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TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:44 am

Fahran wrote:
Grenartia wrote:I understand why the debate exists, but I really hate that it does exist.

I believe it's a necessary debate if we intend to set up transitioning as a bonafide medical treatment. I don't think euphoria alone provides a viable justification for the vast majority of insurance plans, least of all in public healthcare systems. Dysphoria, on the other hand, provides a compelling argument for medical necessity.


Yeah, this basically.

Plus you have to properly mentally evaluate people or you'll get more people who go the whole way to permanent effects through medication or even surgery and then realise they've made a mistake. Which is miserable for them, results in lawsuits against the institutions, and gives an almost unlimited supply of ammo for those who try to argue that medical transition should be curtailed or made much more difficult.

The ideal solution isn't abolition of transmedicalism but making it more receptive to non-binary people, and properly fund gender psychiatry so that people can have more regular appointments rather than the long wait time mostly being unsupported admin delays which encourage people to massage their stories in the direction of what they think the authorities want to hear.

If you want medical treatment then requiring a diagnosis of dysphoria is quite legit. I'm more open to the idea of changing identity documents on the basis of self-definition, though there'd have to be penalties for any people who tried to do it for fraudulent purposes like lowering their insurance premium, and possibly limitations on access to women-only spaces unless someone submits themselves to that psychiatric evaluation process.
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Hediacrana
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Postby Hediacrana » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:07 am

General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.
Last edited by Hediacrana on Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:17 am

Fahran wrote:
Grenartia wrote:I understand why the debate exists, but I really hate that it does exist.

I believe it's a necessary debate if we intend to set up transitioning as a bonafide medical treatment. I don't think euphoria alone provides a viable justification for the vast majority of insurance plans, least of all in public healthcare systems. Dysphoria, on the other hand, provides a compelling argument for medical necessity.


As I've previously pointed out, dysphoria is often so difficult to adequately convey to others that it should not be relied on as a diagnostic criteria for transition. It may be compelling, but it is also unnecessarily exclusionary. It is entirely possible to have dysphoria and not be aware of it (this was me from as far back as I can remember until age 17) but be aware that you have gender feels.

Hediacrana wrote:General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.


Also, this.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:23 am

Hediacrana wrote:General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.

I'm not discounting social dysphoria as a treatable condition in my statements. It's apparently linked to PTSD and other mental health issues. However, one would still require a medical diagnosis of some sort to warrant insurance coverage. Euphoria alone does not suffice as medical necessity since I'm certain a good many people would experience euphoria from non-essential procedures. From the little I've read, social dysphoria doesn't always necessitate a transition, right? The short explanations I've scanned over mention language, gender roles, and gender expectations rather than the body.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:26 am

Fahran wrote:
Hediacrana wrote:General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.

I'm not discounting social dysphoria as a treatable condition in my statements. It's apparently linked to PTSD and other mental health issues. However, one would still require a medical diagnosis of some sort to warrant insurance coverage. Euphoria alone does not suffice as medical necessity since I'm certain a good many people would experience euphoria from non-essential procedures. From the little I've read, social dysphoria doesn't always necessitate a transition, right? The short explanations I've scanned over mention language, gender roles, and gender expectations rather than the body.

It doesn't necessitate one in all cases, but it may be important to resolve social dysphoria (as one who has not physically transitioned will have to explain their gender to each person they interact with heavily, a difficult and often fruitless thing).
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:28 am

Grenartia wrote:As I've previously pointed out, dysphoria is often so difficult to adequately convey to others that it should not be relied on as a diagnostic criteria for transition. It may be compelling, but it is also unnecessarily exclusionary. It is entirely possible to have dysphoria and not be aware of it (this was me from as far back as I can remember until age 17) but be aware that you have gender feels.

The alternative is to cover procedures on request without any required referral, supporting documentation, or medical necessity and that opens up healthcare systems to substantial expenses that would not be justified for other demographics on euphoric grounds and opens up medical professionals to potential suits for medical malpractice if we define these procedures as medical rather than cosmetic procedures. And I don't believe there's any effective method to get patients to waive their right to legal recourse if a transition occurs without medical necessity and it negatively impacts their mental health, fertility, or any other sort of health.

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Postby Fahran » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:31 am

Cekoviu wrote:It doesn't necessitate one in all cases, but it may be important to resolve social dysphoria (as one who has not physically transitioned will have to explain their gender to each person they interact with heavily, a difficult and often fruitless thing).

I take it this mostly applies to non-binary and non-passing trans people? I don't really know what else can be done for them from a medical perspective beyond the realm of mental health. If your society lacks widespread recognition of your gender identity, you're stuck in a hard place that medicine can't do too much to remedy. If you're talking about dysphoria as a symptom which transitioning through surgery and horomone therapy can treat, I haven't really excluded that by requiring diagnosis. Social dysphoria is diagnosible when it contributes to negative mental health outcomes.
Last edited by Fahran on Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Cekoviu » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:39 pm

Fahran wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:It doesn't necessitate one in all cases, but it may be important to resolve social dysphoria (as one who has not physically transitioned will have to explain their gender to each person they interact with heavily, a difficult and often fruitless thing).

