TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Mettaton-EX]

"rich" relies on the reality of private property, which is, wait for it, a social construct

If gender is a social construct what if anything separates being transgender from being a juggalo in terms of legitimacy?

you still don't get what a social construct is. fucking species is a social construct, but that doesn't make "being human" illegitimate

[Des-Bal]

you still don't get what a social construct is. fucking species is a social construct, but that doesn't make "being human" illegitimate

Which is why Otherkin and Transgender are equally valid things to be. Just eschewing social constructs.

Little, though that's not to say that being cisgender would be any more valid.
Fortunately it's not an issue, because gender is not a social construct.

Of course it's not. On the subject of gender not being a social construct I read a thing.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/P2nYKqw ... -illusions

My general supposition was that gender was biological and and that some combination of natal conditions or genetics could cause the brain to understand the body incorrectly causing dysphoria. Based on some of the findings here dysphoria may in fact be a form of dissociation caused by low uptake in NMDA receptors. It's very speculative and not much has been done to follow up but a whole lot of things line up if it's true.


Why are there more transgender women than transgender men? Because cisgender women have higher levels of estrogen which would correlate to lower levels of hypofunction in NDMA receptors. This ties right into previous research showing the prevalence of fucked up estrogen receptors in transgender men.

Why are transgender women overwhelmingly more likely to be lesbians than cisgender women? Because dissociation doesn't actually create a female brain it just fucks with your perception of self.

Why is there such a high incidence of autism and schizophrenia in the transgender population? Because they're all associated with fucked up NDMA receptors and all of them seem to be helped by estrogen.

I think a study on what happens to reports of dysphoria when transgender men are treated with estrogen on a large scale would be as fascinating as it would probably be unethical.

[Proctopeo]

If gender is a social construct what if anything separates being transgender from being a juggalo in terms of legitimacy?

you still don't get what a social construct is. fucking species is a social construct, but that doesn't make "being human" illegitimate

>unironically linking a Tumblr post in an argument

[Mettaton-EX]

you still don't get what a social construct is. fucking species is a social construct, but that doesn't make "being human" illegitimate

>unironically linking a Tumblr post in an argument

feel free to actually make a coherent argument against it

[Proctopeo]

>unironically linking a Tumblr post in an argument

feel free to actually make a coherent argument against it

Don't have to :^)

[Cekoviu]

If gender is a social construct what if anything separates being transgender from being a juggalo in terms of legitimacy?

you still don't get what a social construct is. fucking species is a social construct, but that doesn't make "being human" illegitimate

That's ridiculous and it's very inappropriate for a supposed evolutionary biologist to try to relate those two things, but I can't think of exactly how to explain why. Anyway, the argument here essentially reduces to a philosophical argument that trying to classify anything spectral is inherently social and there aren't real lines. This is completely idiotic, though, because all this proves is that the gender binary is socially constructed. It indicates nothing about whether gender itself is a social construct.

[The Rich Port]

feel free to actually make a coherent argument against it

Don't have to :^)

And he also doesn't have to, frankly.

Something being a construct doesn't make it invalid.

You're just being pedantic.

[Mettaton-EX]

you still don't get what a social construct is. fucking species is a social construct, but that doesn't make "being human" illegitimate

Which is why Otherkin and Transgender are equally valid things to be. Just eschewing social constructs.

this is an incoherent argument. not all social constructs are the same.

[Novus America]

Don't have to :^)

And he also doesn't have to, frankly.

Something being a construct doesn't make it invalid.

You're just being pedantic.

Though that Tumblr post says sex is a social construct, which is absurd because basically all animals recognize the existence of sex. And that it is something that can generally be determined through objective criterion.
Of course animals do also exhibit gender roles in many cases.

[Antityranicals]

I'm sure this question is going to invoke a few "How stupid are you?" responses, but could someone explain to me what exactly the difference between gender and sex is? I know what sex is, but is gender just a mindset?

