I'm hoping to start wearing dresses and such when my next term begins. It's a good thing I'm basically invisible, or else people might notice the change.

Grenartia wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior".

I did.

Hmm, I doubt that.

It's rarely used in reference to that.

Maybe your judgment of what is toxic behavior is skewed.

Highly unlikely. It's more likely a result of an ideological framework that puts harmless things as "toxic" due to sexism.

Hardly. However, advertising that emphasizes aggressive masculinity is toxic. And its not even like there aren't things being advertised that are masculine, but not toxically so. For example, Old Spice commericals aren't displaying toxic masculinity. But Axe's line of "CHEMICAL WARFARE FOR YOUR BO" / "WEAPON OF MASS SEDUCTION" shit is textbook toxic masculinity in advertising.

Why is "aggressive masculinity" "toxic"? Why is it bad that Axe advertises its body spray in a badass way? Sure, the product sucks, but that's separate from the advertising from said product.

Proctopeo wrote:So do about 98% of people who actually use the term, which suggests that their definition is predominant if not "official"
also >feminism fighting in favor of men on anything
I'm avin a laff

Actually, feminists back in the day of the ERA argued in favor of either making women sign up for the Selective Service as well, or just outright abolishing the draft, and also advocated for more equal divorce outcomes, AND a more inclusive definition of rape. And the antifeminists successfully fought against those things. I.E., everything MRAs today say feminists don't want.

Honestly, watch the video.

"According to a Youtube video by some pretentious sexist git, feminists back in the late 70s/early 80s didn't oppose a move for equal rights, which means feminists in the new 10's don't either!!!"
You do realize it's been near 40 years, right? Movements change. Times change. People change.
Hell, back when the ERA was first supposed back in the 20's, it really caused a split between feminists.

Also, in the words of an anon I came across when googling the URL:

based /pol/ack wrote:If you need a separate guide for people based on race and sex, I already know what you're selling me is sexist and racist so I don't care

As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:It was just the first example that came to mind. Nothing specifically accusing you of being a Nazi (since a more accurate strawman would call you a Stalinist anyway, and I strive to maintain realism in my strawmen).

If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.

Crikey, are you implying that you aren't?

Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "as a casual watcher of perfume commercials" before.

Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

>Glorifying spousal abuse
I guess I shouldn't expect much better from a company whose entire business model is aimed at convincing rappers and white 20 year olds trying to act like rappers to "flex" on poor people, but still, yikes.

Cekoviu wrote:

Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "as a casual watcher of perfume commercials" before.

Lol, I meant it in the vein of, "I may or may not notice perfume commercials on TV or on YouTube while I'm trying to watch a music video or a Markiplier playthrough."

Luminesa wrote:

Cekoviu wrote:I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "as a casual watcher of perfume commercials" before.

Lol, I meant it in the vein of, "I may or may not notice perfume commercials on TV or on YouTube while I'm trying to watch a music video or a Markiplier playthrough."

Yeah, it was just amusingly worded.

Crockerland wrote:

Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

>Glorifying spousal abuse
I guess I shouldn't expect much better from a company whose entire business model is aimed at convincing rappers and white 20 year olds trying to act like rappers to "flex" on poor people, but still, yikes.

Gucci's perfume only works if you want to smell like you just fell in a vat full of musk via Joker and the acid in The Killing Joke, climbed-out, and got asked five seconds later what flowers smell like. (Actually this may only be Gucci Bloom, whose commercial actually is just as much of a sensory overload.)

Cekoviu wrote:

Luminesa wrote:Lol, I meant it in the vein of, "I may or may not notice perfume commercials on TV or on YouTube while I'm trying to watch a music video or a Markiplier playthrough."

Yeah, it was just amusingly worded.

The Gucci Guilty one is just a commercial I recall in particular because it was so...brazen. Also, the perfume doesn't smell good at all.