TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Proctopeo]

The problem with the "gender is a social construct" theory is that, while trying to be progressive, it actually delegitimizes trans people because it reduces the experience of the trans person to an intangible feeling that can be dismissed by the opponents of trans people, whereas the biological/neurological theory legitimizes gender dysphoria in a way that even the most ardent conservative can't dismiss, and actually forces them into a losing argument where they have to argue for subjecting people to suffering based on their (the conservative's) feelings. The end result hopefully being that a conservative who values empathy will change their mind, as has happened in numerous cases around the world.

Very much this.
There's also collateral damage dealt to sexualities in general, as the rhetoric, especially if blindly extended to sex, can be readily used to justify the "being gay IS a choice" stance.

[Ifreann]

The problem with the "gender is a social construct" theory is that, while trying to be progressive, it actually delegitimizes trans people because it reduces the experience of the trans person to an intangible feeling that can be dismissed by the opponents of trans people, whereas the biological/neurological theory legitimizes gender dysphoria in a way that even the most ardent conservative can't dismiss, and actually forces them into a losing argument where they have to argue for subjecting people to suffering based on their (the conservative's) feelings. The end result hopefully being that a conservative who values empathy will change their mind, as has happened in numerous cases around the world.

Sometimes reality doesn't conform to what is most useful for a particular political purpose.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The problem with the "gender is a social construct" theory is that, while trying to be progressive, it actually delegitimizes trans people because it reduces the experience of the trans person to an intangible feeling that can be dismissed by the opponents of trans people, whereas the biological/neurological theory legitimizes gender dysphoria in a way that even the most ardent conservative can't dismiss, and actually forces them into a losing argument where they have to argue for subjecting people to suffering based on their (the conservative's) feelings. The end result hopefully being that a conservative who values empathy will change their mind, as has happened in numerous cases around the world.

Sometimes reality doesn't conform to what is most useful for a particular political purpose.

I mean, my point is that if gender is a social construct, that presents a problem for the trans community because then dysphoria is intangible and based on social conditioning, not internal psychology, and as a result does not present a particular reason for acceptance. It, in short, reduces transgender status to opinion rather than reality. And opinion can be debated, which undermines the legitimacy of trans activism.

[Ifreann]

Sometimes reality doesn't conform to what is most useful for a particular political purpose.

I mean, my point is that if gender is a social construct, that presents a problem for the trans community because then dysphoria is intangible and based on social conditioning, not internal psychology, and as a result does not present a particular reason for acceptance. It, in short, reduces transgender status to opinion rather than reality. And opinion can be debated, which undermines the legitimacy of trans activism.

I agree that it will make trans activism more difficult. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Hediacrana]

On this issue, I believe Julia Serano's take is really helpful.

[Des-Bal]

Sometimes reality doesn't conform to what is most useful for a particular political purpose.

And unfortunately reality doesn't everyone's personal truths to be vindicated. Being transgender isn't a choice so it's not "gatekeeping" to say some people are not transgender or that some things are not genders.

[Cekoviu]

On this issue, I believe Julia Serano's take is really helpful.

What a ridiculously shitty take. I don't know who that is, but I don't like them at all.

[Des-Bal]

What a ridiculously shitty take. I don't know who that is, but I don't like them at all.

What's the issue with it?

[Hediacrana]

On this issue, I believe Julia Serano's take is really helpful.

What a ridiculously shitty take. I don't know who that is, but I don't like them at all.

She's a biologist and fairly well-known (though, now that she is in her fifties, probably less known with the youngest generations of people invested in trans issues) trans activist. In a nutshell, she argues, among other things, that gender both has a basis in biology (including neurobiology) and simultaneously is also shaped by culture, and that denying either aspect is false as well as harmful.

[Cekoviu]

What a ridiculously shitty take. I don't know who that is, but I don't like them at all.

What's the issue with it?

It's lazy centrism that prioritizes making both sides of the argument happy and therefore inflates psycho-/sociological aspects and implies that aberrant genders aren't mistakes. It also overemphasizes gender minorities and pretends that determinism can't or doesn't address transgender people. It's not as bad of a take as full-on social constructivism, but it's not that much better.

[Cekoviu]

What a ridiculously shitty take. I don't know who that is, but I don't like them at all.

She's a biologist and fairly well-known (though, now that she is in her fifties, probably less known with the youngest generations of people invested in trans issues) trans activist. In a nutshell, she argues, among other things, that gender both has a basis in biology (including neurobiology) and simultaneously is also shaped by culture, and that denying either aspect is false as well as harmful.

The realization of gender can be shaped by culture, but I am vehemently opposed to the notion that culture itself could affect the development of gender.

[Hediacrana]

What's the issue with it?

It's lazy centrism that prioritizes making both sides of the argument happy and therefore inflates psycho-/sociological aspects and implies that aberrant genders aren't mistakes. It also overemphasizes gender minorities and pretends that determinism can't or doesn't address transgender people. It's not as bad of a take as full-on social constructivism, but it's not that much better.

You made up your mind about her within three minutes of me linking to her. If you took a bit more time to consider what she has to say, you might come to the conclusion that there is nothing lazy or centrist about her stance.

[Cekoviu]

It's lazy centrism that prioritizes making both sides of the argument happy and therefore inflates psycho-/sociological aspects and implies that aberrant genders aren't mistakes. It also overemphasizes gender minorities and pretends that determinism can't or doesn't address transgender people. It's not as bad of a take as full-on social constructivism, but it's not that much better.

