TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Cekoviu]

A human being is strictly a biological system, but that is not at all necessary or useful in common parlance when there already exists a perfectly good term. Furthermore, I'm not sure if encouraging plural personalities is the best choice for people with DID (a massive asterisk here, though, as I'm not familiar with the specifics of the disorder - if that actually is considered appropriate by the psychiatric community, disregard that point).

I recommend watching the video Lumi linked. As for the terminology, its a useful way to talk about groups of personalities in one brain, one that shouldn't be abandoned if it allows us to better talk about the phenomenon.

I wouldn't be opposed to referring to a cluster of different personalities as a personality system. Referring to the person in which they are contained as a system is not appropriate or necessary, however.

[Grenartia]

Which is to say, not at all. Trans women lose to cis women pretty often, and trans men wipe the floor with cis women. The issue is less about how much testosterone one has ever had flowing through their veins, and more about how much currently is. The reason T is considered a performance enhancer, as I understand it, is because it helps maintain more muscle mass than otherwise. Trans women often have less T in their system than even cis women, so they're actually at a disadvantage.

So then would solution be a mandatory measuring of testosterone in the body in order to compete in mens/women's categories?

That seems messy.

I mean, they already measure the testosterone in athletes' bodies, at least at every level that truly matters.

[Grenartia]

I have no idea about anything in the Little community. Not even close to my cup of tea. I don't know what that has to do with Proct's "orbiters" comment, but to him I say it takes one to know one.

I feel as if I struck a nerve. Whups.

Not really, its just pretty funny to see this thread's resident orbiter complaining about orbiters.

I recommend watching the video Lumi linked. As for the terminology, its a useful way to talk about groups of personalities in one brain, one that shouldn't be abandoned if it allows us to better talk about the phenomenon.

I wouldn't be opposed to referring to a cluster of different personalities as a personality system. Referring to the person in which they are contained as a system is not appropriate or necessary, however.

Why isn't it?

[Salus Maior]

So then would solution be a mandatory measuring of testosterone in the body in order to compete in mens/women's categories?

That seems messy.

I mean, they already measure the testosterone in athletes' bodies, at least at every level that truly matters.

The messy bit that I'm thinking of is when, inevitably, a transperson is rejected from competing in their desired league for having too-much/too little T.

[Proctopeo]

I feel as if I struck a nerve. Whups.

Not really, its just pretty funny to see this thread's resident orbiter complaining about orbiters.

I'm an orbiter? How?
Do you even know what that means? And did you really miss an obvious pun?

[Rostavykhan]

Oh, for fuck's sake. "System"? Are you kidding?

They call it a "system" because these types tend to either have or be orbiters. :^)

Sensible_Chuckle.gif

[Imperial Joseon]

Not really, its just pretty funny to see this thread's resident orbiter complaining about orbiters.

I'm an orbiter? How?
Do you even know what that means?

Maybe, he meant someone who monitors, since orbit means eye.

[Grenartia]

I mean, they already measure the testosterone in athletes' bodies, at least at every level that truly matters.

The messy bit that I'm thinking of is when, inevitably, a transperson is rejected from competing in their desired league for having too-much/too little T.

I mean, we've already had a cis woman rejected from the Olympics for having too much T.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I thought it was really alter but eh.

I’ve come across these too in people who participate in the Little community. I can’t say I understand the whole “brat/prey/predator” talk when they talk about their Little personas though.

I have no idea about anything in the Little community. Not even close to my cup of tea. I don't know what that has to do with Proct's "orbiters" comment, but to him I say it takes one to know one.

I’m saying that the “system” talk has reminded me of alters and personalities, in Borderline Personality Disorder, but particularly in the Little community because some of their members create different personas.

Procto’s orbiter comment wasn’t what I was commenting on.

As for the sexual fetish comment, for some Littles, believe it or not, sex doesn’t play into it the dynamic. But that has nothing to do with my remark or the topic at hand.

[Cekoviu]

I wouldn't be opposed to referring to a cluster of different personalities as a personality system. Referring to the person in which they are contained as a system is not appropriate or necessary, however.