I take it this mostly applies to non-binary and non-passing trans people? I don't really know what else can be done for them from a medical perspective beyond the realm of mental health. If your society lacks widespread recognition of your gender identity, you're stuck in a hard place that medicine can't do too much to remedy. If you're talking about dysphoria as a symptom which transitioning through surgery and horomone therapy can treat, I haven't really excluded that by requiring diagnosis. Social dysphoria is diagnosible when it contributes to negative mental health outcomes.

I have no idea how you came to any of these conclusions.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:47 pm

Cekoviu wrote:I have no idea how you came to any of these conclusions.

Mostly from my own research and understanding of how healthcare and medicine work.

I think I misunderstood your initial statement. You're stating that people with social dysphoria might well require transitioning as a medical treatment. I don't really dispute that so long as a medical diagnosis is present. It follows logically from what social dysphoria is and its connection to mental health issues like depression, PTSD, etc. I thought you were talking about non-medical issues for whatever reason. The wording threw me off.

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:12 pm

Hediacrana wrote:General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.

I'm pretty sure I've been already saying "body dysphoria" or "bodily dysphoria" and I agree with you anyway because social dysphoria is a significant part of my experience; though I have both.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:34 am

Hediacrana wrote:General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.

What’s a social dysphoria?
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:18 am

The Friend is trending. They were an 18th-century nonbinary person.

Jennie June was the first trans person in the U.S to write about herself. She was an androgyne and probably might have been transfeminine as well, though the article goes over what terms she used for herself.


West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Hediacrana wrote:General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.

What’s a social dysphoria?

It describes feelings of gender dysphoria in socialization and social interactions. Basically, what one could feel when they are misgendered, or when one feels discomfort in a social role that ultimately induces distress.
Last edited by Auzkhia on Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CivitasDei » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:01 pm

I’m starting hormones whenever they get here. I’m super excited.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:11 pm



God bless The Friend!



I need to read that autobiography some day.

CivitasDei wrote:I’m starting hormones whenever they get here. I’m super excited.


Congratulations, I'm so damn jealous! :hug:
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CivitasDei
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Postby CivitasDei » Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:33 pm

Grenartia wrote:


God bless The Friend!



I need to read that autobiography some day.

CivitasDei wrote:I’m starting hormones whenever they get here. I’m super excited.


Congratulations, I'm so damn jealous! :hug:

Thanks Gren! <3

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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:37 pm

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Hediacrana
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Postby Hediacrana » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:02 am

Auzkhia wrote:
Hediacrana wrote:General remark: could we please try to not refer to specifically physical dysphoria with just 'dysphoria'? Social dysphoria is real; it should be acknowledged as valid reason for transition; and it seems to be almost always left out of these debates.

I'm pretty sure I've been already saying "body dysphoria" or "bodily dysphoria" and I agree with you anyway because social dysphoria is a significant part of my experience; though I have both.

I know Auzi :) I was talking more generally to the participants in the discussion (and like you, I have quite minor body dysphoria and much more significant social dysphoria).



Publick Universal Friend is awesome.

CivitasDei wrote:I’m starting hormones whenever they get here. I’m super excited.

Good for you! :hug:
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Hediacrana
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Postby Hediacrana » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:03 am

For those here interested in graphic novels, Marvel released a graphic novel describing the experience and activism of 12yo transgender advocate Rebekah. Her story is a pretty interesting one.

Marvel's Hero Project — the first nonscripted production from the superhero studio — recounts Rebekah's remarkable journey as a young activist. The docuseries shows that, in addition to a being public advocate, Rebekah is a role model for other young trans people in a support group and a singer in her Christian church, where her father is a pastor. She even spoke about her story at a youth conference organized by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in 2018.

The episode of Marvel's Hero Project also shows her coming-out journey. She articulated that she was trans by age 8, when her mother outlined the LGBTQ acronym after a search for gender-nonconforming bathing suits.

Below, Rebekah and her mother, Jamie, discuss the episode, her activism, a surprise appearance from a possibility model, and her own history-making role as the first transgender hero in a Marvel production.

(...)
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:40 pm

Thread hasn't been active in a while. Let's start it up again.
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Postby Necroghastia » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:46 pm

Cekoviu wrote:Thread hasn't been active in a while. Let's start it up again.
transmedicalism

Is useless at best.
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Postby The Chode Islands » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:50 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:I am disappointed though that quiz didnt have any options for being a goddamn sexual tyrannosaurus


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That is, you can't hold anybody while you're having sex or even masturbate because your arms are too short?


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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:49 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Thread hasn't been active in a while. Let's start it up again.
transmedicalism

Is useless at best.

I disagree. This is an argument.
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Postby Proctopeo » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:58 pm

Cekoviu wrote:Thread hasn't been active in a while. Let's start it up again.
transmedicalism

Is the correct opinion.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:00 pm

Cekoviu wrote:Thread hasn't been active in a while. Let's start it up again.
transmedicalism

It's pertinent in any discussion where we propose to employ horomone therapy and/or gender reassignment surgery as covered and medically supported treatments for a medical condition known as gender dysphoria, in this context not excluding diagnosable body and social dysphoria. That is not to say that we should invalidate the gender identity of people who are not suffering from gender dysphoria but, rather, that we do not need to treat their transgender identity as a medical concern because, frankly, it isn't one. And I don't suspect that's going to be a popular opinion here.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:00 pm

And yet again this thread has disappeared from my "view your posts" list. :meh:
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