TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Necroghastia]

No. The last thing we need in this world is more fucking militarism and war.

We have it already. Like it or not.

Hence why I said "more."

[Hediacrana]

What are you trying to convey with those first scare quotes? Is the suggestion that if one believes gender is socially constructed (which, trendy but false dichotomies notwithstanding, does NOT mean it is "just a construct" without any basis in biology), one can't truly be trans?

We routinely get rants in here about whether people with right-wing or even the wrong sort of left-wing views belong in the trans community because people here believe people who hold them to be indirectly complicit in movements likely to harm the trans community; even if the trans person in question doesn't believe in the elements hostile to the trans community and tries to argue against them. So "you don't belong because of your ideology" is something that's definitely on the table in our rules of engagement.

Indeed, our deconstructionist gang here are generally the sort of militant left-libertarians who tend to greet such posts with enthusiastic agreement. In these circumstances, I don't think there can be much legitimate grumbling on their part about how unacceptable and shocking it is that someone might say gender deconstructionists don't belong; they literally undermine the central narrative pillars for trans people accessing health services and achieving social legitimacy.

I was being a hypocrite here for sure in appropriating their style of argument that I fucking hate. Honestly though, I'm sick of the weasely double standards and pretend openness of the increasingly toxic and gaslighty trans community (especially online), this bullshit where one minute everyone's trying to jam the discourse window shut and then the next some of the most obviously potentially harmful vocabulary on gender must not only get a full hearing but anyone who's sceptical of it is dubious for truscummery?

You know how male homosexuals who were fed up to the teeth with the gay community came up with that alternate label of "androphile"? We need to set up a similar one for trans people, invite over the few cool people, build a giant bunker and unleash a million nukes on the surface.

Pray show where I ever said anyone wasn't trans if they didn't have the right ideological outlook and we'll talk - otherwise I'm going to have to toss that post in the old strawmen bin.

[Hediacrana]

Only three people attended a 'Dallas Straight Pride' event.

Straight Pride event at Dallas City Hall plaza attracted three supporters on Saturday.

The march was hosted by the anti-LGBTQ group Protecting Our Next Generations (PONG). On its Facebook, the group promised the event would include discussions of abortion (“it is murder”), marriage values (“one man and one woman”) and genders (“there are only two”). An event flyer also posted on page reads that “we as Americans are allowing our values and morals to be compromised.”

[Auzkhia]

Only three people attended a 'Dallas Straight Pride' event.

Straight Pride event at Dallas City Hall plaza attracted three supporters on Saturday.

The march was hosted by the anti-LGBTQ group Protecting Our Next Generations (PONG). On its Facebook, the group promised the event would include discussions of abortion (“it is murder”), marriage values (“one man and one woman”) and genders (“there are only two”). An event flyer also posted on page reads that “we as Americans are allowing our values and morals to be compromised.”

I'd like to see TransHets steal straight pride.

[Hediacrana]

Only three people attended a 'Dallas Straight Pride' event.

I'd like to see TransHets steal straight pride.

I don't actually think I've seen the term transhets used before. Cishets, for sure, but not transhets. Makes sense, though.

[Auzkhia]

I'd like to see TransHets steal straight pride.

I don't actually think I've seen the term transhets used before. Cishets, for sure, but not transhets. Makes sense, though.

I know we've seen transbian before, transhet is similar to that.

[Fahran]

Who is a radical deconstructionist?

You? Me? Him?

The "trans people" repeating transphobic tropes in barely modified form by suggesting that it's just about wearing a costume to feel "euphoria" because gender is just a liberatory game of dressup uwu,

Something that occurs to me is that many people, even those who reflect on gender at length, often lack a refined definition for gender. I've seen quite a few YouTube trans activists referencing unconventional clothing choices (I'm not trans because I wear a tie. I'm still a cishet woman.) or feelings (That's not how social constructs work.) as gender, as opposed to potential gender norms, and it boggles the mind a bit, especially when that has the potential to, as you've asserted, undermine arguments for transition as a medically necessary procedure that saves lives. I just think some people aren't as well-educated about the topic as they could be. And that's before we get into transphobes and biological essentialists.

[Hediacrana]

The "trans people" repeating transphobic tropes in barely modified form by suggesting that it's just about wearing a costume to feel "euphoria" because gender is just a liberatory game of dressup uwu,

Something that occurs to me is that many people, even those who reflect on gender at length, often lack a refined definition for gender. I've seen quite a few YouTube trans activists referencing unconventional clothing choices (I'm not trans because I wear a tie. I'm still a cishet woman.) or feelings (That's not how social constructs work.) as gender, as opposed to potential gender norms, and it boggles the mind a bit, especially when that has the potential to, as you've asserted, undermine arguments for transition as a medically necessary procedure that saves lives. I just think some people aren't as well-educated about the topic as they could be. And that's before we get into transphobes and biological essentialists.