You made up your mind about her within three minutes of me linking to her. If you took a bit more time to consider what she has to say, you might come to the conclusion that there is nothing lazy or centrist about her stance.

Perhaps. But that blog post does not yield a good first impression and I don't have the desire to read one of her books.

[Hediacrana]

She's a biologist and fairly well-known (though, now that she is in her fifties, probably less known with the youngest generations of people invested in trans issues) trans activist. In a nutshell, she argues, among other things, that gender both has a basis in biology (including neurobiology) and simultaneously is also shaped by culture, and that denying either aspect is false as well as harmful.

The realization of gender can be shaped by culture, but I am vehemently opposed to the notion that culture itself could affect the development of gender.

Just to clarify: what do you mean by the realization of gender and the development of gender? Just wanting to make sure I understand you correctly before going further.

[Sundiata]

I attended a talk with several priests on this matter, aside from that I've had cordial conversations with members of this community. That's as far as my experience goes.

I presume that things will get better.

[The Rich Port]

I mean, my point is that if gender is a social construct, that presents a problem for the trans community because then dysphoria is intangible and based on social conditioning, not internal psychology, and as a result does not present a particular reason for acceptance. It, in short, reduces transgender status to opinion rather than reality. And opinion can be debated, which undermines the legitimacy of trans activism.

I agree that it will make trans activism more difficult. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Well I mean. Hehe. That's also assuming we have to justify ourselves to literally anybody.

We don't have to justify our existence to fucking nobody. And especially not Christians.

[Loben The 2nd]

I agree that it will make trans activism more difficult. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Well I mean. Hehe. That's also assuming we have to justify ourselves to literally anybody.

We don't have to justify our existence to fucking nobody. And especially not Christians.

i feel that is a tad bit targeted.

[The Rich Port]

Well I mean. Hehe. That's also assuming we have to justify ourselves to literally anybody.

We don't have to justify our existence to fucking nobody. And especially not Christians.

i feel that is a tad bit targeted.

... It was?

Muscovite's a Christian of some kind, and Ifreann was responding to him.

[Loben The 2nd]

i feel that is a tad bit targeted.

... It was?

Muscovite's a Christian of some kind, and Ifreann was responding to him.

towards Christians in general.

i mean why not point out other religions too? Judaism, Islam.

or do you have something against Christianity since its the apparent *vogue* thing to attack now?

[Sundiata]

We don't have to justify our existence to fucking nobody. And especially not Christians.

Hey now.

[The Rich Port]

... It was?

Muscovite's a Christian of some kind, and Ifreann was responding to him.

towards Christians in general.

i mean why not point out other religions too? Judaism, Islam.

or do you have something against Christianity since its the apparent *vogue* thing to attack now?

... Did I fucking stutter?

Is Muscovite a fucking Jew or a Muslim?

Maybe you just feel personally attacked because you're overly sensitive.

We don't have to justify our existence to fucking nobody. And especially not Christians.

Hey now.

Well, like my dood in the White House Mick Mulvaney said, get over it

Ah, but seriously... We don't have to justify ourselves to anybody.

I attended a talk with several priests on this matter, aside from that I've had cordial conversations with members of this community. That's as far as my experience goes.

I presume that things will get better.

As a former and current pseudo-Catholic, the Church moves centuries too slow, but I also hope things get better. What was the consensus, if any? What did you discuss at this meeting?

I was hopeful with Francis's more progressive stances, but it's what made me realize just how slow the Church moves. They're still stuck in the 1950's, what with their opposition to contraception. In fact, in Puerto Rico they still called them "prophylactics".

[Salus Maior]

I mean, my point is that if gender is a social construct, that presents a problem for the trans community because then dysphoria is intangible and based on social conditioning, not internal psychology, and as a result does not present a particular reason for acceptance. It, in short, reduces transgender status to opinion rather than reality. And opinion can be debated, which undermines the legitimacy of trans activism.

I agree that it will make trans activism more difficult. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

In which case, that would make transgenderism open to philosophical criticism.

[Sundiata]

Social construct =/= not literally existing

I remember some TERF I knew IRL saying "if gender isn't real, then why do trans people transition?"

People have bodily autonomy, besides they transition to relieve gender dysphoria or increase gender euphoria. Those are reasons why, and believe in gender as social constructs goes in rejection that gender is strictly biological, being determined by sex traits.

Well, ultimately they transition because of their dysphoria. That's always been my understanding.

[Salus Maior]

I was hopeful with Francis's more progressive stances, but it's what made me realize just how slow the Church moves. They're still stuck in the 1950's, what with their opposition to contraception. In fact, in Puerto Rico they still called them "prophylactics".

More like they're stuck in the 1960's.

[Sundiata]

As a former and current pseudo-Catholic, the Church moves centuries too slow, but I also hope things get better. What was the consensus, if any? What did you discuss at this meeting?

I was hopeful with Francis's more progressive stances, but it's what made me realize just how slow the Church moves. They're still stuck in the 1950's, what with their opposition to contraception. In fact, in Puerto Rico they still called them "prophylactics".

The priest spoke on why the sexes exist respectively: reproduction. He also emphasized that people who struggle with gender dysphoria should be treated with compassion because of their high suicide rate. In summation, Catholics have a responsibility to bring people with gender dysphoria into the welcoming arms of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.