TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Dumb Ideologies]

I don't have much interest in defining other people's sexuality tbh. As a moderately sex-averse part of the ace gang I'm not particularly informed on what people get up to and I prefer not to think too much about it. But if I had to give them a label? If the person who likes dick is male, gay is what I'd go with. Trans people are a small subset of the population. In my opinion, making up new labels for people who have different levels of interest in a small number of cases on the fuzzy edge of things is overthinking. Too much sacrifice of intelligibility for too little gain in accuracy.

^ This is probably the most intelligent post regarding sexual identity that I’ve have read on this thread.

I have ascended and become a being of pure rationality. There's no toilet on my cloud so look sharp and invest skill points in evasion. I'm very sorry.

[Page]

How would you describe a particular person that has a strong preference towards individuals that have a penis or any other particular configuration of genitals.

I don't have much interest in defining other people's sexuality tbh. As a moderately sex-averse part of the ace gang I'm not particularly informed on what people get up to and I prefer not to think too much about it. But if I had to give them a label? If the person who likes dick is male, gay is what I'd go with. Trans people are a small subset of the population. In my opinion, making up new labels for people who have different levels of interest in a small number of cases on the fuzzy edge of things is overthinking. Too much sacrifice of intelligibility for too little gain in accuracy.

I think that is fair. Transwomen are women and transmen are men but there are some people whose attraction is more dependent on genitals than gender.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

TERFs don't advocate strict adherence to traditional gender norms. If anything, they often advocate strict rejection of traditional gender norms, often shaming people who decide to conform to them.

Nah, TERFs think that any woman who doesn't conform to stereotypical femininity is an evil male invading women's spaces.

Literally what? Find me a TERF who actually thinks this.

[Vassenor]

Nah, TERFs think that any woman who doesn't conform to stereotypical femininity is an evil male invading women's spaces.

Literally what? Find me a TERF who actually thinks this.

So what's causing all this then?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Literally what? Find me a TERF who actually thinks this.

So what's causing all this then?

Not TERFs.

[Vassenor]

So what's causing all this then?

Not TERFs.

So what is the TERF opinion on transwomen using bathrooms?

[New Paine]

^ This is probably the most intelligent post regarding sexual identity that I’ve have read on this thread.

I have ascended and become a being of pure rationality. There's no toilet on my cloud so look sharp and invest skill points in evasion. I'm very sorry.

I have seen too people on this thread and in actual real world attempting to assign labels and identities to people that they do not know and have never met.

[Ifreann]

Nah, TERFs think that any woman who doesn't conform to stereotypical femininity is an evil male invading women's spaces.

Literally what? Find me a TERF who actually thinks this.

Every story about cis women getting hassled for using the "wrong" bathroom, every anecdote they tell about "So there was this man in the women's changing room".

[Grenartia]

He is openly using their rhetoric, right down to the "TERF is a slur" bullshit.

Well it seems to be used in a way that is consistent with a slur, against anyone who supports dropping the T from LGBT or simply takes issue with widespread erasure of gay, lesbian, and bisexual people in favor of the TTTT community from LGBT spaces, events, and groups, even if they support legal equality for trans people.

Nobody ought to be a TERF, sure, but nobody ought to be a feminist in general?

Maybe if you live in Yemen or something (though apparently, according to the UN, having it illegal for women to leave their home without a man, but legal for men to rape their wives and marry 9 year old girls, actually sends out some good and positive feminist vibes, earning Yemen an executive seat on UN Women), but no one ought to be a feminist in the civilized world.

Think of it like ethnic nationalism - White people in South Africa would be very justified to establish their own state, that would be a reasonable response to the oppression they've faced in their nation, just like the Jews established their own state due to widespread persecution. But white people trying to do the same thing in America would not be justified or good, quite the opposite.

Similarly, women are not second-class citizens in the United States, and, if anything, are over privileged in many ways compared to men, such as how low of sentences they get compared to men for the same crimes. And just like ethnic nationalism, though feminism can be a tool against oppression in some situations, it mostly serves to be harmful in a civilized nation where those situations do not exist.

I guess I should've known better than to open up that can of worms.

Not that TERFs actually are feminists, mind you.

How are they not?

