TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[West Leas Oros 2]

The concept of "toxic masculinity" does have some conceptual validity. I have certainly observed men acting obnoxiously towards women, gay people etc. as a way of "confirming" their own masculinity.

The trouble lies partly in the gaping absence of a female conceptual equivalent. Quite clearly there are women who act badly towards men as a result of insecurity about their femininity. Women who sleep around and cheat on their partners because they're insecure in their own self-worth as women because of the messages they've internalised from wider society and, yes, other women.

Politically speaking, those people who make sweeping negative comments about all men being malevolent, in a position of privilege (completely ignoring other forms of disadvantage), or automatically useless because they are men are practising toxic femininity. An overgeneralised fear is converted to hatred and a universalising self-victimhood that casts an entire gender as a homogeneous evil mass. In a lesser form, those women who automatically blame every problem in their professional and personal lives on the patriarchy and refuse to examine the flaws in their own behaviour and actions are performing toxic femininity. Similarly, the women who are obsessional about "womyn-only spaces" and think that transwomen must be rapists or the product of patriarchal brainwashing? Toxic femininity.

The other problem is the slipperyness of the term and the easy way in which it can be used to dismiss criticism of toxic femininity. It can be deployed against anyone who disagrees with something that a feminist is saying while using the feminist label, roughly along these lines:

1) Feminism is about the equality of women
2) If you disagree with a feminist who is seeking to "educate you" then you must be opposed to female equality
3) Opposition to female equality reflects a sense of entitlement or misogyny

Therefore disagreeing with a feminist can be near-axiomatically manufactured into an accusation of toxic masculinity. I don't know that the term can really be saved because of that inherent slipperyness and because the binary oppressor/oppressed narrative refuses the very possibility of there being a female counterpart to it.

Generally, I've seen the same apologetic rhetoric that "bUt TawKsiC mAskyOoliNitEe huRtS mEn! ThAt mEaNs we hElp MeN!" Uhh, no. It's used mostly as a way to absolve responsibility on their part. Refusing to take responsibility and pinning all the blame on men. Notice how the enemy is always "teh paytreearkee" and that men are always the fault of problem. TL;DR, the rhetoric is just "Men are so terrible, they even betray each other".

[Bienenhalde]

I sort of agree, but I would not necessarily describe the outrageous behavior of certain extreme feminists as "toxic femininity". To me, "femininity" implies mainstream gender stereotypes, which feminists generally reject. Instead of being overly feminine, many feminists shy away from anything particularly feminine and try to imitate male behavior, even when it is not really a good thing and leads to them imitating the toxic masculine behaviors that they hypocritically decry.

What constitute, to you, male behaviors that these ‘non feminine women’ emulate?

The main examples that come to mind are aggression, violence, sexual promiscuity, and lack of proper grooming and personal hygiene. Of course such characteristics may not be inherent to men, per se, but they have long been associated with toxic masculinity.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

What constitute, to you, male behaviors that these ‘non feminine women’ emulate?

The main examples that come to mind are aggression, violence, sexual promiscuity, and lack of proper grooming and personal hygiene. Of course such characteristics may not be inherent to men, per se, but they have long been associated with toxic masculinity.

Those are human traits, in general. Regardless of sex or gender, we humans can be aggressive, piggish, promiscuous and violent. None of those are inherently masculine. They’re inherently human.

[West Leas Oros 2]

What constitute, to you, male behaviors that these ‘non feminine women’ emulate?

The main examples that come to mind are aggression, violence, sexual promiscuity, and lack of proper grooming and personal hygiene. Of course such characteristics may not be inherent to men, per se, but they have long been associated with toxic masculinity.

Everything bad is associated with toxic masculinity. They have to absolve responsibility for their own misdeeds somehow. The reason that they don't believe femininity could be toxic is because that would mean admitting responsibility.

[West Leas Oros 2]

The main examples that come to mind are aggression, violence, sexual promiscuity, and lack of proper grooming and personal hygiene. Of course such characteristics may not be inherent to men, per se, but they have long been associated with toxic masculinity.

Those are human traits, in general. Regardless of sex or gender, we humans can be aggressive, piggish, promiscuous and violent. None of those are inherently masculine. They’re inherently human.

And yet it comes to mind as a "masculine" thing in the mind of the public. Kind of telling....

[Bienenhalde]

The main examples that come to mind are aggression, violence, sexual promiscuity, and lack of proper grooming and personal hygiene. Of course such characteristics may not be inherent to men, per se, but they have long been associated with toxic masculinity.

Those are human traits, in general. Regardless of sex or gender, we humans can be aggressive, piggish, promiscuous and violent. None of those are inherently masculine. They’re inherently human.