[Cekoviu]

I'm sure this question is going to invoke a few "How stupid are you?" responses, but could someone explain to me what exactly the difference between gender and sex is? I know what sex is, but is gender just a mindset?

Sex is a set of a variety of physical traits, some of which can be changed and some of which can't; its definition varies depending on whom you ask. Gender is a complex neurological entity with no clear definition, but it's definitely something that can be observed in your self-perception (so somewhat of a mindset, kind of?). Regardless of what it actually is, it can't be actively controlled.

[Antityranicals]

I'm sure this question is going to invoke a few "How stupid are you?" responses, but could someone explain to me what exactly the difference between gender and sex is? I know what sex is, but is gender just a mindset?

Sex is a set of a variety of physical traits, some of which can be changed and some of which can't; its definition varies depending on whom you ask. Gender is a complex neurological entity with no clear definition, but it's definitely something that can be observed in your self-perception (so somewhat of a mindset, kind of?). Regardless of what it actually is, it can't be actively controlled.

So a mindset that can't be controlled? Is it an element of the subconscious?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Mad for it not just being the sceptics and outright phobes in the thread arguing gender to be purely a social construct. Watch those health and sanity bars drain under a constant stream of friendly fire from people claiming to be part of the community. Best of all you can't say shit or you get gaslit as "the real problem" and screamed at for being truscum. I fucking love this generation.

[Antityranicals]

Mad for it not just being the sceptics and outright phobes in the thread arguing gender to be purely a social construct. Watch those health and sanity bars drain under a constant stream of friendly fire from people claiming to be part of the community. Best of all you can't say shit or you get gaslit as "the real problem" and screamed at for being truscum. I fucking love this generation.

Hey, I'll admit I'm pretty skeptical about this whole trans business, but if gender isn't a social construct, and it isn't biological, than what is it? I'm seriously curious.

[Cekoviu]

Why are there more transgender women than transgender men? Because cisgender women have higher levels of estrogen which would correlate to lower levels of hypofunction in NDMA receptors. This ties right into previous research showing the prevalence of fucked up estrogen receptors in transgender men.

Slow your roll there, kiddo. What are you basing the skewed count on? I recall reading a study that put them near each other in population, though I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

Why are transgender women overwhelmingly more likely to be lesbians than cisgender women? Because dissociation doesn't actually create a female brain it just fucks with your perception of self.

That makes me curious about straight trans women - iirc they constitute at least 20% of trans women, higher than the percentage of homosexual men. Could this be a result of a separate process leading to being trans, if it is indeed true that NDMA receptor hypofunction is the cause?
Bisexual people also constitute a much larger proportion of trans women than cis men and I'd be curious about that too.

I think a study on what happens to reports of dysphoria when transgender men are treated with estrogen on a large scale would be as fascinating as it would probably be unethical.

Extraordinarily, yes. It's too bad that mice don't exhibit gender dysphoria.

[Cekoviu]

Sex is a set of a variety of physical traits, some of which can be changed and some of which can't; its definition varies depending on whom you ask. Gender is a complex neurological entity with no clear definition, but it's definitely something that can be observed in your self-perception (so somewhat of a mindset, kind of?). Regardless of what it actually is, it can't be actively controlled.

So a mindset that can't be controlled? Is it an element of the subconscious?

Yes, no, and/or maybe.

[Cekoviu]

Mad for it not just being the sceptics and outright phobes in the thread arguing gender to be purely a social construct. Watch those health and sanity bars drain under a constant stream of friendly fire from people claiming to be part of the community. Best of all you can't say shit or you get gaslit as "the real problem" and screamed at for being truscum. I fucking love this generation.

Hey, I'll admit I'm pretty skeptical about this whole trans business, but if gender isn't a social construct, and it isn't biological, than what is it? I'm seriously curious.

It is biological. It's almost certainly neurological in some way. We just don't know exactly how.

[Novus America]

Hey, I'll admit I'm pretty skeptical about this whole trans business, but if gender isn't a social construct, and it isn't biological, than what is it? I'm seriously curious.