Why isn't it?

because a person with DID is still a single person, while "system" implies multiple

[Luminesa]

I mean that doesn't really sound like a gender identity then. Even if personalities can be different genders, they're all part of one person. Having multiple true gender identities sounds like it would be stressful to manage.

Nobody said being plural was a gender identity. And with plural people, based on what they've told me, its not as stressful to manage as you might think, and many who aren't open about being plural just say they're genderfluid (which isn't at all to imply that all genderfluid people are secretly plural, and I cannot stress that enough).

Isn't that common in most people? I mean, both men and women have hormones of both genders, thus they act in a way both genders do.

The amount of T in women and E in men isn't significant enough to affect how either acts, and that's if we assume that hormones can dictate how someone acts (influence, perhaps, but conscious control is still a thing people are capable of exercising). However, that has nothing to do with being plural.

There's also the issue that DID is a pretty serious mental disorder that oftentimes results from severe trauma. Turning it into a trendy pronoun could harm people who actually have DID, and could make people think they're also just being trendy.

its also important to note that not all plural people have DID.

DID results when a person has to create another personality to handle certain situations, people, or consequences. It's not like simply behaving one way online and one way offline, it's when a person has to create a whole new other person in their heads, in order to function in their everyday life. It's not super common, and it's not super well-understood, but it exists.

In the plural community, DID systems are often called traumagenic systems, while non-DID systems are known as endogenic systems.

It's rather fascinating, I watched a video of this couple in which both partners have it, and while it was rather confusing, it was enlightening on how some people live with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONcWhh-S0uo

I love this channel, btw, and the guy who runs the channel is very sweet, considerate, and thoughtful toward the people he speaks to. This is a good channel to help expose people to individuals living everyday lives with a variety of conditions, such as DID. Not really related to this thread, but since it came up, I had to mention this specific channel.

Neat video, thanks.

lot of people in this thread have clearly never talked to a plural system

Indeed.

Oh, for fuck's sake. "System"? Are you kidding?

Elaborate.

I'm glad people are watching this video! I don't understand much of the condition myself, but I think hearing people talk about such conditions puts a face to them that we often don't see. In the video, it looks kinda like Max and Scarlett/Amelia definitely have their struggles, but at the same time they're people like us.

I don't understand much of the use of the term "plural" outside of someone with DID, however. I can understand the pathology in that context, a person has personalities to cope with trauma or certain people. It makes sense. A person with BPD also having multiple personalities makes sense. I'm sure there are a couple of other conditions in which people make alternate personalities, in order to deal with trauma. But outside of a medical context, just being 'plural', or identifying as 'plural' seems to be taking attention from people who actually have multiple personalities. I don't like the trend of de-medicalizing terms and putting people with diagnosed conditions like DID or BPD in danger.

The other problem then is that, yes, "genderfluid" and "plural" don't mean the same thing, and thus that doesn't translate over well.

[Luminesa]

Elaborate.

A human being is strictly a biological system, but that is not at all necessary or useful in common parlance when there already exists a perfectly good term. Furthermore, I'm not sure if encouraging plural personalities is the best choice for people with DID (a massive asterisk here, though, as I'm not familiar with the specifics of the disorder - if that actually is considered appropriate by the psychiatric community, disregard that point).

HOT TAKE: If I funded for a sports/athletic competition that was exclusively for trans, would you support it or protest it and prefer competing with cisgen folk?

Heavily depends on context and specifics.

I think the idea is for the people to eventually, through therapeutic means, connect all of their personalities together to make a single one, and to help them function with that single personality. I'm not sure how, but the idea of the video is more to explore what it's like for a person to live with this disorder, to interact with others, to relax, to manage stress, and to do a lot of things that everyday people do.

Also, DID is the term used now, the previous term was "Multiple Personality Disorder", but this fell out of use more, because DID tends to be more complex than just having different personalities.

[Grenartia]

I'm an orbiter? How?
Do you even know what that means?

Maybe, he they meant someone who monitors, since orbit means eye.

That is not what I meant. Also, fixed the pronoun.