Generalized impressions about unnamed people on youtube do not strike me as the most constructive avenue of discourse. More helpful to name actual opinion makers and discuss their actual arguments. Natalie Wynn or Kat Blaque, for instance. Or, if we want to expand beyond the realms of Youtube and actually read books ( ), people like Kate Bornstein and Julia Serano.

[Fahran]

Generalized impressions about unnamed people on youtube do not strike me as the most constructive avenue of discourse. More helpful to name actual opinion makers and discuss their actual arguments. Natalie Wynn or Kat Blaque, for instance.

Give me a bit. I'll need to scrounge through trans YouTube and find several examples of the sort of argument I'm referencing. If I never come back, assume that I have been assimilated.

That said, I do invite you to discuss the basic argument that DI posed since she is a lot more compelling when discussing those issues than me.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Generalized impressions about unnamed people on youtube do not strike me as the most constructive avenue of discourse. More helpful to name actual opinion makers and discuss their actual arguments. Natalie Wynn or Kat Blaque, for instance.

Give me a bit. I'll need to scrounge through trans YouTube and find several examples of the sort of argument I'm referencing. If I never come back, assume that I have been assimilated.

That said, I do invite you to discuss the basic argument that DI posed since she is a lot more compelling when discussing those issues than me.

Won't be checking in too much to respond myself because - as probably comes across in my last couple of posts - I'm super burnt out and disillusioned on trans stuff at the moment to the point where I want to launch every single online activist into an active volcano.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

No. The last thing we need in this world is more fucking militarism and war.

We have it already. Like it or not.

The mere existence of something does not make it worth spreading.

[Hediacrana]

Generalized impressions about unnamed people on youtube do not strike me as the most constructive avenue of discourse. More helpful to name actual opinion makers and discuss their actual arguments. Natalie Wynn or Kat Blaque, for instance.

Give me a bit. I'll need to scrounge through trans YouTube and find several examples of the sort of argument I'm referencing. If I never come back, assume that I have been assimilated.

That said, I do invite you to discuss the basic argument that DI posed since she is a lot more compelling when discussing those issues than me.

The basic argument that gender is purely performative, without any basis in biology? I've already said that that is not a view that I subscribe to. As I said on the last page or so, I see it as neither true or helpful - it's what Serano calls 'gender artifactualism.' But that gender is not purely performative does not mean that the opposite is true, that gender is entirely untouched by sociocultural factors (as 'gender essentialism' would have it). A polarized 'nature versus nurture' debate is a reductive oversimplification of reality. How a given individual experiences gender is the result of biological as well as socio-cultural factors, and these are interrelated in complex ways.

I think that a complex, mixed model also makes most sense if you look at the variety of ways in which gender plays out in the world.
In cultures across time and across the world, it seems obvious that the large majority of people falls in socially recognized categories that we could fairly straightforwardly describe as either cis male or cis female. Some cultures additionally have socially recognized categories for people who don't fall in either of those groups - such as hijras in South Asia, two-spirited people among many Indigenous North Americans, or trans people in the 21st century West - whereas other cultures (such as the culture of many of our great-grandparents) do not. I tend to think that this is best explained as a culturally variable expression of a natural variance of biologically caused dispositions within individuals; in other words, that biological predispositions play out differently depending on cultural and historical factors. I also think that those of us who are trans are best served by working towards a culture that recognizes us (and our rights) as we are - and that is why, for instance, work towards legal recognition of our gender is important.

[Cekoviu]

Give me a bit. I'll need to scrounge through trans YouTube and find several examples of the sort of argument I'm referencing. If I never come back, assume that I have been assimilated.

That said, I do invite you to discuss the basic argument that DI posed since she is a lot more compelling when discussing those issues than me.

Won't be checking in too much to respond myself because - as probably comes across in my last couple of posts - I'm super burnt out and disillusioned on trans stuff at the moment to the point where I want to launch every single online activist into an active volcano.

I'm beginning to reach that point as well.

[Auzkhia]

Won't be checking in too much to respond myself because - as probably comes across in my last couple of posts - I'm super burnt out and disillusioned on trans stuff at the moment to the point where I want to launch every single online activist into an active volcano.

I'm beginning to reach that point as well.