Because they see women as nothing more than walking vaginas, which is exactly what misogynists do. They aren't feminists, merely LARPers.

All TERFs are feminists. Don't use the word for people to whom it doesn't apply. That gives basis to the "TERF is a slur" movement.

Something tells me they'd rather be called TERFs than FARTs.

Transition regret is in fact, rare. Like, maybe 0.1% of all cases, if I remember correctly. And most of it does seem to be related to transphobia, and not realizing that transition was wrong for the individual in question.

The current standards of care for trans people are heavily biased in favor of weeding out cases of regret. In many areas, this bias is structured in such a way that it actually ends up being quite a bit counterproductive, since it restricts people who actually need transition from getting access to it. This is one of the forms gatekeeping takes.

Do you have any sources for that stat?

Alright, I was off, but not by much. It appears to be somewhere between 0.3-0.5%.

So how exactly do TERFs determine who is a transwoman and who isn't?

Irrelevant.

How the fuck is it not relevant?

Includes butch lesbians? I hope you're not saying it includes all butch lesbians.

No of course not. Just that there are TERF butch lesbians, which rather undermines the idea that they're rigidly enforcing traditional gender roles.

Which ignores the reality that they use rigid traditional gender roles to dismiss and marginalize and harrass trans people and any non-conforming people they don't approve of. Including butch lesbians and other conventionally unattractive and otherwise non-passing cis women (presumably thinking they are trans women).

You cannot seek to kick trans women out of public spaces without also harrassing those other women, unless you get a potty police to examine everyone's genitals and chromosomes. They haven't (yet) gotten the political backing for a Toilet TSA, so they have to resort to reinforcing traditional gender roles to intimidate us.

And it is very much relevant to the idea of enforcing traditional gender norms to ask how TERFs identify who is and who is not a transwoman. Because that's how they do it. To the point where it's getting butch lesbians and other insufficiently stereotypically feminine ciswomen harassed.

I don't quite see how a video of dubious providence showing policemen ejecting a woman from a bathroom because she's not feminine enough relates to TERFs. I don't think the policeman is a TERF, or that the legislature which passed the laws allowing this was made up of TERFs.

TERFs were the ones who took advantage of the laws and called the cop. And TERF groups have been teaming up for years with the conservative lobby groups (most notably the Heritage Foundation) that pushed for bathroom laws to get passed.

And I'll say it again, it's just not relevant on how they practically identify women who are trans and those who are female.

You repeated, yet again, without justification for your assertion.

Yeah you're just trying to dodge the question again. How do TERFs identify who is and is not a transwoman then?

You accuse me of dodging the question, yet you ignore my entire argument to double down on this essentially irrelevant point. Talk about pot calling the kettle black.

Pretty gaslighty of you, NGL.

I don't care how TERFs identify transwomen. It probably differs among TERFs. I imagine some might not even think that far ahead, or ignore it because their only interaction with transwomen is online.

Oh, they most definitely think that far ahead, and they most definitely dream of finding a trans woman IRL and harrassing the shit out of her, just so they can go back and brag and get accolades from their TERF groups.

So by that logic North Korea is a democracy.

And it is very much relevant to the idea of enforcing traditional gender norms to ask how TERFs identify who is and who is not a transwoman. Because that's how they do it. To the point where it's getting butch lesbians and other insufficiently stereotypically feminine ciswomen harassed.

Those. People. Aren't. TERFS.

How do you know?

You keep dismissing it as irrelevant because it flies in the face of your contention that TERFs are not interested in enforcing traditional gender norms.

For three reasons.

1) There are TERFs who clearly go against these "traditional gender norms". The aforementioned Butch Lesbians.

Who are mostly excluded from the majority's considerations, since most TERFs pass as women.

2) Feminists of the past have enforced some traditional gender norms and not others. The suffragettes, for example, wanted to change traditional gender roles, but essentially retained many traditional gender norms that modern-day progs would consider regressive. Hence, it's irrelevant to whether TERFs are feminists or not, the very point of this argument which you have ignored.

The focus is on the here and now, not now to 100 years ago. An apples-to-apples comparison of TERFs to mainstream, modern feminism. Comparing TERFs to suffragettes is apples to oranges. You should know that.