I have no idea about anything in the Little community. Not even close to my cup of tea. I don't know what that has to do with Proct's "orbiters" comment, but to him I say it takes one to know one.

I’m saying that the “system” talk has reminded me of alters and personalities, in Borderline Personality Disorder, but particularly in the Little community because some of their members create different personas.

Procto’s orbiter comment wasn’t what I was commenting on.

As for the sexual fetish comment, for some Littles, believe it or not, sex doesn’t play into it the dynamic. But that has nothing to do with my remark or the topic at hand.

Ahhh.

And yeah, lets get off of littles.

Why isn't it?

because a person with DID is still a single person, while "system" implies multiple

That's...the point.

I'm glad people are watching this video! I don't understand much of the condition myself, but I think hearing people talk about such conditions puts a face to them that we often don't see. In the video, it looks kinda like Max and Scarlett/Amelia definitely have their struggles, but at the same time they're people like us.

I don't understand much of the use of the term "plural" outside of someone with DID, however. I can understand the pathology in that context, a person has personalities to cope with trauma or certain people. It makes sense. A person with BPD also having multiple personalities makes sense. I'm sure there are a couple of other conditions in which people make alternate personalities, in order to deal with trauma. But outside of a medical context, just being 'plural', or identifying as 'plural' seems to be taking attention from people who actually have multiple personalities. I don't like the trend of de-medicalizing terms and putting people with diagnosed conditions like DID or BPD in danger.

The other problem then is that, yes, "genderfluid" and "plural" don't mean the same thing, and thus that doesn't translate over well.

According to the endogenic systems I've interacted with, their plurality just doesn't meet the criteria to be a disorder. And treating someone who doesn't have a disorder like they have one is quite frankly, counterproductive (as I'm sure many trans people here could attest). If anything, that's a bigger danger than whatever danger (I can't see what possible danger doing so results in) recognizing non-traumagenic plurality poses to traumagenic systems.

A human being is strictly a biological system, but that is not at all necessary or useful in common parlance when there already exists a perfectly good term. Furthermore, I'm not sure if encouraging plural personalities is the best choice for people with DID (a massive asterisk here, though, as I'm not familiar with the specifics of the disorder - if that actually is considered appropriate by the psychiatric community, disregard that point).

Heavily depends on context and specifics.

I think the idea is for the people to eventually, through therapeutic means, connect all of their personalities together to make a single one,

That is actually considered to be bad advice by most plural systems. Apparently, many have tried, and utterly failed. Kinda like conversion therapy.

and to help them function with that single personality. I'm not sure how, but the idea of the video is more to explore what it's like for a person to live with this disorder, to interact with others, to relax, to manage stress, and to do a lot of things that everyday people do.

The more productive route, which they say in the video, is for the different personalities to work together in a healthy way that doesn't adversely affect the system as a whole, or unduly burden any one member of it.

[Fahran]

With regard to plurals, while it seems many in the community insist that their multiple personalities do not constitute a disorder because they can function normally within society, the articles I've read suggest that they might not be the most impartial opinions on the matter. One person asserted that she could function well enough to hold down a job but she also mentioned having issues with employment and in social interactions when people found sudden changes in speech patterns and behaviors odd and jarring. I'll try to dig up the article again but I do suspect there's a strong cross-over between undiagnosed or self-diagnosed Dissociative Identity Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Schizophrenia and other mental illnesses and plurals. The strongest argument against these assertions is that plurals are functional but I'm not certain they can be described as consistently functional in the context of a society that provides no space for possession, tulpas, plurals, and the like. It's also important to appreciate that a lot of people who have mental illnesses will often resist diagnosis and treatment even when it's quite obvious to medical professionals that they require it. By accepting plurality as normal and healthy, we might be inadvertently putting these people in a bad situation. The behaviors DI described would certainly suggest dysfunction and disorder to me.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Ah. I see.

Is plural even a gender identity? It sounds more like a textbook example of Dissociative Identity Disorder contextualized through the lens of transgender and gender fluid identity.

It's not inherently, though most people I know with DID are trans/nb. Most headmates may be of a different gender than the "host"

More or less this, though its also important to note that not all plural people have DID. Source: I know a few plural people.