There is no unity in the trans community. Trans twitter alone can make you see that, even getting misgendered by other trans people because they don't like you really tells you that.

[Fahran]

I'm beginning to reach that point as well.

There is no unity in the trans community. Trans twitter alone can make you see that, even getting misgendered by other trans people because they don't like you really tells you that.

Ew, toxicity.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

I'm beginning to reach that point as well.

There is no unity in the trans community. Trans twitter alone can make you see that, even getting misgendered by other trans people because they don't like you really tells you that.

That's a shame, I figured that the trans community would be one of the least divided communities out there, shared suffering and all that. Especially since every single one of you deserves love and support that you might not be getting from other sources.

Why do you think the trans community is so toxic? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.

[Proctopeo]

There is no unity in the trans community. Trans twitter alone can make you see that, even getting misgendered by other trans people because they don't like you really tells you that.

That's a shame, I figured that the trans community would be one of the least divided communities out there, shared suffering and all that. Especially since every single one of you deserves love and support that you might not be getting from other sources.

Why do you think the trans community is so toxic? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.

I don't think that there's any one answer, but many different contributing factors.

[Cekoviu]

There is no unity in the trans community. Trans twitter alone can make you see that, even getting misgendered by other trans people because they don't like you really tells you that.

That's a shame, I figured that the trans community would be one of the least divided communities out there, shared suffering and all that. Especially since every single one of you deserves love and support that you might not be getting from other sources.

Why do you think the trans community is so toxic? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.

I think it's a mix of mental illness being more common in trans people and the increased need to vent rage because of repression.

[Nakena]

I think it's a mix of mental illness being more common in trans people

Ill add cultural factors to that:

Interior: Having developed or adopted toxic and self-defeating socio-subcultural and as well political traditions (you know what i mean) and associated thought-patterns.

Exterior: Ultimatively rooted in a (normative levelled, pseudo-christian, culturally petit bourgious) culture and society that has traditionally no place for LGBT except on its fringes and niches.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Give me a bit. I'll need to scrounge through trans YouTube and find several examples of the sort of argument I'm referencing. If I never come back, assume that I have been assimilated.

That said, I do invite you to discuss the basic argument that DI posed since she is a lot more compelling when discussing those issues than me.

Won't be checking in too much to respond myself because - as probably comes across in my last couple of posts - I'm super burnt out and disillusioned on trans stuff at the moment to the point where I want to launch every single online activist into an active volcano.

You’re not the only one.

[Auzkhia]

There is no unity in the trans community. Trans twitter alone can make you see that, even getting misgendered by other trans people because they don't like you really tells you that.

That's a shame, I figured that the trans community would be one of the least divided communities out there, shared suffering and all that. Especially since every single one of you deserves love and support that you might not be getting from other sources.

Why do you think the trans community is so toxic? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.

I don think it is is inherently, especially in the big picture, probably just a few bad apples, like transmeds, and those who can't get deal with their pain and dysphoria and take it out on others. As a community, we've been hurt and traumatized.

I just need to step back and take inventory, but also realize that everyone, including myself, needs to work on their pain properly. The Discourse™ can wait, I'll go therapy and vent to my polycule on Discord, and call it a day.

That's a shame, I figured that the trans community would be one of the least divided communities out there, shared suffering and all that. Especially since every single one of you deserves love and support that you might not be getting from other sources.

Why do you think the trans community is so toxic? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.

I think it's a mix of mental illness being more common in trans people and the increased need to vent rage because of repression.

That's one part of it, though depression and anxiety certain do not help gender dysphoria and can be worse, especially when society tells you, a trans person, that you really really should not be like this. Alienation is one part of gender dysphoria.

[True Refuge]

There is no unity in the trans community. Trans twitter alone can make you see that, even getting misgendered by other trans people because they don't like you really tells you that.

Ew, toxicity.

Really is painful how much the virtue-signalling extremities of Woke Twitter sets back progressivism and discourse.

[Grenartia]

Entirely debatable, since genes and hormones cannot adequately explain all of the varied nuances of gender.

Oof, big swing and a miss with that one. They absolutely could, although whether they actually do so alone could be argued. Don't underestimate the power of genes, and recall that the human genome is 3 Gb (haploid) long.

I do not see any reason to believe that they can. I want to see hard evidence.

I think this is a perfect encapsulation of the problem with that line of thinking.

Nice job cutting out the operative clause there. Did the Climategate people teach you how to do that?

You DO realize I was in agreement with you there, right? Also, cutting off the rest of the sentence there was to indicate what part of the quote specifically I was agreeing with.