Yes, but toxic masculinity seems to encourage these faults, would you not agree?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Those are human traits, in general. Regardless of sex or gender, we humans can be aggressive, piggish, promiscuous and violent. None of those are inherently masculine. They’re inherently human.

And yet it comes to mind as a "masculine" thing in the mind of the public. Kind of telling....

I don’t think they are inherently masculine or non-feminine. They’re human traits. Just that.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Those are human traits, in general. Regardless of sex or gender, we humans can be aggressive, piggish, promiscuous and violent. None of those are inherently masculine. They’re inherently human.

Yes, but toxic masculinity seems to encourage these faults, would you not agree?

Not really. No.

[Bienenhalde]

The main examples that come to mind are aggression, violence, sexual promiscuity, and lack of proper grooming and personal hygiene. Of course such characteristics may not be inherent to men, per se, but they have long been associated with toxic masculinity.

Everything bad is associated with toxic masculinity. They have to absolve responsibility for their own misdeeds somehow. The reason that they don't believe femininity could be toxic is because that would mean admitting responsibility.

But it is not necessarily the fault of feminists that people associated such flaws with men. It is the fault of sexist men with twisted mindsets who actually encourage other men to engage in such behavior and try to paint it as a good thing, while sometimes hypocritically punishing the same faults in women. Such hypocrisy is bad, but it would be better to raise the standards of behavior for men instead of just allowing unlimited brutality and immorality.

[Cappuccina]

How is it transphobic to say their are two geneders?

It goes against the "social construct" narrative. In mainstream feminism, theory on transexuality and anti-binaryism go hand in hand. I personally see it differently, I see non-binary ideas as anti-trans.

Saying you can be trans and then saying gender isn't real or is a spectrum is inconsistent.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Everything bad is associated with toxic masculinity. They have to absolve responsibility for their own misdeeds somehow. The reason that they don't believe femininity could be toxic is because that would mean admitting responsibility.

But it is not necessarily the fault of feminists that people associated such flaws with men. It is the fault of sexist men with twisted mindsets who actually encourage other men to engage in such behavior and try to paint it as a good thing, while sometimes hypocritically punishing the same faults in women. Such hypocrisy is bad, but it would be better to raise the standards of behavior for men instead of just allowing unlimited brutality and immorality.

Can you not see how this line of reasoning unavoidably diminishes and dismisses the possibility that woman, by her own responsibility, can do wrong? By this logic, if women behave badly they are imitating male behaviours due to patriarchy - and the blame must therefore be shared with men, whereas if a man does something bad it's all their own fault.

Denying and downplaying bad female behaviour is a self-fulfilling prophecy - it continually reinforces the idea that bad behaviour is a male thing.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Gender is indeed a social construct. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It exists as a construct. You are wilfully misunderstanding feminist rhetoric by conflating various different ideas.

Gender is not a social construct. Gender roles might be socially constructed but gender is not. There is a biological basis for gender and if there wasn't there would be no reason for transgender people to be treated differently or taken more seriously than weaboos, wiggers, or otherkin. There is a reason that transgender people and their problems need to be taken more seriously than a group of people who are just looking to transcend some cultural barriers and it's the same reason there's such a high incidence of phantom penises and breasts in the transgender population- a biological basis for gender.

First of all, difference between sex and gender. It’s important.

Gender is literally defined as describing socially constructed differences. That’s what the word means. That’s why we have a different word for sex and gender.

[Communist Zombie Horde]

How is it transphobic to say their are two geneders?

It goes against the "social construct" narrative. In mainstream feminism, theory on transexuality and anti-binaryism go hand in hand. I personally see it differently, I see non-binary ideas as anti-trans.

Saying you can be trans and then saying gender isn't real or is a spectrum is inconsistent.

That doesn’t make sense but at least you answered.

[West Leas Oros 2]

But it is not necessarily the fault of feminists that people associated such flaws with men. It is the fault of sexist men with twisted mindsets who actually encourage other men to engage in such behavior and try to paint it as a good thing, while sometimes hypocritically punishing the same faults in women. Such hypocrisy is bad, but it would be better to raise the standards of behavior for men instead of just allowing unlimited brutality and immorality.

Can you not see how this line of reasoning unavoidably diminishes and dismisses the possibility that woman, by her own responsibility, can do wrong? By this logic, if women behave badly they are imitating male behaviours due to patriarchy - and the blame must therefore be shared with men, whereas if a man does something bad it's all their own fault.

Denying and downplaying bad female behaviour is a self-fulfilling prophecy - it continually reinforces the idea that bad behaviour is a male thing.

Exactly my point, it's all about absolving responsibility.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Can you not see how this line of reasoning unavoidably diminishes and dismisses the possibility that woman, by her own responsibility, can do wrong? By this logic, if women behave badly they are imitating male behaviours due to patriarchy - and the blame must therefore be shared with men, whereas if a man does something bad it's all their own fault.