Sorry. I don't know what happened. What I meant to say is that I told xem that I thought neopronouns were silly. Xey did not take that well. I told xem I didn't understand the use for neopronouns. Xey said xey didn't owe me an explanation. Eventually xey said "We don't feel that they/them pronouns describe us adequately." I said "Fair enough I guess, but who's "we." Xey then informed me that xey were a plural "system." I told xem I didn't understand. I forget quite what happened after. It wasn't just that though, it was me generally having more right-wing opinions than them. It was a Communist server, an extremely progressive Communist server. Such that I was the only one there who didn't believe violence against conservatives was morally justified. We disagreed a lot and increasingly more. Eventually I looked at my Discord server list one day to find that server absent from it.

[Servilis]

http://scp-sandbox-3.wikidot.com/yeoss

so im working on a joke scp draft that critiques 12 year old edgelords on twitter




am i praxis yet

[Mettaton-EX]

as somebody who is involved in roller derby, the "trans women are destroying sports" fearmongering is utterly bizarre to me. we have no gender-testing requirements beyond self-identification, and it isn't a problem despite being unambiguously a contact sport

[Proctopeo]

http://scp-sandbox-3.wikidot.com/yeoss

so im working on a joke scp draft that critiques 12 year old edgelords on twitter




am i praxis yet

that is the cancer that is killing /scp/

rpc gang rpc gang
they also have a better object class system

[Ifreann]

as somebody who is involved in roller derby, the "trans women are destroying sports" fearmongering is utterly bizarre to me. we have no gender-testing requirements beyond self-identification, and it isn't a problem despite being unambiguously a contact sport

If people are so worried about the potentially unfair advantage of higher testosterone then clearly the answer is to restrict competitive sports to trans people who are on T blockers.

[Hanafuridake]

as somebody who is involved in roller derby, the "trans women are destroying sports" fearmongering is utterly bizarre to me. we have no gender-testing requirements beyond self-identification, and it isn't a problem despite being unambiguously a contact sport

If people are so worried about the potentially unfair advantage of higher testosterone then clearly the answer is to restrict competitive sports to trans people who are on T blockers.

I'm 115 lb and have been on a t-blocker for about eight months now, I feel like I'm probably the least likely to have a testosterone advantage.

[Ifreann]

If people are so worried about the potentially unfair advantage of higher testosterone then clearly the answer is to restrict competitive sports to trans people who are on T blockers.

I'm 115 lb and have been on a t-blocker for about eight months now, I feel like I'm probably the least likely to have a testosterone advantage.

I'm sure you'll make a great linebacker.

[Cekoviu]

http://scp-sandbox-3.wikidot.com/yeoss

so im working on a joke scp draft that critiques 12 year old edgelords on twitter




am i praxis yet

that is the cancer that is killing /scp/

rpc gang rpc gang
they also have a better object class system

What in the everloving fuck are you talking about

[Ifreann]

that is the cancer that is killing /scp/

rpc gang rpc gang
they also have a better object class system

What in the everloving fuck are you talking about

Competing creepypasta communities.

[Tinfect]

What in the everloving fuck are you talking about

Competing creepypasta communities.

Specifically, one 'competing' community that split off from SCP in a reactionary tantrum over the SCP community... having and supporting LGBT people.

[Auzkhia]

HOT TAKE: If I funded for a sports/athletic competition that was exclusively for trans, would you support it or protest it and prefer competing with cisgen folk?

That wouldn't solve the problem with physical disparity.

An MtF person would demolish an FtM person just as much as they do with cis women.

Short of dividing the sporting leagues even further, there really isn't a fair solution to any of this. Physicality can't be handwaved like the concept of gender has been.

*struggles to open my estradiol and spironolactone bottles*

Ah man, I can't wait to demolish those poor weak biological females at sport. /s

A side effect of feminizing HRT is losing muscle mass and strength. Even so, I wasn't the most athletic person. Besides, there are countless trans women in women's sports, and they aren't winning. Besides a lot of top tier athletes have so called unfair natural advantages, should Michael Phelps get arm reduction surgery to be more fair to regular humans?