Honestly, I don't think we really know what gender is at this point. However, the best models to describe it come from psychology, not biology, so we can safely assume it is a psychological phenomenon of some sort.

In 1500 AD: "The best models to describe the diversity of life come from religion, so we can safely assume it is a supernatural phenomenon of some sort."

Nice try, but no.

I mean, sure, but by that logic, all of psychology is biology.

I'll cut you off here. I'm not saying it's pychological. I'm saying it's neurological, and given that the brain is formally a physical construction associated with a significant portion of life, it falls under the jurisdiction of biology.

Which is like saying "I know how to make a circuit, therefore, I'm a master of how to program in C#."

Just because you are familiar with the intricacies of the hardware, does not inherently make you an expert in the software. For clarification, that you is for biologists in general, not just you specifically.

[Grenartia]

Sometimes reality doesn't conform to what is most useful for a particular political purpose.

I mean, my point is that if gender is a social construct, that presents a problem for the trans community because then dysphoria is intangible and based on social conditioning, not internal psychology, and as a result does not present a particular reason for acceptance. It, in short, reduces transgender status to opinion rather than reality. And opinion can be debated, which undermines the legitimacy of trans activism.

Honestly, it seems to be psycho-social, if anything. The psychology and society interact with each other in a quite complex manner.

It's lazy centrism that prioritizes making both sides of the argument happy and therefore inflates psycho-/sociological aspects and implies that aberrant genders aren't mistakes.

You say that like its a bad thing. Which doesn't make for a look good at all, fam.

She's a biologist and fairly well-known (though, now that she is in her fifties, probably less known with the youngest generations of people invested in trans issues) trans activist. In a nutshell, she argues, among other things, that gender both has a basis in biology (including neurobiology) and simultaneously is also shaped by culture, and that denying either aspect is false as well as harmful.

The realization of gender can be shaped by culture, but I am vehemently opposed to the notion that culture itself could affect the development of gender.

Why, because the idea that no individual is an island unto themself, that the idea that you are just as susceptible to societal forces as the most mindless, shallow, and vapid human in existence, scares you?

He also emphasized that people who struggle with gender dysphoria should be treated with compassion because of their high suicide rate. In summation, Catholics have a responsibility to bring people with gender dysphoria into the welcoming arms of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

To be entirely fair, the Catholic institution's currently-endorsed ways of doing that arguably do nothing to help bring the high suicide rate down, are quite alienating, condescending, and insulting (see: Francis literally comparing us to nuclear weapons), and arguably contrary to God's Will (as best as I can infer it to be, at least, though I see no reason why Francis or a priest have any better feel on that subject than I). In short, the Catholic organization has almost certainly done a better job of addressing sex abuse by its priests (as laughable as that effort has been until extremely recently, and perhaps even still is, as any activist in that area will tell you) than it has at attempting to undo the centuries of intolerance and oppression towards the LGBT+ community that it has historically and contemporaneously been responsible for.

Well I mean. Hehe. That's also assuming we have to justify ourselves to literally anybody.

We don't have to justify our existence to fucking nobody. And especially not Christians.

If gender dysphoria is not biological then you do actually, because it's no longer someone's existence that is being criticized, but rather the way they express themselves. However, if gender dysphoria is biological (i.e. it is something ingrained in the nature of the person, which cannot be altered or changed), then there can be no argument against it, and refusal of acceptance can then be explained only by hatred.

Not really. Handedness is biologically-determined, but up until very recently, many societies regarded left-handedness negatively, and even in the Middle East and Asia, this attitude persists.

Oooh, I like you.

Shut up baby I know it >:P

You think you like me now.

You ever see the amazing Criterion Collection movie, The Mummy, starring Brendan Fraser?

I actually have a multi-religion pendant necklace, except ironically unironically, because once I got sick of Catholicism, I worshipped in quite a few religions for a bit.

I went to a Buddhist retreat, a Hindu temple, a Muslim mosque, I read the Book of Mormon, I joined a UFO cult for a bit, I even explored my roots and visited both a Jewish synagogue AND a Jews for Jesus group meeting. I have like 10 different religious symbols on this thing, and when I'm feeling religious, I make sure I say a little prayer to each one, make sure I'm covering my bases.

End of the day... It's all the same garbage

Wish me luck on my Hermetic experiments. Maybe that succubus will show up one day for that Netflix and Chill session.

You know, you'd fit in well in a Unitarian Universalist congregation.