Denying and downplaying bad female behaviour is a self-fulfilling prophecy - it continually reinforces the idea that bad behaviour is a male thing.

Exactly my point, it's all about absolving responsibility.

Which is also a nice way to rob women of agency. “She’s violent because of toxic masculinity. It’s not her fault.” No, it’s not that. She’s violent because she is violent and it may be due to a host of reasons. None of them need to be related to men or their behavior.

[Tarsonis]

Gender is not a social construct. Gender roles might be socially constructed but gender is not. There is a biological basis for gender and if there wasn't there would be no reason for transgender people to be treated differently or taken more seriously than weaboos, wiggers, or otherkin. There is a reason that transgender people and their problems need to be taken more seriously than a group of people who are just looking to transcend some cultural barriers and it's the same reason there's such a high incidence of phantom penises and breasts in the transgender population- a biological basis for gender.

First of all, difference between sex and gender. It’s important.

Gender is literally defined as describing socially constructed differences. That’s what the word means. That’s why we have a different word for sex and gender.

Okay, but, if I may chime in, it doesn’t negate the point that gender isn’t purely socially constructed and pulled out of the aether, but is inherently tied to biological sex.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Exactly my point, it's all about absolving responsibility.

Which is also a nice way to rob women of agency. “She’s violent because of toxic masculinity. It’s not her fault.” No, it’s not that. She’s violent because she is violent and it may be due to a host of reasons. None of them need to be related to men or their behavior.

This sounds suspiciously like a way of deflecting responsibility, ironically enough. "She's violent, but that's what society gets for denying her agency!"

[Des-Bal]

First of all, difference between sex and gender. It’s important.

Gender is literally defined as describing socially constructed differences. That’s what the word means. That’s why we have a different word for sex and gender.

You can always identify the joyously culturally elitist someone is by the speed with which they bring up the difference between sex and gender in a context where it does not matter.

Gender is best understood as the brain's understanding of the sex. That is why being transgender is different than wanting to be part of a different cultural group, because regardless of the social constructs associated with gender it does in fact have a biological basis.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Which is also a nice way to rob women of agency. “She’s violent because of toxic masculinity. It’s not her fault.” No, it’s not that. She’s violent because she is violent and it may be due to a host of reasons. None of them need to be related to men or their behavior.

This sounds suspiciously like a way of deflecting responsibility, ironically enough. "She's violent, but that's what society gets for denying her agency!"

It ties in into what you said and Bienhalde. She’s violent because men, he said. It strips a woman of agency. This is not denying that yes, it’s also a way in which people consciously or unconsciously absolve her of responsibility. It’s also an excuse she can use to absolve herself of the consequences of her behavior. I’m not absolving anyone however. I’m telling you what this view point does.

It blames men for the actions of the woman. Robs women of agency, making them incapable in the eyes of others to choose, and it’s a convenient excuse for her to be absolved.

[Cekoviu]

I would yet again like to note that there is a feminism thread; please don't drag that stupid topic into our space.

[Des-Bal]

I would yet again like to note that there is a feminism thread; please don't drag that stupid topic into our space.

There's not actually.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I would yet again like to note that there is a feminism thread; please don't drag that stupid topic into our space.

We’re discussing women. Aren’t trans women women too? They are. This topic affects them too.

[West Leas Oros 2]

This sounds suspiciously like a way of deflecting responsibility, ironically enough. "She's violent, but that's what society gets for denying her agency!"

It ties in into what you said and Bienhalde. She’s violent because men, he said. It strips a woman of agency. This is not denying that yes, it’s also a way in which people consciously or unconsciously absolve her of responsibility. It’s also an excuse she can use to absolve herself of the consequences of her behavior. I’m not absolving anyone however. I’m telling you what this view point does.

I see. You know, not to get all "Horseshoes" on you, but there's a lot of ideals that are shared between the extreme feminists and the... patriarchyists? They view the same thing, but draw opposite conclusions. In a similar vein though, those campaigning for equality share views as well. Shame they side with the supremacists of their own identity rather than cross the identity line.

[Cekoviu]

How is it transphobic to say their are two geneders?

It goes against the "social construct" narrative. In mainstream feminism, theory on transexuality and anti-binaryism go hand in hand. I personally see it differently, I see non-binary ideas as anti-trans.

Saying you can be trans and then saying gender isn't real or is a spectrum is inconsistent.

The gender spectrum and social constructionism are extremely different things. I do not by any means support social constructionism, yet the gender spectrum is obvious.

[Des-Bal]

The gender spectrum and social constructionism are extremely different things. I do not by any means support social constructionism, yet the gender spectrum is obvious.

How is it obvious? I requested any evidence of it and recieved none.