It is biological. It's almost certainly neurological in some way. We just don't know exactly how.

Although this is of course controversial, and risks issues there have been studies showing it sometimes manifests as actually slightly different brain structure and activity in many cases.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112351.htm

One of the biggest issues is that most animals cannot really talk, and obviously human experimentation is quite a ethically fraught area, limiting what studies can be done.

For example it is possible to modify a mouse’s sexual characteristics, but not ask it how it feels about it, and obviously it probably has little to no understanding of gender as we understand it, although some animals do exhibit gender roles (in most cases these align with the biological sex but there are cases where an animal will exhibit gender roles different than its biological sex).

Of course the issue is we cannot easily define gender simply by gender roles.

[Hediacrana]

you still don't get what a social construct is. fucking species is a social construct, but that doesn't make "being human" illegitimate

>unironically linking a Tumblr post in an argument

Or, you know, you could just actually engage with Mettaton's argument...

[Des-Bal]

Or, you know, you could just actually engage with Mettaton's argument...

That species and gender are both biological and that the people calling then social constructs are ultimately just taking refuge in ambiguities of language that dont begin to address the actual issue? Whose arguing?

[Grenartia]

gender is not a social construct.

Entirely debatable, since genes and hormones cannot adequately explain all of the varied nuances of gender.

>unironically linking a Tumblr post in an argument

feel free to actually make a coherent argument against it

Because identifying as a blobfish cannot give you any of the traits that distinguish humans from blobfish. Species is definitely determined by DNA. Everything about the human experience can be adequately explained by our DNA (excepting social experiences and whatnot, but our DNA allows our brains to do things like develop social conplexities like gender, language, and the countless technologies on which we currently rely for our current living standards), just as everything about the blobfish experience can be determined by blobfish DNA.

Anyway, the argument here essentially reduces to a philosophical argument that trying to classify anything spectral is inherently social and there aren't real lines. This is completely idiotic,

I think this is a perfect encapsulation of the problem with that line of thinking.

Sex is a set of a variety of physical traits, some of which can be changed and some of which can't; its definition varies depending on whom you ask. Gender is a complex neurological entity with no clear definition, but it's definitely something that can be observed in your self-perception (so somewhat of a mindset, kind of?). Regardless of what it actually is, it can't be actively controlled.

So a mindset that can't be controlled? Is it an element of the subconscious?

Honestly, I don't think we really know what gender is at this point. However, the best models to describe it come from psychology, not biology, so we can safely assume it is a psychological phenomenon of some sort.

Hey, I'll admit I'm pretty skeptical about this whole trans business, but if gender isn't a social construct, and it isn't biological, than what is it? I'm seriously curious.

It is biological. It's almost certainly neurological in some way. We just don't know exactly how.

I mean, sure, but by that logic, all of psychology is biology. Which may or may not seem absurd to you and anyone else, but by the same logic, all of biology (including medicine) is chemistry, and all of chemistry is physics. Which would seem to imply that anyone with a PhD in physics can diagnose any biological or psychological ailment, which should be an obviously absurd statement to any reasonable person.

In essence, at a certain point, the specialization of a complex field of study becomes a field of study unto itself that experts from the parent field can no longer adequately model.

Neuroscience certainly is at the interface of biology and psychology, but it certainly seems like the psychological models of gender are more accurate than the biological ones.

[Des-Bal]

Slow your roll there, kiddo. What are you basing the skewed count on? I recall reading a study that put them near each other in population, though I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

That makes me curious about straight trans women - iirc they constitute at least 20% of trans women, higher than the percentage of homosexual men. Could this be a result of a separate process leading to being trans, if it is indeed true that NDMA receptor hypofunction is the cause?
Bisexual people also constitute a much larger proportion of trans women than cis men and I'd be curious about that too.


Extraordinarily, yes. It's too bad that mice don't exhibit gender dysphoria.