This is what seems to be the belief in a few individuals active in this thread

I don't buy it for many reasons, it does not match my personal experiences of social dysphoria. If one were truly female in mind and soul (assuming such a thing exists), misgendering wouldn't be as cruel or painful, and it does not account for nonbinary trans people. Some transphobes like Blanchard and Bailey claim it is the gospel of the transgender community, it's not really a strawman though since some people believe in it, though their alternative is much much worse (do we really need to get into autogynephilia?), and I think it is really hard to tie down gender to one single category, but we're still going to try anyway. Gender is mostly socially constructed, but there are psychological and neurological experiences related to it, posing a classic chicken vs egg paradigm. Can you find masculinity and femininity in nature? No, but nobody denies sex traits exist, but in humans they are not binary either, i.e intersex, and even something that is "biologically male/female" also exists on a spectrum, sex traits are a bimodal average. These are based off of some findings, but even if you tried to find a biological cause of being trans, it'd still cannot account for gender variance in humans across different societies and even within the same society we live in.

I'll say it, the 'essence' concept of being transgender strikes me as the most correct at this time. Its not like we really have a better explanation for any other aspect of personality that I know of (aside from certain disorders). So why treat gender any differently?

I think what you need are...

A) A new order who kicks out liberalism into trashcan alongside this unproductive discourse nonsense

B) A total militarization of society. There wont be either worries about any constructed or non-constructed identities, dysphorias, gender (or racial) differences or any assorted issues when you're all wearing uniform and march to the same beat and drum.

C) Obviously, and necessarily, as consequence War. Against those who are not yet part of this or oppose it.

What ye say? :^)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ALemFzmEY

Also Fried Chicken

So besides gender essentialism, gender artifactualism and gender holism, you're proposing gender militarism? More of a gender panarchist myself.

Gren, I think this cries out for a poll.

I honestly don't even know what's going on.

So besides gender essentialism, gender artifactualism and gender holism, you're proposing gender militarism? More of a gender panarchist myself.

Gren, I think this cries out for a poll.

We need to keep the Cis out and build a wall.

Oh no. This is going to be a poll that's demanded, isn't it?

The "trans people" repeating transphobic tropes in barely modified form by suggesting that it's just about wearing a costume to feel "euphoria" because gender is just a liberatory game of dressup uwu,

Something that occurs to me is that many people, even those who reflect on gender at length, often lack a refined definition for gender.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I don't really think one exists, at least not currently. Contrapoints has compared it to defining what a chair is, and how it is basically impossible to create a simple definition that is also inclusive of every case while excluding things that don't count.

That's a fundamental philosophical problem, tbh. Using the chair example, you could say "A chair is a device for sitting that has four legs and a back, and was created by man." What if it has only 3 legs? What if it has one big leg? What if it was made by a woman? What if the seat breaks and it can't be sat in? What if the back breaks?

Gender is pretty much the same way, as is virtually everything else. Is a hotdog a sandwich? Is cereal soup? Who fucking knows?! Up until Sedna was discovered, astronomers didn't really have a precise definition for distinguishing between planets and asteroids, other than 'one big and round, other small and lumpy'. I'm not sure particle physicists even know what spin is, other than something they needed in their models that they needed a word for (because it sure as hell isn't literal spinning).

That's a shame, I figured that the trans community would be one of the least divided communities out there, shared suffering and all that. Especially since every single one of you deserves love and support that you might not be getting from other sources.

Why do you think the trans community is so toxic? I honestly can't wrap my head around it.

I think it's a mix of mental illness being more common in trans people and the increased need to vent rage because of repression.

I agree with that assessment. Also, hurt people hurt people.

[Cekoviu]

Oof, big swing and a miss with that one. They absolutely could, although whether they actually do so alone could be argued. Don't underestimate the power of genes, and recall that the human genome is 3 Gb (haploid) long.

I do not see any reason to believe that they can. I want to see hard evidence.

I see no reason to believe that they couldn't. I've seen much stranger.

Nice job cutting out the operative clause there. Did the Climategate people teach you how to do that?

You DO realize I was in agreement with you there, right?

Nope, that was not clear. My bad.

I'll cut you off here. I'm not saying it's pychological. I'm saying it's neurological, and given that the brain is formally a physical construction associated with a significant portion of life, it falls under the jurisdiction of biology.

Which is like saying "I know how to make a circuit, therefore, I'm a master of how to program in C#."

Just because you are familiar with the intricacies of the hardware, does not inherently make you an expert in the software. For clarification, that you is for biologists in general, not just you specifically.

I'm not saying biologists are going to be experts by default in it (obviously; I study entomology, ffs, so I would have absolutely zero knowledge on this topic without seeking it out independently), just that it is a biological problem or at the very least is not psychological.