3) With regards to the bathroom issue you've mentioned, TERFs aren't the ones enforcing it,

They're definitely the ones teaming up with the lobbyists and the ones calling the cops. They may not be directly involved in the legislative and executive processes of it, but they're sure as fucking hell complicit in it. The links are clear, and you can either admit it, or continue to have your head buried in the sand.

and therefore I doubt they care about the specifics of who looks feminine enough and who doesn't.

Then why do they care at all about trans women in women's bathrooms?

That sort of thing is something the Conservative Evangelicals who actually write and enforce those bills worry about, and they do support traditional gender norms. For TERFs, transwomen in female bathrooms is bad enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_ ... servatives

https://www.thedailybeast.com/radical-f ... der-people

Harassing someone in a public bathroom for totally being a transwoman to the point of calling the police to have them ejected isn't TERF behaviour?

And it's more than just this one incident.

Nope. It's TE behaviour, but these people aren't exhibiting RF behaviour. Hence, not TERFs.

By that metric, no TERF is a TERF, because they all fail to meet the RF criteria.

So where does the idea that "transwomen are just men looking to break into gendered spaces to rape women" come from?

That's fair. Though you will get people upholding family values who believe the same, and they may well have been the origin of this.

Its a political/philosophical 69. They're mutually reinforcing and influencing, even if they're complete opposites on most other issues.

People who argue for the rigid enforcement of traditional gender norms and gender policing are feminists?

TERFs don't advocate strict adherence to traditional gender norms. If anything, they often advocate strict rejection of traditional gender norms, often shaming people who decide to conform to them.

You've obviously never seen TERFs ridicule trans women for failing to conform to traditional gender norms, then.

Nah, TERFs think that any woman who doesn't conform to stereotypical femininity is an evil male invading women's spaces.

I've more or less addressed this already. TERF's conception of femininity does not require them to act or present in a traditionally or stereotypically feminine way because they believe in biological essentialism. Hence all the butch lesbians who are TERF's.

The best guess I've seen (granted, this is mostly just conjecture from trans twitter) is that the butch lesbian TERFs who don't pass for women are a small minority among TERFs and one that the majority of TERFs are seemingly willing to throw under the bus if it means harming us. There may also be a significant number of BL TERFs who are also willing to 'take one for the team', as it were.

I've more or less addressed this already. TERF's conception of femininity does not require them to act or present in a traditionally or stereotypically feminine way because they believe in biological essentialism. Hence all the butch lesbians who are TERF's.

TERFs believe that they can identify "biological males" on sight alone, but what this amounts to is believing in stereotypes of femininity. They can say that they believe in biological essentialism, but it turns out that you can't do much of an assessment of a stranger's biology just by seeing them walking into the Ladies' Room.

Precisely.

TERFs believe that they can identify "biological males" on sight alone,

Do they though?

That's what they tell us ever so tauntingly. They can't, and we know it, but they certainly want us to believe they can, since they keep telling us that. Its a psy-op. It only works on themselves and other transphobic people, though.

[Saciu]

Literally what? Find me a TERF who actually thinks this.

So what's causing all this then?

Transphobes. Not necessarily TERFs. If they're not RFs, they're not TERFs.

[Saciu]

Not TERFs.

So what is the TERF opinion on transwomen using bathrooms?

They're against people whom they view as men being in women's bathrooms.

[Auzkhia]

TERFs are just one specific type of transphobe, as I said before. The difference is that they dress up their hatred, disgust, and bigotry in feminist platitudes. Others use different excuses.

[Vassenor]

TERFs are just one specific type of transphobe, as I said before. The difference is that they dress up their hatred, disgust, and bigotry in feminist platitudes. Others use different excuses.

Hence Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.

[Proctopeo]

TERFs are just one specific type of transphobe, as I said before. The difference is that they dress up their hatred, disgust, and bigotry in feminist platitudes. Others use different excuses.

It's more that their bigotry is rooted in their feminism than anything.

[Saciu]

TERFs are just one specific type of transphobe, as I said before. The difference is that they dress up their hatred, disgust, and bigotry in feminist platitudes. Others use different excuses.

Hence Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.

Ok. Always use that instead of TERF, then.