If you find them let me know. I've heard different numbers but never parity. Here's a rough meta analysis that swings up and down but never gets as low as 2:1.
http://tgmentalhealth.com/2010/03/31/th ... genderism/


I think it's a hard question because we understand Gay and Transgender in terms of phenomena mainly self reporting and non-heterosexual attraction. What causes ankle pain? Like a billion things that aren't even kind of related. Is there more than one thing we understand to be "Gay" is there more than one thing we understand to be "Transgender?" We don't know.

It's possible depending on what the exact mechanisms of dysphoria are. Animals outside the family unit respond to maned lionesses as though they're male and they behave as though they're male towards predators and lions from outside the family unit. Of course it's difficult to say how much of that is just excess testosterone and we're ultimately back at the issue of the most effective course of action would be super unethical.

https://www.sciencealert.com/why-do-the ... have-manes

[Cekoviu]

gender is not a social construct.

Entirely debatable, since genes and hormones cannot adequately explain all of the varied nuances of gender.

Oof, big swing and a miss with that one. They absolutely could, although whether they actually do so alone could be argued. Don't underestimate the power of genes, and recall that the human genome is 3 Gb (haploid) long.

Anyway, the argument here essentially reduces to a philosophical argument that trying to classify anything spectral is inherently social and there aren't real lines. This is completely idiotic,

I think this is a perfect encapsulation of the problem with that line of thinking.

Nice job cutting out the operative clause there. Did the Climategate people teach you how to do that?

So a mindset that can't be controlled? Is it an element of the subconscious?

Honestly, I don't think we really know what gender is at this point. However, the best models to describe it come from psychology, not biology, so we can safely assume it is a psychological phenomenon of some sort.

In 1500 AD: "The best models to describe the diversity of life come from religion, so we can safely assume it is a supernatural phenomenon of some sort."

It is biological. It's almost certainly neurological in some way. We just don't know exactly how.

I mean, sure, but by that logic, all of psychology is biology.

I'll cut you off here. I'm not saying it's pychological. I'm saying it's neurological, and given that the brain is formally a physical construction associated with a significant portion of life, it falls under the jurisdiction of biology.

[Cekoviu]

Slow your roll there, kiddo. What are you basing the skewed count on? I recall reading a study that put them near each other in population, though I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

That makes me curious about straight trans women - iirc they constitute at least 20% of trans women, higher than the percentage of homosexual men. Could this be a result of a separate process leading to being trans, if it is indeed true that NDMA receptor hypofunction is the cause?
Bisexual people also constitute a much larger proportion of trans women than cis men and I'd be curious about that too.


Extraordinarily, yes. It's too bad that mice don't exhibit gender dysphoria.

If you find them let me know. I've heard different numbers but never parity. Here's a rough meta analysis that swings up and down but never gets as low as 2:1.
http://tgmentalhealth.com/2010/03/31/th ... genderism/

There's significant flaws there, but it's the best we've got, so ok then.

I think it's a hard question because we understand Gay and Transgender in terms of phenomena mainly self reporting and non-heterosexual attraction. What causes ankle pain? Like a billion things that aren't even kind of related. Is there more than one thing we understand to be "Gay" is there more than one thing we understand to be "Transgender?" We don't know.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying as well. No arguments here.

It's possible depending on what the exact mechanisms of dysphoria are. Animals outside the family unit respond to maned lionesses as though they're male and they behave as though they're male towards predators and lions from outside the family unit. Of course it's difficult to say how much of that is just excess testosterone and we're ultimately back at the issue of the most effective course of action would be super unethical.

https://www.sciencealert.com/why-do-the ... have-manes

Interesting thoughts.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The problem with the "gender is a social construct" theory is that, while trying to be progressive, it actually delegitimizes trans people because it reduces the experience of the trans person to an intangible feeling that can be dismissed by the opponents of trans people, whereas the biological/neurological theory legitimizes gender dysphoria in a way that even the most ardent conservative can't dismiss, and actually forces them into a losing argument where they have to argue for subjecting people to suffering based on their (the conservative's) feelings. The end result hopefully being that a conservative who values empathy will change their mind, as has happened in numerous cases around the world.