[Fahran]

TERFs are just one specific type of transphobe, as I said before. The difference is that they dress up their hatred, disgust, and bigotry in feminist platitudes. Others use different excuses.

Hence Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.

Except TERF's aren't reactionary and aren't appropriating feminism. Really, the one part that's true is that they're transphobic.

[Hanafuridake]

Except TERF's aren't reactionary and aren't appropriating feminism. Really, the one part that's true is that they're transphobic.

Yeah, I don't think that you can say that the political lesbians and free bleeders are conservative.

[Vassenor]

Hence Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe.

Except TERF's aren't reactionary and aren't appropriating feminism. Really, the one part that's true is that they're transphobic.

No, it's very reactionary (as in literally a reaction to trans rights gaining mainstream acceptance) and it cloaks itself in feminist rhetoric to try and seem legitimate.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Except TERF's aren't reactionary and aren't appropriating feminism. Really, the one part that's true is that they're transphobic.

No, it's very reactionary (as in literally a reaction to trans rights gaining mainstream acceptance) and it cloaks itself in feminist rhetoric to try and seem legitimate.

Many of them have been lifelong involved in feminist writing and practical campaigning on issues like domestic violence, funding for rape shelters, legal reform, getting more women into politics etc. Calling their rhetoric a cloak is an asinine conspiracy theory. It's what they genuinely believe in. They believe keeping transwomen out of the movement is necessary to protect and further those they consider to be women. Obviously if you consider transwomen to be not only women but a particularly vulnerable group of women their views seem abhorrent, but that doesn't mean they don't honestly hold them and they're not coming from a feminist theoretical base and milieu.

[Auzkhia]

TERFs are just one specific type of transphobe, as I said before. The difference is that they dress up their hatred, disgust, and bigotry in feminist platitudes. Others use different excuses.

It's more that their bigotry is rooted in their feminism than anything.

Transphobia is fundamentally anti-feminist.

[Fahran]

Transphobia is fundamentally anti-feminist.

Except it's not, as others have pointed out. You can be a feminist and a transphobe simultaneously while being consistent in your belief systems and prejudices. I'm a feminist and pro-trans rights, but I'm not going to resort to a No True Scotsman fallacy. It's enough to tell them that they're wrong on this and other issues.

[Hanafuridake]

Transphobia is fundamentally anti-feminist.

Except it's not, as others have pointed out. You can be a feminist and a transphobe simultaneously while being consistent in your belief systems and prejudices. I'm a feminist and pro-trans rights, but I'm not going to resort to a No True Scotsman fallacy. It's enough to tell them that they're wrong on this and other issues.

Exactly, creating an essentialized and ahistorical definition of “true feminism” is not going to solve the problem of transphobic currents in the feminist movement.

[Fahran]

Exactly, creating an essentialized and ahistorical definition of “true feminism” is not going to solve the problem of transphobic currents in the feminist movement.

What do you think would? Continual debates on the matter seems to be driving TERF's into a corner at the moment. Just keep applying pressure and winning the arguments?

[Philjia]

No, it's very reactionary (as in literally a reaction to trans rights gaining mainstream acceptance) and it cloaks itself in feminist rhetoric to try and seem legitimate.

Many of them have been lifelong involved in feminist writing and practical campaigning on issues like domestic violence, funding for rape shelters, legal reform, getting more women into politics etc. Calling their rhetoric a cloak is an asinine conspiracy theory. It's what they genuinely believe in. They believe keeping transwomen out of the movement is necessary to protect and further those they consider to be women. Obviously if you consider transwomen to be not only women but a particularly vulnerable group of women their views seem abhorrent, but that doesn't mean they don't honestly hold them and they're not coming from a feminist theoretical base and milieu.

A lot of them are comfortable taking backhanders from dodgy American conservative evangelicals but it's probable the TERFs erroneously think they're using the conservatives, rather than the other way around. Divide et impera.

[Hanafuridake]

Exactly, creating an essentialized and ahistorical definition of “true feminism” is not going to solve the problem of transphobic currents in the feminist movement.

What do you think would? Continual debates on the matter seems to be driving TERF's into a corner at the moment. Just keep applying pressure and winning the arguments?

Yes, I don't think anything is more harmful to TERF's cause than allowing their proponents to open their mouths.